If Harris Loses, Should Democrats Move Right?

[Fiddytree]

More hawkish, more anti-union and tariff? Yes please.

 

[Gatsby]

I didn't vote, but I honestly don't see a correlation between Harris losing and voters moving right. Why would voters give up their inherent beliefs just because she loses? I'm not moving left if Trump loses.

I interpreted it as what the party should do, and what kind of candidates that partisans should support in the future, rather than what they individually should believe.

It's a question of political strategy more than a question of personal ideological beliefs.

 

[Gatsby]

That fair. Trump is perceived as being genuine, sans anyone afflicted with TDS, they'll never see it while they are only seeing red.

Trump is genuine in the sense that he earnestly believes in absolutely nothing, and genuinely doesn't care if anyone believes his lies. In fact, he'd probably prefer you didn't, because then it's more debasing to bend the knee anyway.

 

[Mach]

How so, Democrats are a centrist party?

Pragmatists. Interested in solving problems for the largest number of people, not the elites/rich (mostly anyway).
If a tax cut is needed, will cut taxes. If a hike is needed, will hike. If healthcare is too costly for too poor of an outcome, they will try solutions. That sort of thing.
Fine to cut outdated or unnecessary regulations, also fine with regulations to stop corporate abuses, market abuse, etc.
They may have further left views (and they should), but they will moderate when running in the general. Usually they will also engage in bi-partisanship.

Bill Clinton was fiscally pro-business/markets the likes of which no Republican has ever been. He heated up the economy b so much it tanked (Greenspan's advice)
A libertarian wet dream.

Conservatives are way out of line with their successful efforts to shove religion down people's throats via abortion/trans rights violations.
Tax cuts for the rich, widespread de-regulation without need (rich donors basically). And now the nonsense about illegals being some major national crisis.
None of that is plausibly moderate or pragmatic or seriously focused on real top issues and sensible solutions.

And Trump, that's just naked corruption, crime, and abuse of power...I hope that's not considered left/right on the political spectrum these days, is it?

 

[CLAX1911]

By all accounts this is accurate.


I guess we differ on that single point.

I'll explain. I think there is something way more important regarding candidates effecting her and that's likeability. She comes off as a scolding nag. And I'm curious how many Democrats didn't like her because she's a woman.

Being genuine is something which can't be faked, and Harris seems to have a problem being perceived as being genuine. Hillary has the same problem.

I think if she was genuine to herself no matter how unpleasant that would be she'd be more likeable by her base.

That fair. Trump is perceived as being genuine, sans anyone afflicted with TDS, they'll never see it while they are only seeing red.
This most recently demonstrated while he was at McDonalds.

Trump isn't trying to be like Reagan he's Trump he direct have to try. It's different from other presidential candidates but that contributes to appeal more than anything else.

Have you noticed how Harris always needs a chaperone? She always seems like she's holding back like her teeth are clinched to avoid letting loose.

Think about how liberating it would be if you stopped caring about criticism. That seems to be where Trump is.

Oh well. So it goes.

Not sure where the loyalty comes from maybe it's part of being in a party.

 

[CLAX1911]

Coming from a Trumpist.

This is pretty unreal.

When was the last time you were called Nazi for disagreeing with someone who supports Trump? I've been called a Nazi for five times this week by leftists.

When I disagree with Trump supporters I don't get that. I'm not told how I hate people or how I'm a bigot for disagreeing with them so I'm not sure that it is.

 

[jaypatriot]

Simple question prompted by this Vox article. Should Kamala lose here in two weeks, do the Democrats need to pivot to the right to gain more voter support?

If Harris loses, expect Democrats to move right

Even though Harris is running as a moderate, progressives are likely to get blamed for her defeat.

www.vox.com

...moderates in the party are seeding the narrative that Harris was doomed by the Biden administration’s excessive deference to left-wing interest groups and aversion to orthodox economics. Some progressives suggest that Harris may be undone by her ties to big business, failure to articulate a “vision for the country,” and complicity in Israeli atrocities in Gaza...

If Progressive/Democrats had moved to the Right years ago then maybe they wouldn't be in such of a tight contest which will be settled in a couple of weeks.
If they lose, then who really cares if they move to the Right?

 

[Jetboogieman]

When was the last time you were called Nazi for disagreeing with someone who supports Trump? I've been called a Nazi for five times this week by leftists.

Trumpist and Nazi are pretty samey so I really don't care if you feel victimized by it.

 

[GIJane]

I interpreted it as what the party should do, and what kind of candidates that partisans should support in the future, rather than what they individually should believe.

It's a question of political strategy more than a question of personal ideological beliefs.

I see where you're thinking. I read it as individuals, not as a group.

Looking in that way, it still seems you're asking your base constituents to give up their base beliefs to win an election. I mean KH has already tried that with her flips on various points and no one really believes her.

 

[eohrnberger]

Trump is genuine in the sense that he earnestly believes in absolutely nothing, and genuinely doesn't care if anyone believes his lies. In fact, he'd probably prefer you didn't, because then it's more debasing to bend the knee anyway.

You observe the interactions Trump has with people, at the McDonalds, on pod casts, any number of venues, he connect and relates to every day people. This is something that Harris is simply not capable of doing without coming of as ingenuine.

I also did make mention that a honest assessment of this wasn't going to happen from people who are seeing TDS red, didn't I?

 

[eohrnberger]

I'll explain. I think there is something way more important regarding candidates effecting her and that's likeability.

My thoughts on this I've put in post #185.

She comes off as a scolding nag.

She's not likeable, she doesn't related or connect with people, she constantly appears to be uncomfortable around other people in an intimate (physically close) setting.

And I'm curious how many Democrats didn't like her because she's a woman.

I wouldn't even want to take a guess, and it's something that will never even be looked at.

I think if she was genuine to herself no matter how unpleasant that would be she'd be more likeable by her base.

Quite possibly.

Trump isn't trying to be like Reagan he's Trump he direct have to try. It's different from other presidential candidates but that contributes to appeal more than anything else.

Have you noticed how Harris always needs a chaperone? She always seems like she's holding back like her teeth are clinched to avoid letting loose.

Hmm. And you wonder why her husband was off with the nanny?

Think about how liberating it would be if you stopped caring about criticism. That seems to be where Trump is.

I don't think he ever did care about criticism.

Not sure where the loyalty comes from maybe it's part of being in a party.

. . . or a cult?

 

[DrewPaul]

I have faith that Trump will be defeated. Trump is a threat to all Americans even you. Harris is just the vehicle that Americans will rally around to defeat the danger. Real Presidents come and go but our Constitution remains forever. Americans never pledge allegiance to any individual. You should know this.

I do know, I served in the military and swore an oath to uphold the constitution.

Yes, Republicans should also move to the center. Trying to overthrow the government, calling legal immigrants animals, pledging to gut social security, and promising a 20% tariff across the board are quite bad ideas.

No one is going to or planning overthrow the government. Who is pledging to gut SS? Even if they did plan it they certainly wouldn't say it. That would be political suicide. Did you hear this from the other side of the aisle?

Who is planning an across the board tariff and who did you hear that from? Trump has said he might raise the tariff up to 200% on certain items. I don't know if that will work or not but I do know what the intention is. To make building and making things in the USA more attractive. Trump sees the USA as the trading jewel of the world. He sees the USA as a huge benefit to other countries to do business with and so the USA should be compensated for that reason. You're aware of some of the reasons other countries produce widgets cheaper...practically slave labor and no regard for the environment.

I (like many conservatives I know) have high regard for humans especially working people coming here to improve their lives. I have the most regard for people who apply legally and go through the hoops to become citizens. The USA immigrates 1 million a year the most in the world. These are people who love our country, respect it and are often better citizens than people who live here. A bi-partisan pledge should be made to double that amount. Streamline the process.

Likewise, Democrats should stop playing footsie with left-wing lunatics who want to defund the police; stop talking about "gender identity" and sex changes for minors; and stop hemming and hawing about inflation and the border crisis (which were genuinely quite bad until recently).

They should. I believe a certain % of liberals themselves wish the far left would tamp it down. I think its embarrassing to say you're a liberal and then have to defend these absurd positions. But I think they're far too invested in identity politics to stop now.

 

[craig]

Right because Reagan and Gingrich and Bush were so beloved by the left. lol

Those Rhinos?

 

[dairyair]

@Gardener did not make the statement evoking the question. My question is open for anyone to attempt an answer. I'd surely be interested in reading a good faith attempt at doing so.

Whites are not a minority.

Here's a chart.

...xxx

US population by year, race, age, ethnicity, & more

The ages, races, and population density of the United States tell a story. Understand the shifts in demographic trends with these charts visualizing decades of population data.

usafacts.org

 

[Mike1950]

Or is the real question whether they should simply adopt the tactics of the right.
I'm not advocating this as much as just throwing it out there.

 

[iguanaman]

I do know, I served in the military and swore an oath to uphold the constitution.

No one is going to or planning overthrow the government. Who is pledging to gut SS? Even if they did plan it they certainly wouldn't say it. That would be political suicide. Did you hear this from the other side of the aisle?

Who is planning an across the board tariff and who did you hear that from? Trump has said he might raise the tariff up to 200% on certain items. I don't know if that will work or not but I do know what the intention is. To make building and making things in the USA more attractive. Trump sees the USA as the trading jewel of the world. He sees the USA as a huge benefit to other countries to do business with and so the USA should be compensated for that reason. You're aware of some of the reasons other countries produce widgets cheaper...practically slave labor and no regard for the environment.

I (like many conservatives I know) have high regard for humans especially working people coming here to improve their lives. I have the most regard for people who apply legally and go through the hoops to become citizens. The USA immigrates 1 million a year the most in the world. These are people who love our country, respect it and are often better citizens than people who live here. A bi-partisan pledge should be made to double that amount. Streamline the process.



They should. I believe a certain % of liberals themselves wish the far left would tamp it down. I think its embarrassing to say you're a liberal and then have to defend these absurd positions. But I think they're far too invested in identity politics to stop now.

Trump calls for the termination of the Constitution in Truth Social post​

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html

Trump comes clean: Says America should ‘terminate’ the Constitution​

Trump’s predictable first response was declaring — in all caps — “MASSIVE & WIDESPREAD FRAUD AND DECEPTION” and claiming there were only two options: either throw out the 2020 presidential election results and declare him the winner or have a new election.
He then went a big step further, writing: “A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution. Our great ‘Founders’ did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!”
He followed up by posting “UNPRECEDENTED FRAUD REQUIRES UNPRECEDENTED CURE!”
What Trump said Saturday is startlingly different from his previous proclamations of “love” for the Constitution.
It has been apparent for a long time that Trump has never really had much of a grasp of what the Constitution actually says, let alone what the Founders thought or wanted.

And it is hardly news that Trump doesn’t really care about facts and doesn’t allow reality to prevent him from saying whatever he pleases — or engaging in what the philosopher Harry Frankfurt labels “bullshitting.”
If Trump really knew or cared about our Constitution, he would realize that what really is unprecedented in modern American history is his expressed willingness to toss it aside.
Not since the Civil War has a major political figure, or someone who took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, so openly renounced their loyalty to it and disavowed their pledge.

https://thehill.com/opinion/judicia...ys-america-should-terminate-the-constitution/

 

[CLAX1911]

Trumpist and Nazi are pretty samey so I really don't care if you feel victimized by it.

You sound bitter.

 

[iguanaman]

You sound bitter.

You need to listen to the former chairman of the joint chiefs. He knows Trump better than you.

General Mark A. Milley served as the 20th Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the nation's highest-ranking military officer.

 

[CLAX1911]

My thoughts on this I've put in post #185.


She's not likeable, she doesn't related or connect with people, she constantly appears to be uncomfortable around other people in an intimate (physically close) setting.

Yeah that's exactly what I meant. Like she's hiding something.

I wouldn't even want to take a guess, and it's something that will never even be looked at.

I'm sure there are plenty but they like to keep that quiet.

Quite possibly.

Based on how she holds back I'd say she probably uses vulgar language. She acts like my mechanic buddies did around women with their children.

Hmm. And you wonder why her husband was off with the nanny?

I think it's so they can take over when she desperately wants to tell an expletive or slur.

I don't think he ever did care about criticism.

Yeah it is liberating

. . . or a cult?

I'm trying to avoid using that term.

 

[CLAX1911]

You need to listen to the former chairman of the joint chiefs. He knows Trump better than you.

General Mark A. Milley served as the 20th Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the nation's highest-ranking military officer.

Listen to him about what?

 

[iguanaman]

Listen to him about what?

Trump’s former Joint Chiefs chair: Trump is ‘fascist to the core’​

“No one has ever been as dangerous to this country as Donald Trump,” retired Gen. Mark Milley said. “Now I realize he’s a total fascist."

LOL What planet are you from?

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Candidates should run on their views. What they think is best for the country.

They are being disingenuous when they change their views trying to match their perceived temperature of their electorate.

 

[Mach]

Candidates should run on their views. What they think is best for the country.
They are being disingenuous when they change their views trying to match their perceived temperature of their electorate.

I disagree. They are being elected to represent an entire nation, not carry out their personal fantasy.
What they will pass or work on, is far more important than their personal views IMO.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

I disagree. They are being elected to represent an entire nation, not carry out their personal fantasy.
What they will pass or work on, is far more important than their personal views IMO.

To a point.

I think they should tell us who they actually are, because that’s what we get stuck with if they get elected. Not what they want us to believe they are.

 

[CLAX1911]

Trump’s former Joint Chiefs chair: Trump is ‘fascist to the core’​

“No one has ever been as dangerous to this country as Donald Trump,” retired Gen. Mark Milley said. “Now I realize he’s a total fascist."

LOL What planet are you from?

I don't think he would be in a place to say that to anybody else.

Bureaucracy is fascism. So it's like a klansman calling me racist.