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If one part of the bible is not literally true is the entire bible is false?

I think that most Christians would argue that the oneness is in both purpose and being. If there is more than one God, then the Old Testament is a lie. Moreover, Paul would be a liar as well.

"We know that an idol is nothing in the world. and that there is none other God but one." 1 Corinthians 8:4

"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 John 5:7

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all." Galatians 13:14

Now, one could argue that the Mormon interpretation / view of the trinity is close enough to the protestant one that the differences are largely irrelevant. However, this is simply not the case with Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that God the Father and Christ are both separate and unequal. If that is not a heresy, then what is a heresy?

Jesus praying to himself and answering himself is way too weird for me. The separate beings but one in unity and purpose fits all the verses imo. The LDS would view it as sons and daughters of God worships the one true God Heavenly Father, who wants all of His children to become one in Him in holiness and righteousness just as Jesus has become one in Him, has become like Him. As far as who is Christian or not, I think Christ will make that decision. We all live in glass houses imho.
 
Jesus praying to himself and answering himself is way too weird for me. The separate beings but one in unity and purpose fits all the verses imo. The LDS would view it as sons and daughters of God worships the one true God Heavenly Father, who wants all of His children to become one in Him in holiness and righteousness just as Jesus has become one in Him, has become like Him. As far as who is Christian or not, I think Christ will make that decision. We all live in glass houses imho.

This whole thing came about because someone earlier in the thread stated some belief that Jehovah's Witnesses supposedly have and then said "and they are as Christian as it gets". I then pointed out that Christians do not consider Jehovah's Witnesses Christian, and was told UtahBill that I was a bigot for saying it.

Now, what is funny to me is that I am supposed to be a bigot because I say that because JWs deny the very nature of the Christian God, they are by definition not Christian. Then the same individual that accuses me of being a bigot proceeds to tell me how all of mainstream Christianity is wrong about the nature of God and for some odd reason does not see the irony and hypocrisy in doing so.

Now, I don't care what people believe or do not believe. I am a pretty liberal Christian, almost a universalist actually. I am an Episcopalian for crying out loud, a lot of evangelical Christians think we are some apostasy because we are so tolerant of others. My point stands though, Jehovah's Witnesses are not "as Christian as it gets", they don't represent the views of the world's 2 billion some odd Christians. Thats all I was pointing out when I got jumped on.

As to Jesus praying to himself. Jesus was both man and God. That was the humanity of Jesus. Jesus the man praying.
 
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Now, one could argue that the Mormon interpretation / view of the trinity is close enough to the protestant one that the differences are largely irrelevant. However, this is simply not the case with Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that God the Father and Christ are both separate and unequal. If that is not a heresy, then what is a heresy?
The way I see it, one's view of the trinity is not even relevant to determine who is a christian. It is how we follow the teachings of christ that determines our status. Judging others over trivial matters is not supposed to be a christian act, but many evangelicals do just that.
Christ made it VERY clear, when he discussed how we should treat each other in Matthew 25....and if you will not do those things, none of the rest matters....no matter the brand of christian religion.
But surely, if we want to be called christian, we should work together rather than call each other names that demean our christian efforts. If JW, 7th day adventists, mormons, etc. say they follow the christian teachings, and their lives show it to be true, then they have every right to use the term to describe themselves. But if all they do is talk about it, claim to believe but do nothing to prove it, then they are hyprocrites. James 2:19 says
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble".
 
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The way I see it, one's view of the trinity is not even relevant to determine who is a christian. It is how we follow the teachings of christ that determines our status. Judging others over trivial matters is not supposed to be a christian act, but many evangelicals do just that.
Christ made it VERY clear, when he discussed how we should treat each other in Matthew 25....and if you will not do those things, none of the rest matters....no matter the brand of christian religion.
But surely, if we want to be called christian, we should work together rather than call each other names that demean our christian efforts. If JW, 7th day adventists, mormons, etc. say they follow the christian teachings, and their lives show it to be true, then they have every right to use the term to describe themselves. But if all they do is talk about it, claim to believe but do nothing to prove it, then they are hyprocrites. James 2:19 says
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble".

But you are talking about actions, and that is all well and good, and good works should be the fruit of faith. However, if being a good person is what determines whether you are a Christian or not, then many Buddhists are Christians, as well as many Muslims, Hindus, and for that matter Atheists and Agnostics.
 
.

Now, what is funny to me is that I am supposed to be a bigot because I say that because JWs deny the very nature of the Christian God, they are by definition not Christian. Then the same individual that accuses me of being a bigot proceeds to tell me how all of mainstream Christianity is wrong about the nature of God and for some odd reason does not see the irony and hypocrisy in doing so.

Now, I don't care what people believe or do not believe. I am a pretty liberal Christian, almost a universalist actually. I am an Episcopalian for crying out loud, a lot of evangelical Christians think we are some apostasy because we are so tolerant of others. My point stands though, Jehovah's Witnesses are not "as Christian as it gets", they don't represent the views of the world's 2 billion some odd Christians. Thats all I was pointing out when I got jumped on.

As to Jesus praying to himself. Jesus was both man and God. That was the humanity of Jesus. Jesus the man praying.
The problem here is whenever one denomination tries to claim the title of christian for themselves and seeks to deny others. None of us clearly understands the nature of God thanks to the different verses in the bible that may have been manipulated by man to confuse us. So if none of us clearly understands, it is arrogant to claim to be the only ones to have the truth.
 
But you are talking about actions, and that is all well and good, and good works should be the fruit of faith. However, if being a good person is what determines whether you are a Christian or not, then many Buddhists are Christians, as well as many Muslims, Hindus, and for that matter Atheists and Agnostics.

Doing good works is not the standard for being a christian, it is the standard for being a good person. But it should be obvious that to be a good christian, you should first be a good person, as well as a follower of the teachings of Christ.
 
The problem here is whenever one denomination tries to claim the title of christian for themselves and seeks to deny others. None of us clearly understands the nature of God thanks to the different verses in the bible that may have been manipulated by man to confuse us. So if none of us clearly understands, it is arrogant to claim to be the only ones to have the truth.

I have a problem with one denomination trying to do so as well. I am simply saying that there are some basic beliefs that broadly define all of Christianity. There is such a thing as heresy.
 
I have a problem with one denomination trying to do so as well. I am simply saying that there are some basic beliefs that broadly define all of Christianity. There is such a thing as heresy.

and someday we will likely find out that all christian churches are guilty of heretical preaching...to some extent.
 
For anyone truly interested in the "inerrancy of the bible", read John Romer's book, Testament. He pretty much lays out the history of the bible, including all the additions, omissons, changes, distortions, intrigue, meddling by kings and popes, etc. Sadly, it is still going on....
 
Its interesting to watch how theological debates among Christians continue today. In olden times, you just declared your opposition to be heretics and killed and banished them. Whomever was left standing got their beliefs as the true doctrine. In todays world its not practical to kill or censor the opposing side, so nobody can gain the upper hand. Churches have to find new means of pushing their brand.
 
Its interesting to watch how theological debates among Christians continue today. In olden times, you just declared your opposition to be heretics and killed and banished them. Whomever was left standing got their beliefs as the true doctrine. In todays world its not practical to kill or censor the opposing side, so nobody can gain the upper hand. Churches have to find new means of pushing their brand.

I was raised in a religion that pushed its brand by tearing down the others. It continues to do that today, so much that the members hardly know what their church stands for, only what their church stands against....
 
Re: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

True. Nonetheless, there is evidence. Furthermore, Troy was quite a bit longer ago than the earthly life of Christ and testified to in fewer documents.
In most cases where truth is sought the length of time since the event in question occurred is irrelevant because testimony or hear-say is not anymore credible yesterday than if it was recorded 4000 years ago.

The point is the validity of testimony as a means of demonstrating probability, not the provable assertion.
Testimony offers no objective probability. The only thing worthy within testimony are facts that can be verified. All else is useless because of human fallibility.

There is more to the body of evidence than mere Biblical assertion if one wishes to entertain the possibilities.
And if one examines the merits of all evidence and present day knowledge then alternative explanations are far more accommodating.
 
Relativity is a hoax, so according to your implications, there are not strong supported theories but weaked ones alone.
From an example off the top of my head look up how Mercury's orbit was PRECISELY calculated using Einstein's equations of general relativity.

Tests of general relativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Relativity is NOT a joke. Its not funny.:2rofll:

There is not a single sure evidence that the world is such and such billions years old, because the radiometric dating is not verifiable.
How is it not verifiable? Because we don't have someone writing records saying "its the year 50000 BC... blah blah blah"??? You need to ask yourself how you validate evidence and then ask yourself what kind of evidence would support the age of the earth (if any). :idea:

The "ages" given to earth and the universe are and will be assumptions made only, no more than that.
Welcome to science. Science doesn't PROVE theories. It only SUPPORTS theories. When the support for a theory is substantial its usually held that the theory is truth. However, this can change if substantial evidence arises that contradicts or begs the theory be refined. Einsteins theory of General relativity effectively refines many of the laws of Newtonian physics. IE, Newtonian physics are accurate as far as our senses are concerned but at extremes the inaccuracies of Newtonian physics become apparent and this is where such theories as General Relativity and possibly Super String theory fill in the gaps of the deprecated theories.

The books of science most be modified to explain the calculations made in a more accurate way, like to say, "it is believed that the universe is such and such years old", "we assume that the earth is such and such years old", and so forth.
See previous answer.

By telling the truth in science, you won't have any evidence against what the bible says about creation because "both" calculations or narrations cannot be verified.
You're absolutely right. Narrations like theories will (most likely) never be proven true beyond the shadow of a doubt. HOWEVER, both can be supported. The extravagance and type of claims made by a narration or theory determine the difficulty in which it can be supported. EG, supporting Newtons 2nd law of motion (F=m*a) is easy given current day instruments. However, proving a soul resides in a body..... no one has found a way to support this theory, yet.
 
Re: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

And if one examines the merits of all evidence and present day knowledge then alternative explanations are far more accommodating.
Then, as I said here:
bona puella said:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057627257-post25.html
...you have made a decision concerning the evidence. I would hope you remain open to continued analysis of the evidence and that you would be consistent in applying the same rigor to your evaluations concerning Biblical claims that you would apply to other areas of enquiry.


scourge99 said:
In most cases where truth is sought the length of time since the event in question occurred is irrelevant because testimony or hear-say is not anymore credible yesterday than if it was recorded 4000 years ago.

Testimony offers no objective probability. The only thing worthy within testimony are facts that can be verified. All else is useless because of human fallibility.
There is a legal term called a "preponderance of evidence." It is evidence that is not "proof" or verified, necessarily, but it is usually specific and "convincing." It is not true to assert that only "verifiable" testimony is worthy and all else is useless. There is a preponderance of specific testimonial evidence concerning Jesus and it is testified to in the Bible as well as many more spurious documents. The testimony in the Bible is not all "hear-say," the people involved in the incidents often reported their own experiences: See John, Paul, and Peter primarily.
 
Re: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

Then, as I said here:
And the reason I continue to question those that believe is to discover whether they have valid reasoning for their beliefs that I may not have encountered or considered. The intellectually honest believers acknowledge that they make a leap of faith but do so because they believe the burden of proof is sufficiently satisfied. At this point the discussion usually changes to what criteria and/or methodology should be used to test whether evidence satisfies the burden of proof for believing. Its usually at this point there is much disagreement.


There is a legal term called a "preponderance of evidence." It is evidence that is not "proof" or verified, necessarily, but it is usually specific and "convincing." It is not true to assert that only "verifiable" testimony is worthy and all else is useless. There is a preponderance of specific testimonial evidence concerning Jesus and it is testified to in the Bible as well as many more spurious documents. The testimony in the Bible is not all "hear-say," the people involved in the incidents often reported their own experiences: See John, Paul, and Peter primarily.
Court procedures and protocols are often referenced by those attempting to support their religious beliefs. At such times I find it important to remind these people that though courts seek to establish truth they are contrained by the 6th amendment which requires a speedy trial. Additionally, courts do not dictate positive criteria for reasoning. The courts dodge the issue of describing a positive way to validate guilt and instead define methods which should NOT be used. EG, hear-say is inadmissible; guilt unless there exists a reasonable doub (What is a reasonable doubt if how one should reason is not precisely defined?). These problems make court rulings prone to error hence this is part of the reasoning for appeals courts. In conclusion, if you wish to believe court systems derive truth and wish to reference them as support then you must acknowledge the many flaws and limitations inherent within them as well.
 
Re: Is that some reference to "throwing pearls before swine?"

Court procedures and protocols are often referenced by those attempting to support their religious beliefs. At such times I find it important to remind these people that though courts seek to establish truth they are contrained by the 6th amendment which requires a speedy trial. Additionally, courts do not dictate positive criteria for reasoning. The courts dodge the issue of describing a positive way to validate guilt and instead define methods which should NOT be used. EG, hear-say is inadmissible; guilt unless there exists a reasonable doub (What is a reasonable doubt if how one should reason is not precisely defined?). These problems make court rulings prone to error hence this is part of the reasoning for appeals courts. In conclusion, if you wish to believe court systems derive truth and wish to reference them as support then you must acknowledge the many flaws and limitations inherent within them as well.
Did you see that I mentioned first hand testimony rather than hear-say? You might consider the testimony in the Bible of Paul, John, and Peter sworn affidavits since each were present at such events and occurrences that evidenced Jesus is God. Here's just one example:
John 11: 35 And Jesus wept. 36 The Jews therefore said: Behold how he loved him. 37 But some of them said: Could not he that opened the eyes of the man born blind have caused that this man should not die? 38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself, cometh to the sepulchre. Now it was a cave; and a stone was laid over it. 39 Jesus saith: Take away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith to him: Lord, by this time he stinketh, for he is now of four days. 40 Jesus saith to her: Did not I say to thee that if thou believe, thou shalt see the glory of God? 41 They took therefore the stone away. And Jesus lifting up his eyes, said: Father, I give thee thanks that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people who stand about have I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43 When he had said these things, he cried with a loud voice: Lazarus, come forth. 44 And presently he that had been dead came forth, bound feet and hands with winding bands. And his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus said to them: Loose him and let him go. 45 Many therefore of the Jews, who were come to Mary and Martha and had seen the things that Jesus did, believed in him. 46 But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them the things that Jesus had done.
And swearing to the truth and accuracy:
John 19
[30] When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
[31] Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
[32] So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him;
[33] but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
[34] But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
[35] He who saw it has borne witness -- his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth -- that you also may believe. [36] For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, "Not a bone of him shall be broken."
[37] And again another scripture says, "They shall look on him whom they have pierced."
John 21:
[24] This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

A "speedy trial" is not necessary in the case of Jesus/God. Examine the evidence, consider the testimony, review the history of reasoning that points to a rational faith. Take your time. I suggest Aquinas: SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The existence of God (Prima Pars, Q. 2)
 
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Narrations like theories will (most likely) never be proven true beyond the shadow of a doubt.

By definition, science in genearal cannot be "proven", only supported with evidence. Just to be sure it's understood that this is no weakness of science, it is actually it's strength, and there is no mysterious "proof" that is missing from science. You cna change (most likely) in your mind to (never by definition) IMO. Your argument is more solid than you admit.

Only faith-based assertions cannot be falsified, since they do not appeal evidence. The bible is not true in anything that does not coincide with the evidenced/observable universe. Some stories about certain historical things, my be at some level verfiable or believeable. The rest is not. It's origin in general is questionable since it's a religious text, and the goal of such text is not intended to be a book of history, but a book of faith. Any historical relevance is treated with skepticism.

-Mach
 
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Re: Is that some reference to "throwing pearls before swine?"

Did you see that I mentioned first hand testimony rather than hear-say? You might consider the testimony in the Bible of Paul, John, and Peter sworn affidavits since each were present at such events and occurrences that evidenced Jesus is God. Here's just one example:
And swearing to the truth and accuracy:

I swear I saw Santa Claus today.
I swear I met Zeus yesterday.
I swear I met Vishnu on Saturday.

By your argument we must admit these concepts exist, because after all, I have made and make sworn testimony.

As we can see, your argument is absurd. Testimony is testimony, it is not evidence of the object of the testimony. This is so painfully obvious, why are you missing this?

People are convicted on sworn testimony, that later proves to be false. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE? IF IT"S SWORN TESTIMONY IT"S TRUE!! Because it's not true.

-Mach
 
Its interesting to watch how theological debates among Christians continue today. In olden times, you just declared your opposition to be heretics and killed and banished them. Whomever was left standing got their beliefs as the true doctrine. In todays world its not practical to kill or censor the opposing side, so nobody can gain the upper hand. Churches have to find new means of pushing their brand.

Don't you miss the good ol' days? And you forget that you offered your opponent and his sect the chance to join you and disregard their beliefs before you sent your forces to rape, pillage and murder them in cold blood.
 
“If one part of the bible is not literally true is the entire bible is false?” - obvious Child

There are two ways to interpret the Bible. The Catholics use the allegorical method. The allegorical method of Hermeneutics (the study of Bible interpretation. The name comes from Greek mythology where Hermes was the messenger of the gods or Mercury in the Roman tradition). This type of interpretation was created by the "great thinkers" of ancient Greek society who were embarrassed by their gods (who were created in the image of man vs. the Lord God who created man in His image). They had problems with Homer's Illiad and Odyssey (which were the Greek's equivalent to the Bible). They were embarrassed that their gods got drunk, chased women, kidnapped people, ate their own children, etc. As such they invented the allegorical method of interpretation which basically said that their is a hidden meaning behind the text.

So for clarification, let me offer this example. Their god Kronos didn’t really eat children like the stories said. No, of course not. What the story was actually saying is that Kronos is really the god of time and “eating children” is just another way of saying that time is eating away at all of our lives. In effect, they "spiritualized" the text to make the text say what it does not actually say.

Now all of this would have been “well and good”, but about 200 years before Christ, Jewish scholars borrowed this method of interpretation and applied it to the Old Testament. Some of the stories of the Old Testament embarrassed them (i.e. Noah getting drunk, Abraham lying, God is a "man of war", etc.).

The church fathers began using the allegorical method of Biblical interpretation after the Apostles (who did not use this method of Bible interpretation) passed away from the scene. And all of a sudden they began finding "hidden messages" all over the Bible.

Anyway, as (to what would become the Catholic) church began to develop, allegorist became quite renowned. Origin was one of the best known allegorist as was Augustine. This method of Bible interpretation nearly took over the entire church, however, God always leaves Himself a remnant (a practice that we see involving Isreal throughout the Old Testament). The leaders of the Church of Antioch in Syria rejected this method as did Martin Luther (who was a master allergorist). The Reformation was a Hermeneutical revolution.

Again, by utilizing the allegorical method you are able to make the Scriptures say things that it does not say and God say things that He did not say. And because you have to study the allegorical method to understand Scripture then only the experts (priesthood) can "properly" understand Scripture. This reasoning must be advanced by proponents of the allegorical method to ensure that conflicting interpretations of the Bible do not create confusion / disillusionment among the masses. The net effect is essentially that it takes the Bible out of the hands of ordinary people, which are the same people that the Bible was actually written for.

Now, the Hermeneutical method used by the reformed church is the "Literal, Historical and Grammatical" method. This is one method with three parts. We use this method because it is the method that Christ (who is always our reference) and the Apostles used and not because "somewhere down the line" somebody decided that it was the best method so far.

The "literal" part of this method means that we must take into account that the word used in Scripture means what it would normally mean "literally", in the context in which it is used. In other words, there's no special meaning behind the story of Noah getting drunk. He simply “ties one on".

On the other hand, we must not forget the context in which the word is used. So when Christ says he is a door or a vine, we understand that He is speaking symbolically and not that he is a literal "door" or "vine".

The "historical" part of this method means that we must consider the "setting" of the story. So when Abraham and Sarah decide to have a child through Hagar, they didn't just make up some strange ritual. They were simply adopting a custom of their day to create an heir when it was not biologically possible for the married couple to do so.

The "grammatical" part of this method means that we are simply bound by the rules of grammar. So, for example, where text is written in Hebrew, we must consider the grammatical rules of Hebrew when interpreting the Scriptures.
 
There are two ways to interpret the Bible.
There are more.

The Catholics use the allegorical method. The allegorical method of Hermeneutics (the study of Bible interpretation. The name comes from Greek mythology where Hermes was the messenger of the gods or Mercury in the Roman tradition). This type of interpretation was created by the "great thinkers" of ancient Greek society who were embarrassed by their gods (who were created in the image of man vs. the Lord God who created man in His image). They had problems with Homer's Illiad and Odyssey (which were the Greek's equivalent to the Bible). They were embarrassed that their gods got drunk, chased women, kidnapped people, ate their own children, etc. As such they invented the allegorical method of interpretation which basically said that their is a hidden meaning behind the text.
You could have made your point about Historical-grammatical hermeneutics without the obligatory swipe at the Catholic Church. You are not correct as to how you describe the Church's interpretation of sacred scripture. See: Summary of hermeneutics principles CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hermeneutics



Anyway, as (to what would become the Catholic) church began to develop, allegorist became quite renowned.
Also--you are wrong that the Catholic Church "became" after the Apostles. It was built by Christ and is Biblical. Use the Historical-grammatical method of exegesis on the terms "binding and loosing" and the "keys to the kingdom" to understand when Christ's Church began.

The H/G method is fine and good and well, but it is not the ONE way to know. It, itself, is not "Biblical":

1Tim. 1:1-7
2Pet 1:16-21
 
“There are more.” – Felicity

There are essentially two main disciplines to hermeneutics. But, yes, you are essentially correct. There are those that interpret the Bible is some pretty bizarre ways but as these are not considered “disciplined” (my word) approaches such as the interpretations of Jehovah Witnesses or other cults.

“You could have made your point about Historical-grammatical hermeneutics without the obligatory swipe at the Catholic Church. You are not correct as to how you describe the Church's interpretation of sacred scripture. See: Summary of hermeneutics principles CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hermeneutics” – Felicity

My apologies. I didn’t take any intentional “swipe” at anybody.

And the Catholic Church does take an allegorical approach when interpreting the Scriptures.

Even the link you posted makes mention of allegory. Check out the link to Origin.

“Also--you are wrong that the Catholic Church "became" after the Apostles.” – Felicity

That’s another debate.

“It was built by Christ and is Biblical.” - Felicity

You’ll get no argument from me there.

“Use the Historical-grammatical method of exegesis on the terms "binding and loosing" and the "keys to the kingdom" to understand when Christ's Church began.” - Felicity

Actually, I would be interested in hearing from you what it means.

“The H/G method is fine and good and well, but it is not the ONE way to know. It, itself, is not "Biblical":

1Tim. 1:1-7
2Pet 1:16-21”
– Felicity

I understand what you mean from 2 Peter. But where are you going with 1 Timothy?

And, once again, I apologize. I did not intend to offend you or anyone.
 
“There are more.” – Felicity

There are essentially two main disciplines to hermeneutics. But, yes, you are essentially correct. There are those that interpret the Bible is some pretty bizarre ways but as these are not considered “disciplined” (my word) approaches such as the interpretations of Jehovah Witnesses or other cults.

“You could have made your point about Historical-grammatical hermeneutics without the obligatory swipe at the Catholic Church. You are not correct as to how you describe the Church's interpretation of sacred scripture. See: Summary of hermeneutics principles CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Hermeneutics” – Felicity

My apologies. I didn’t take any intentional “swipe” at anybody.

And the Catholic Church does take an allegorical approach when interpreting the Scriptures.

Even the link you posted makes mention of allegory. Check out the link to Origin.

“Also--you are wrong that the Catholic Church "became" after the Apostles.” – Felicity

That’s another debate.

“It was built by Christ and is Biblical.” - Felicity

You’ll get no argument from me there.

“Use the Historical-grammatical method of exegesis on the terms "binding and loosing" and the "keys to the kingdom" to understand when Christ's Church began.” - Felicity

Actually, I would be interested in hearing from you what it means.

“The H/G method is fine and good and well, but it is not the ONE way to know. It, itself, is not "Biblical":

1Tim. 1:1-7
2Pet 1:16-21”
– Felicity

I understand what you mean from 2 Peter. But where are you going with 1 Timothy?

And, once again, I apologize. I did not intend to offend you or anyone.

Either you confirm to the format of posting and quoting on DP or you choose to stay unreadable and appalling a priory. I cannot understand why you do you have to make yourself unreadable…and appalling… and what have been all this efforts of the makers of DP about – to be wasted in vain … on you..


YOU SUCK!



























big time
 
Re: Is that some reference to "throwing pearls before swine?"

Did you see that I mentioned first hand testimony rather than hear-say? You might consider the testimony in the Bible of Paul, John, and Peter sworn affidavits since each were present at such events and occurrences that evidenced Jesus is God. Here's just one example:
And swearing to the truth and accuracy:
Yet such is no different than me writing a book and the first chapter consists of me "swearing by affidavit" that I was present during certain events and it is my testimony. It doesn't make a difference WHAT the testimony claims it only matters HOW it can be supported. In such cases where extravagant claims are made then the evidence should be substantial to validate the said claims.

A "speedy trial" is not necessary in the case of Jesus/God.
I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it is required of our legal system thus appealing to the courts methods of deriving truth as support for deriving metaphysical truths results in many flaws you do not see or have not addressed.

Examine the evidence, consider the testimony, review the history of reasoning that points to a rational faith.
Using reasoning that points to faith in one religion simultaneously validates faith in others.

Maybe I'll add it to my list of Audio Books to listen to (great for long road trips and escaping the boring drive to work through traffic).
 
There are essentially two main disciplines to hermeneutics. But, yes, you are essentially correct. There are those that interpret the Bible is some pretty bizarre ways but as these are not considered “disciplined” (my word) approaches such as the interpretations of Jehovah Witnesses or other cults.
I still disagree that one can take a general term such as "hermeneutics" and claim there is one that is one method within that blanket term that is more "disciplined" than another and claiming that one religious thought mirrors one school and another mirrors another. This "may" occur, but you are flat out wrong to state the Catholic church uses ONE method, the allegorical method. She does not use merely ONE method as your post describes and maligns unfairly. Furthermore, the allegorical interpretation is not something that stands alone as a means to know the depth and breadth of the Biblical message, it is one avenue for some areas of Scripture, but it is NEVER a definitive interpretation by the very FACT that allegory does not MAKE definitive statements. Allegory as for delving into symbolic/representative meaning apart from the foundational beliefs of Christianity. If you rely merely on the H/G method of Biblical exegesis, "you are the salt of the earth" becomes silly UNTIL you turn to the metaphorical meaning. Historically and grammatically it is meaningless, metaphorically/allegorically, the depth and breadth of the meaning becomes clear both symbolically and literally. However, again--allegory is merely ONE means of coming to know. If exegesis tries to find the one and only key to understanding all of scripture, the exegete will inevitably amputate some of the richness of God's revelation in favor of the human desire for expedience.

A subset of allegory that hold specific significance is typology, and it is a means of coming to know that the Apostle Paul himself names and demonstrates as a means of exegesis of scripture within scripture itself. To make the Catholic use of this sort of exegesis akin to the pagan worship of Greek and Roman gods is indeed insulting, short-sighted, and anti-Biblical. I appreciate that you did not intend to be insulting, but nonetheless, the bias that supports this view of Catholicism is widespread, erroneous, unhistorical, and bigoted. I do not hold you personally responsible for it; I think you are a victim of misinformation and historical revisionism.





And the Catholic Church does take an allegorical approach when interpreting the Scriptures.
Sometimes, yes. Sometimes she uses the H/G method. Thorough exegesis does not fit perfectly into a neat little box labeled the "historical-grammatical hermeneutic" and to try to make it fit that box is to impose a human desire upon the supernatural revelation of God. It becomes a means to hear what man wants to hear in the way he wants to hear it, rather than to remain open to the way God speaks to man through the written Scriptures.

Even the link you posted makes mention of allegory. Check out the link to Origin.
I have not looked at the link yet, I will, but Origin is merely one voice in a chorus of voices, just as allegory is one means of interpretation among myriad that make up the symphony of meaning within Sacred Scripture.


“Use the Historical-grammatical method of exegesis on the terms "binding and loosing" and the "keys to the kingdom" to understand when Christ's Church began.” - Felicity

Actually, I would be interested in hearing from you what it means.
Apply your method. Jesus was very clear in his statement. His grammar was not complicated, and there is specific historical meaning to those terms with regard to how a Jew of Christ's century would hear those words. Another Biblical reference is to the "chair" of Moses which becomes what is now termed the "chair of Peter" or "ex Cathedra."


1Tim. 1:1-7
2Pet 1:16-21” [/B]– Felicity

I understand what you mean from 2 Peter. But where are you going with 1 Timothy?
1 Timothy points to what can occur when one believes the neat little package of interpretation is the one and only way to come to know the revelation of God. 1:4 refers to the "divine training" as described in 2 Peter 1:21, and when one "swerves" from that basic tenet and gives undue credence instead on the human means of coming to know the message of God, the result is vanity.

And, once again, I apologize. I did not intend to offend you or anyone.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Thank you. As I said, I don't hold you personally responsible, but I do feel it necessary to offer the apologetics when I see the misinformation put forth.
 
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