If CCW's were easier to get nationwide would crime go down?

[vegas giants]

I dont think so. In my scenario the CCW applicants are thoroughly vetted. Including a comprehensive background check, their bosses , family members, and neighbors interviewed and they have to pass a psych interview. There would also be 20 hours of training ing, both classroom and live fire scenarios where CCW applicants would be trained on the different situations where deadly force could or couldn't be used. The fact is that right now the total amount of CCW holders in the U.S. do NOT kill very many people instead of just "fighting". I've tried to explain that to another poster on this and other threads.

This is your initial position.


20 hours training.


Yes or no

 

[Maidenrules29]

Should I have to get training to get a ccw?

Yes. As a citizen of this country would you want just any schmo who knows nothing about handling a firearm or who may be a hot head ready to pull the trigger on anyone who crosses him to have a CCW to walk around with it all day? Oh I get it, you just caught me not believing that the right to bear arms should not be "infringed in any way" right? I'm sorry but even as a second amendment advocate I know that you cannot give a gun to just anyone. do you want or support the Chicago gang members right to bear arms too? do you want them to have CCW's????

 

[vegas giants]

Yes. As a citizen of this country would you want just any schmo who knows nothing about handling a firearm or who may be a hot head ready to pull the trigger on anyone who crosses him to have a CCW to walk around with it all day? Oh I get it, you just caught me not believing that the right to bear arms should not be "infringed in any way" right? I'm sorry but even as a second amendment advocate I know that you cannot give a gun to just anyone. do you want or support the Chicago gang members right to bear arms too? do you want them to have CCW's????

Then you want much much.much stricter CCW laws than most of America currently has. I have a CCW in Alabama. One page online form for bc. Lasts for 5 years.


No training, no talking to my neighbors

 

[Maidenrules29]

Then you want much much.much stricter CCW laws than most of America currently has. I have a CCW in Alabama. One page online form for bc. Lasts for 5 years.


No training, no talking to my neighbors

That's great but the entire country is not made up of States like Alabama Georgia or Arizona there are more blue States that frown upon CCW's. I would like people in those States to be able to have CCW's as long as they can pass a background check. don't you feel for law abiding people in States like New York and New Jersey who even though they are law abiding I cannot get a CCW because they don't have a connections or are not ex law officers? those are the people I am advocating for, and if the only way for them to have a CCW is to pass background checks like I had to in California then so be it. at least they can maybe get one right?

 

[Maidenrules29]

Then you want much much.much stricter CCW laws than most of America currently has. I have a CCW in Alabama. One page online form for bc. Lasts for 5 years.


No training, no talking to my neighbors

I would love for that to be the case nationwide I would love for the entire nation to be constitutional carry with no background checks but that is not the reality the best we could hope for is a policy that nationwide you can get a CCW but pass a background check

 

[Rich2018]

And then we have all of the anti gun people trying to turn gun owners into social pariahs...

Like cigarette smokers and ladies who wear genuine fur coats.

 

[vegas giants]

I would love for that to be the case nationwide I would love for the entire nation to be constitutional carry with no background checks but that is not the reality the best we could hope for is a policy that nationwide you can get a CCW but pass a background check

You would love people to carry with no background checks??


You are all over the map

 

[Rich2018]

You would love people to carry with no background checks??


You are all over the map

He would love people to be nice and harbor no criminal intent.


But I think he's lying, because if that were the case, there'd be no need for his precious guns.

 

[vegas giants]

He would love people to be nice and harbor no criminal intent.


But I think he's lying, because if that were the case, there'd be no need for his precious guns.

No I dont think that is what he is saying

 

[vegas giants]

He would love people to be nice and harbor no criminal intent.


But I think he's lying, because if that were the case, there'd be no need for his precious guns.

No I dont think that is what he is saying

 

[Rich2018]

No I dont think that is what he is saying

You think he overly romantices Western shootouts like "Dodge City" and "High Noon" ?

 

[Waddy]

I remember the bloodbath that was predicted when CCW was first gaining traction in Florida and a few other states. It never happened. Violent crime actually went down. But burglaries and car thefts and other were unaffected. Criminals decided not to confront people because they didn't know who was armed and who wasn't. Several surveys have shown that criminals fear an armed citizen more than they fear the police, because a citizen will shoot.

“In 1982, the Atlanta suburb Kennesaw required all households to have a gun. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole,” according to U.S. News & World Report. “Ten years later the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than when the ordinance was passed” (emphasis added).

57% of criminals fear armed citizens more than cops | Jews Can Shoot

 

[Rich2018]

I remember the bloodbath that was predicted when CCW was first gaining traction in Florida and a few other states. It never happened. Violent crime actually went down. But burglaries and car thefts and other were unaffected. Criminals decided not to confront people because they didn't know who was armed and who wasn't. Several surveys have shown that criminals fear an armed citizen more than they fear the police, because a citizen will shoot.



57% of criminals fear armed citizens more than cops | Jews Can Shoot

Dude, we already have an annual "bloodbath"

And millions of people carry a useless lump of steel to the supermarket and back. Good exercise I guess.

And that Kennesaw law was purely political, from a RW, gun loving, local government


It's one of those crazy laws that is never enforced


"..."It was meant to be kind of a crime deterrent," said Lt. Craig Graydon, who's been with the Kennesaw Police Department for over 30 years. "It was also more or less a political statement because the city of Morton Grove, Illinois, passed a city ordinance banning handguns from their city limits."
Back then, the town had a population of just a few thousand. Over three decades later, the law is still on the books.
Today, Kennesaw, a town of about 33,000 people, has had one murder in the last six years and a violent crime rate of below 2%.
But it's unclear whether that has anything to do with the gun law.
..."


In this American town, guns are required by law - CNN


Kennesaw is a reasonably prosperous town with a low crime rate in 1982 as it has today.

You've bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker:



"A mandatory gun ownership law in Kennesaw, Georgia, caused the town's crime rate to plummet.

Mostly False

Sec. 34-21. – Heads of households to maintain firearms.

(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.

(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.


In other words, residents were required to own guns … save for those who couldn’t afford guns, couldn’t use guns, couldn’t legally own guns, or simply didn’t want to have guns. Essentially, Kennesaw residents were never actually required to own guns...

...a drop in homicides owing to a mandatory gun ownership law would be difficult to measure, as the number of murders that took place in Kennesaw the year prior to the law’s implementation was zero and therefore could drop no lower. And the increased number of armed robberies from 1980 (one) to 1981 (four) represented a sample so low that a subsequent reduction in such crime didn’t provide any meaningful data...


... in the decade bracketing the law’s passage (1976 through 1986) there was a significant drop in murders, burglaries, property crimes, the property crime rate, and the burglary rate in Georgia as whole (despite Kennesaw’s outlier status with the gun law in question). Statewide, the murder rate similarly dropped in a fairly dramatic fashion after 1982 without a statewide law requiring gun ownership."


Mandatory Gun Ownership in Kennesaw, Georgia



Seems you're prone to sucking up urban myths.
I live in Georgia Btw, not a million miles away from Kennesaw.

 

[Waddy]

Dude, we already have an annual "bloodbath"

And millions of people carry a useless lump of steel to the supermarket and back. Good exercise I guess.

And that Kennesaw law was purely political, from a RW, gun loving, local government


It's one of those crazy laws that is never enforced


"..."It was meant to be kind of a crime deterrent," said Lt. Craig Graydon, who's been with the Kennesaw Police Department for over 30 years. "It was also more or less a political statement because the city of Morton Grove, Illinois, passed a city ordinance banning handguns from their city limits."
Back then, the town had a population of just a few thousand. Over three decades later, the law is still on the books.
Today, Kennesaw, a town of about 33,000 people, has had one murder in the last six years and a violent crime rate of below 2%.
But it's unclear whether that has anything to do with the gun law.
..."


In this American town, guns are required by law - CNN


Kennesaw is a reasonably prosperous town with a low crime rate in 1982 as it has today.

You've bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker:



"A mandatory gun ownership law in Kennesaw, Georgia, caused the town's crime rate to plummet.

Mostly False

Sec. 34-21. – Heads of households to maintain firearms.

(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.

(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.


In other words, residents were required to own guns … save for those who couldn’t afford guns, couldn’t use guns, couldn’t legally own guns, or simply didn’t want to have guns. Essentially, Kennesaw residents were never actually required to own guns...

...a drop in homicides owing to a mandatory gun ownership law would be difficult to measure, as the number of murders that took place in Kennesaw the year prior to the law’s implementation was zero and therefore could drop no lower. And the increased number of armed robberies from 1980 (one) to 1981 (four) represented a sample so low that a subsequent reduction in such crime didn’t provide any meaningful data...


... in the decade bracketing the law’s passage (1976 through 1986) there was a significant drop in murders, burglaries, property crimes, the property crime rate, and the burglary rate in Georgia as whole (despite Kennesaw’s outlier status with the gun law in question). Statewide, the murder rate similarly dropped in a fairly dramatic fashion after 1982 without a statewide law requiring gun ownership."


Mandatory Gun Ownership in Kennesaw, Georgia



Seems you're prone to sucking up urban myths.
I live in Georgia Btw, not a million miles away from Kennesaw.

Bottom line. Crime dropped.

 

[Maidenrules29]

Dude, we already have an annual "bloodbath"

And millions of people carry a useless lump of steel to the supermarket and back. Good exercise I guess.

And that Kennesaw law was purely political, from a RW, gun loving, local government


It's one of those crazy laws that is never enforced


"..."It was meant to be kind of a crime deterrent," said Lt. Craig Graydon, who's been with the Kennesaw Police Department for over 30 years. "It was also more or less a political statement because the city of Morton Grove, Illinois, passed a city ordinance banning handguns from their city limits."
Back then, the town had a population of just a few thousand. Over three decades later, the law is still on the books.
Today, Kennesaw, a town of about 33,000 people, has had one murder in the last six years and a violent crime rate of below 2%.
But it's unclear whether that has anything to do with the gun law.
..."


In this American town, guns are required by law - CNN


Kennesaw is a reasonably prosperous town with a low crime rate in 1982 as it has today.

You've bought into the propaganda hook, line and sinker:



"A mandatory gun ownership law in Kennesaw, Georgia, caused the town's crime rate to plummet.

Mostly False

Sec. 34-21. – Heads of households to maintain firearms.

(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.

(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.


In other words, residents were required to own guns … save for those who couldn’t afford guns, couldn’t use guns, couldn’t legally own guns, or simply didn’t want to have guns. Essentially, Kennesaw residents were never actually required to own guns...

...a drop in homicides owing to a mandatory gun ownership law would be difficult to measure, as the number of murders that took place in Kennesaw the year prior to the law’s implementation was zero and therefore could drop no lower. And the increased number of armed robberies from 1980 (one) to 1981 (four) represented a sample so low that a subsequent reduction in such crime didn’t provide any meaningful data...


... in the decade bracketing the law’s passage (1976 through 1986) there was a significant drop in murders, burglaries, property crimes, the property crime rate, and the burglary rate in Georgia as whole (despite Kennesaw’s outlier status with the gun law in question). Statewide, the murder rate similarly dropped in a fairly dramatic fashion after 1982 without a statewide law requiring gun ownership."


Mandatory Gun Ownership in Kennesaw, Georgia



Seems you're prone to sucking up urban myths.
I live in Georgia Btw, not a million miles away from Kennesaw.

Its only a "useless lump of steel" until someone who wants to murder a bunch of people in that supermarket walks in. At least then I have a better chance to defend myself if I cant run or hide from the threat and a cop isnt already there, which is hardly ever the case.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

 

[Rich2018]

Bottom line. Crime dropped.

What part of the quote: "so low that a subsequent reduction in such crime didn’t provide any meaningful data..."


Were you not able to understand ?

 

[Rich2018]

Its only a "useless lump of steel" until someone who wants to murder a bunch of people in that supermarket walks in. At least then I have a better chance to defend myself ...

How ?

Have you taught you gun the basics of first aid ?


Wait a minute, you're assuming the mass shooter has the courtesy to shoot other people while you turn the supermarket into the OK Coral


Supermarkets should have gun free for all and gun free days. I don't want to be shopping at the same time you and people like you are.

 

[Waddy]

What part of the quote: "so low that a subsequent reduction in such crime didn’t provide any meaningful data..."


Were you not able to understand ?

Crime went down. What don't you understand about that?

 

[Rich2018]

Crime went down. What don't you understand about that?

What do you not understand by you can't prove that there was and correlation because the sample size was so pitifully small

And crime went down in general across the whole state during the same period.

 

[Maidenrules29]

How ?

Have you taught you gun the basics of first aid ?


Wait a minute, you're assuming the mass shooter has the courtesy to shoot other people while you turn the supermarket into the OK Coral


Supermarkets should have gun free for all and gun free days. I don't want to be shopping at the same time you and people like you are.

Again you are being disingenuous. The O.K. corrall? Really? O.K. Rich, you tell me, if YOU are in a supermarket in the checkout lane and some psychopath who wants to kill his ex girlfriend, who just so happens to be YOUR checkout girl starts yelling and screaming and waving his gun around and saying hes gonna kill her and everyone else, and then he starts firing, what are YOU going to do Rich? What if you are directly in his line of fire and cant duck down or hide behind something? He will shoot you and you might die right? OR, If you have a CCW weapon and can pull it out while he is distracted while ranting and raving to his ex and waving his gun around threatening people you can get the jump on him and take him out, what about that? THAT is the scenario I'm laying out. You can call it macho or vigilante fantasy or whatever all you want but that's the kind of situation that happens when it comes to this kind of violence. At the elementary school in San Bernardino where my kids went one of the teacher's estranged husband came in and shot her dead in the classroom right in front of her students. What if that teacher would have been able to conceal carry and defend herself or her students? That's not the OK Corrall, that's taking out a piece of ****.

 

[Rich2018]

...if YOU are in a supermarket in the checkout lane and some psychopath who wants to kill his ex girlfriend, who just so happens to be YOUR checkout girl starts yelling and screaming and waving his gun around and saying hes gonna kill her and everyone else, and then he starts firing, what are YOU going to do...

Drop to the ground and take cover

If I can, run for cover further away and again get on my belly

Curse the 2nd amendment that allowed that psychopath to buy a gun

...what if you are directly in his line of fire and cant duck down or hide behind something?

You can always "hit the deck"

...he will shoot you and you might die right? OR, If you have a CCW weapon and can pull it out while he is distracted while ranting and raving to his ex and waving his gun around threatening people you can get the jump on him and take him out....

Well if the shooter is ranting and waving his gun about, I hope I have the presence of mind to use the opportunity to run like hell
While the guy behind me, with the CCW, spends the time pulling out his Colt 45 and doing his John McLane act, turning the supermarket into the OK Coral and getting himself killed.


Give up your Rambo fantasy and if you are unfortunate to find yourself in such an incident do the following and in this order:

1. Run
2. Hide
3. Fight


Remember the active shooter is always going to shoot first.

 

[Chillfolks]

Drop to the ground and take cover

If I can, run for cover further away and again get on my belly

Great first steps and something everyone should do.

Curse the 2nd amendment that allowed that psychopath to buy a gun

I would be thankful we have a 2nd Amendment as a slide my gun from its holster hoping I don't nees to use it to protect myself or some defenseless citizen whose only protection is cursing the Constitution

You can always "hit the deck"

Always a good 1st choice.

Well if the shooter is ranting and waving his gun about, I hope I have the presence of mind to use the opportunity to run like hell

I hope everyone has this presence of mind.

While the guy behind me, with the CCW, spends the time pulling out his Colt 45 and doing his John McLane act, turning the supermarket into the OK Coral and getting himself killed.

Nice little piece of fantasy by as likely as the person with CCW uses it to stop the shooter story line.

Give up your Rambo fantasy and if you are unfortunate to find yourself in such an incident do the following and in this order:

1. Run
2. Hide
3. Fight


Remember the active shooter is always going to shoot first.

Again good advice everyone should follow. Too bad you also want to limit the ability of people to fight back if they must.

 

[Rich2018]

I would be thankful we have a 2nd Amendment...

Not a common expression of the victims who survive a mass shooting or the relatives that don't

I understand President Reagan changed his views on gun ownership following the attempt on his life in 1981

Nice little piece of fantasy by as likely as the person with CCW uses it to stop the shooter story line.

The John McLane option, with a dead bad guy and no dead hero, is the least likely outcome

...too bad you also want to limit the ability of people to fight back if they must.

Removing that limit, arms the mass shooter at the same time


When you can figure out the first without the second, come back and let us know.

 

[RF667799]

Not a common expression of the victims who survive a mass shooting or the relatives that don't

I understand President Reagan changed his views on gun ownership following the attempt on his life in 1981




The John McLane option, with a dead bad guy and no dead hero, is the least likely outcome





Removing that limit, arms the mass shooter at the same time


When you can figure out the first without the second, come back and let us know.

It isn't likely that I'll ever use any of the several fire extinguishers I have. Neither is it likely that I will need the spare tires that each of my vehicles and trailers are equipped with. Likewise, it probably isn't very likely where I will find myself in a dead bad guy/ live hero situation.

But those situations do happen. See Bum's numerous posts for reference.

Your oft proposed gun ban would just have the convenience store robbers armed shotguns. After perhaps decades of those types being armed just as they are now, by your own words. This is an improvement?

 

[Rich2018]

...would you want just any schmo who knows nothing about handling a firearm or who may be a hot head ready to pull the trigger on anyone who crosses him to have a CCW to walk around with it all day?

On the understanding that CCWs exist ?

What is the point of a training course if passing is guaranteed.

Probably one reason why US auto accident deaths exceed that of the UK is the the US driving test is a walk in the park compared to a British test.

(or perhaps I should say a drive round a parking lot)