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If abortion were classed as murder

I like Zombies, myself...low maintenance.

I hope the population continues to decline. I think it's projected that by like 2050, China will have 400 million fewer people. There's other decreasing numbers. Great, maybe the gas prices will finally drop

By 2050, Stephen Hawkings predicting will come true

Aliens from outspace will use us as slaves and food

Humans will understand true slavery like we're doing now to non human animals

Hey maybe they will think female skin from our race is valuable and sell it on the universal black market. Since we do the same to Tigers, it could one day happen to us to; you never know
 
The scenario in the "Pro-life has won!" thread is unrealistic, but it brings up some interesting questions, so let's go for a more realistic scenario here.

Assume that the pro-life movement is successful in getting laws passed that grant full legal personhood to a ZEF from implantation on. Based on those laws, getting an abortion is now legally equivalent to homicide, and only ruled legally acceptable in cases where the mother's life or health are seriously threatened by continuing the pregnancy. Some women still risk prison time to get illegal abortions, but for the most part, women are carrying their babies to term now. A lot of them still don't want to raise these children though, and are putting them up for adoption when they're born. And that's the main thrust of my question here.

For those of you who advocate for something similar to the hypothetical situation I've outlined, how would you plan on handling the greater numbers of children entering the US foster care system? How would you pay for caring for them? How would you try to find them homes?

If you're advocating that hundreds of thousands of additional unwanted children should be born every year, you should have at least some idea of what to do with them after they are born.

To give some rough numbers to the discussion:

There were 1.2 million abortions performed in the US in 2008 (last year I can find statistics for)
Let's say 10% of the women go ahead and get abortions anyway, risking a prison sentence (120,000).
And let's also say that another 10% of women decide to keep the baby (120,000).
And finally, not all of those pregnancies will go to term, let's say another 20% end in miscarriage or a stillbirth (240,000).

So just for a rough number, we're dealing with something around 720,000 additional children being put up for adoption each year in the US.

For comparison, there are around 130,000 adoptions each year in the US currently.

So how do you close that gap?

Abortion hasn't always been legal you know. This really needn't be all that earth shattering of a change. Things would simply go back to being how they were before Roe v Wade.

There would be a few more orphans, yes. However, by and large, I think your average mother is a lot less likely to give a child up after it has been born anyway (instinct has a certain tendency to take over, afterall). The overall increase probably wouldn't be quite so large as you might think.

The biggest problem would probably be an increase in welfare spending on single mothers. However, given the ever increasing rates at which certain minority groups already seem to embrace the practice, I don't even think that the net change in that area would be quite so massive as you might think.

It really simply isn't all that big a deal.
 
By 2050, Stephen Hawkings predicting will come true

Aliens from outspace will use us as slaves and food

Humans will understand true slavery like we're doing now to non human animals

Hey maybe they will think female skin from our race is valuable and sell it on the universal black market. Since we do the same to Tigers, it could one day happen to us to; you never know

Maybe the aliens will teach us how to create a fuel out of salt water? I'm tired of gas prices.
 
I like Zombies, myself...low maintenance.

LOL. I'm a huge fan of The Walking Dead.


I hope the population continues to decline. I think it's projected that by like 2050, China will have 400 million fewer people. There's other decreasing numbers. Great, maybe the gas prices will finally drop

I don't understand people who think we should have so many people on the planet. Look at the damage we are doing to it. The population could use a cull a la The Stand or some sort of apocalypse.
 
LOL. I'm a huge fan of The Walking Dead.

I don't understand people who think we should have so many people on the planet. Look at the damage we are doing to it. The population could use a cull a la The Stand or some sort of apocalypse.

Yeah, I hear ya. I liked Zombieland, too. Funny flick.

In college, I learned that when thinking about economics it really is about scarcity of resources. Also, economics is really a future tense kind of way of looking at things. If we spend something, its like sunk cost...so that's really past tense.

Anyway..

The formal definition of scarcity of resources is:

"Scarcity of resources is a condition that exists because human wants exceed the capacity of available resources to satisfy those wants; also a situation in which a resource has more than one valuable use. People often get confused with the term resources. The basic kinds of resources used to produce goods and services: land or national resources, human resources (including labor and entrepreneurship), and capital."

Well, if you think about it. We know that if there is anything to the "scarcity of resource" condition, if you will. Then it stands to reason that if the earths population doesn't begin to cut back on its growth...knowing that our tendency as humans want to exceed the capacity of available resources...then DUH?

And we also see fewer and fewer people controlling all the common types of resources, which means we will all owe our souls to the company store before it's over.

In fact, being a zombie might not be too bad...except if you eat all of your neighbors up too soon. And that's kind of what I see happening now. Everybody's eating too many neighbors too soon. No, wait...they aren't eating them fast enough. We do want lower gas prices, I assume?
 
Okay, assume half. Still a big problem.

The OP is flawed, however. Evidence suggests that criminalizing abortion will not drastically reduce the number of abortions. Women will seek them out illegally. Only if it cannot be done cleanly and legally, more women will die from botched abortions.
It would drastically reduce the number of abortions... but you are right that many women will seek them illegally.
But your logic fails afters this because in this legal system the unborn human is of the same value as a person... In this legal system, women who die from botched abortions would be equivalent to someone attempting murder and die in the process. You are not allowed to murder anyone, so you attempting to murder something and hurting yourself in the process gives you no excuse. It is their choice to harm themselves in such a way, but they have to deal with the consequences... just like any crime. They had the choice to have sex or not have sex. EVERYONE who has sex must accept the responsibility that there is a chance that there could be a baby.

You act like this is such a foreign proposition, abortions were illegal for a very long time before Rode vrs. Wade and couldn't be performed safely for the tens of thousands of years humans have been in existence... it is in fact something really new to be able to have an abortion.

Regardless of the convenience of abortions, it doesn't really matter. Killing "worthless"/inferior people in our society would be convenient, but we don't do it because they are human.
 
It would drastically reduce the number of abortions...

You can assert that all you like, but you'll need evidence. Please provide some.

But your logic fails afters this because in this legal system the unborn human is of the same value as a person... In this legal system, women who die from botched abortions would be equivalent to someone attempting murder and die in the process.

No, it would be someone succeeding at murder and dying in the process. The fetus wouldn't be saved either way. The only change is a dead woman. The only result from your way of doing things is dead women.

You are not allowed to murder anyone, so you attempting to murder something and hurting yourself in the process gives you no excuse.

A rather easy argument can be made for self defense against a fetus by a woman obtaining an abortion. The fetus (a whole separate human being by your standards) is forcibly inside her body, siphoning her blood and other fluids, physically draining energy and nutrition out of her body, and making her sick, all without her consent. The counter argument is that she gives consent by having sex. Oh look, you did!

They had the choice to have sex or not have sex.

But this is nonsense, both because it doesn't account for women who get pregnant while using birth control, manifesting a clear intent NOT to be pregnant, thus negating any consent, and the fact that consent can always be revoked. That's why someone can trespass on your property if they stay after you ask them to leave, and why continuing to have sex with someone after they tell you to stop is rape.

It is their choice to harm themselves in such a way, but they have to deal with the consequences... just like any crime. EVERYONE who has sex must accept the responsibility that there is a chance that there could be a baby.

And then it comes to this notion of consequences and responsibility. Why should sex come with consequences? Why should anyone ever become a parent without wanting to? Why should the mere fact that sex has historically been the means of procreation (due to biology) mean that it must continue to be so? You conflate "is" and "should". Just because something is (sex leading to parenthood when a person doesn't want to) doesn't mean it should be. It's a strange mentality that really sounds like a desire to punish people (almost exclusively punish women) for having sex.

You act like this is such a foreign proposition, abortions were illegal for a very long time before Rode vrs. Wade

No, I act like it is a WRONG proposition. Because it is. And grossly unconstitutional. And I wish we had a Supreme Court with the courage to actually enforce that and strike down several state's onerous laws to inhibit personal liberty.

and couldn't be performed safely for the tens of thousands of years humans have been in existence... it is in fact something really new to be able to have an abortion.

That's a limitation in technology, not in morality or law. Abortions have been a part of every human culture for as long as there have been humans and culture. Forcing a woman to breed against her will is wrong. That's really all there is to it.

Regardless of the convenience of abortions, it doesn't really matter. Killing "worthless"/inferior people in our society would be convenient, but we don't do it because they are human.

Actually, we do kill people. We do it all the time. Often by letting them starve or die of preventable medical conditions. A lot of the anti-abortion crowd likes to wail that the right to life trumps all other rights, but this seldom applies outside of the argument about abortion. Demand a program from the government to feed every single child in the country, without exception, so that literally not a single one starves or suffers from malnutrition, and then FUND that program, and then you can trumpet life being a more fundamental right than others (specifically property, in this case). No? You won't pay for it? Congratulations. You value the right to property more than the right to life.

The reality, in cold hard numbers, is that a woman who is forced to have a child before she is ready is vastly more likely to slip into poverty, and that child plus any subsequent children she has will also be trapped there. Meanwhile, allowing her time to build a stable economic base before children will keep her and her later children out of poverty. The difference between two children living a good life with stability and promising futures, both for themselves and their eventual families, and three children living in poverty, and their children most likely living in poverty as well, is vast. The former is many many times greater than the latter. Especially in terms of the right to property, since her right to economic stability and mobility is compromised by the fetus' right to life, which we established above is inferior to her right to property.

The arguments against abortion are inconsistent and without legal merit. They only ever amount to placing a discriminatory and onerous burden on women, and only women, for how they conduct their personal lives. And that is something that neither you, nor I, nor the government, have a right to do.
 
You can assert that all you like, but you'll need evidence. Please provide some.
You claimed otherwise first. I think my assertion is the most logical and any evidence otherwise would be the more surprising result. But I will be polite...

Just looking on google and I find this FactCheck.org: Abortion Distortions

It shows that the number of deaths of women receiving illegal abortions was very minimal, with a high estimate of 5000 a year to a low esimate of 500. And after the invention of Penicillin, it drastically reduced the number of deaths.

Sources show that it was near impossible to know the number of illegal abortions during that time but they estimated in about 80,000 before Rode vrs. Wade

after Rhode vrs. wade

http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS03_AbortionInTheUS.pdf
significant increase in abortion.

I will address the other point eventually...
 
No, I act like it is a WRONG proposition. Because it is. And grossly unconstitutional. And I wish we had a Supreme Court with the courage to actually enforce that and strike down several state's onerous laws to inhibit personal liberty.
And i want quickly add... Regardless of your personal opinions... we are discussing the facts of the OP.

You slip here, you show how your personal judgments are affecting your ability to reason, in this case... it would NOT be unconstitutional because they are both considered a human being and you are not allowed to kill another human being under the constitution.
 
And i want quickly add... Regardless of your personal opinions... we are discussing the facts of the OP.

You slip here, you show how your personal judgments are affecting your ability to reason, in this case... it would NOT be unconstitutional because they are both considered a human being and you are not allowed to kill another human being under the constitution.

No, you just don't understand constitutional law as completely as I do. If your theory that a fetus is a person is true, then it is not just a part of the mother, and she can attempt to divest herself of it, same as she could any other person doing all those things to her without her consent. And the return to consent. We went through all of this, but unless the courts are willing to extend this "consent can be rescinded except by pregnant women with regard to their pregnancies" theory... Well, then they have to deal with the equal protection clause. This would clearly be a gender based discrimination. Which is unconstitutional.

My "personal opinions" as you put them, actually my profession (law) and my specialty (constitutional rights) manifesting in what I know.
 
No, you just don't understand constitutional law as completely as I do. If your theory that a fetus is a person is true, then it is not just a part of the mother, and she can attempt to divest herself of it, same as she could any other person doing all those things to her without her consent. And the return to consent. We went through all of this, but unless the courts are willing to extend this "consent can be rescinded except by pregnant women with regard to their pregnancies" theory... Well, then they have to deal with the equal protection clause. This would clearly be a gender based discrimination. Which is unconstitutional.

My "personal opinions" as you put them, actually my profession (law) and my specialty (constitutional rights) manifesting in what I know.
You could address my other post too...
The fetus is simply following it's natural processes. You can't argue the fetus is to a women as a tape-worm is to a bull... that's simply not true.

And to go to the consent of having sex... I really don't understand your argument, it seems very bloated... like your trying to hard. Are you saying that consent to one thing is not also consenting to it's results? Like if I have a button and when I push it I get a million dollars, but every time I push there is a 50% chance that someone will die...I can take a medicine that reduces this chance to 1%. So I am consenting to receiving this million dollars, but I am not responsible if the off chance someone will die because I didn't consent to that.
 
You could address my other post too...
The fetus is simply following it's natural processes. You can't argue the fetus is to a women as a tape-worm is to a bull... that's simply not true.

The tapeworm is following its natural processes, is it not?

And to go to the consent of having sex... I really don't understand your argument, it seems very bloated... like your trying to hard. Are you saying that consent to one thing is not also consenting to it's results? Like if I have a button and when I push it I get a million dollars, but every time I push there is a 50% chance that someone will die...I can take a medicine that reduces this chance to 1%. So I am consenting to receiving this million dollars, but I am not responsible if the off chance someone will die because I didn't consent to that.

When you get in a car, do you consent to being hit by a drunk driver? When you go for a walk, do you consent to being assaulted?

You know these things are possibilities. Small, but ever-present. You can take measures to help lessen the likelihood of their occurrence, but you will never be completely free of that risk.

Then what the hell makes you think a woman having sex consents to an unwanted pregnancy?
 
When you get in a car, do you consent to being hit by a drunk driver? When you go for a walk, do you consent to being assaulted?

You know these things are possibilities. Small, but ever-present. You can take measures to help lessen the likelihood of their occurrence, but you will never be completely free of that risk.

Then what the hell makes you think a woman having sex consents to an unwanted pregnancy?

Now honestly, really, I can easily point out the difference in these analogies.

Does the act of going in a car CAUSE the drunk driver to hit you? No, this decision does not CAUSE it, the drunk driver CAUSES for you to be hit. YOU cause the fetus to be born. YOU cause the death by the button.

But it's funny... your example backfires on yourself.
The drunk driver had a choice. He was impaired, he wanted to go home and consented to drive is car in order to go home, there was a chance he would loose control of his vehicle and kill someone. But he took that chance, HE is responsible for the killing even though all he did was consent to driving in his car home.

Your fighting a losing battle with this one, other abortion points have a much stronger angle, but trying to deny that there is a certain personal responsibility for your actions? that's just turning partisan...
 
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In the same way?

What does it really matter?

You argument was naturalism.

Now honestly, really, I can easily point out the difference in these analogies.

Does the act of going in a car CAUSE the drunk driver to hit you? No, this decision does not CAUSE it, the drunk driver CAUSES for you to be hit. YOU cause the fetus to be born. YOU cause the death by the button.

But it's funny... your example backfires on yourself.
The drunk driver had a choice. He was impaired, he wanted to go home and consented to drive is car in order to go home, there was a chance he would loose control of his vehicle and kill someone. But he took that chance, HE is responsible for the killing even though all he did was consent to driving in his car home.

Your fighting a losing battle with this one, other abortion points have a much stronger angle, but trying to deny that there is a certain personal responsibility for your actions? that's just turning partisan...

I agree, you are.

You have a choice about what risks you take. You getting on the road causes risks. You going outside causes risks.

Sex has many risks, like those above -- unwanted pregnancy is but one of many.

But what on earth is birth control or abortion if not a very explicit expression of non-consent?

An expression of non-consent is all that is required, legally.
 
What does it really matter?

You argument was naturalism.



I agree, you are.

You have a choice about what risks you take. You getting on the road causes risks. You going outside causes risks.

Sex has many risks, like those above -- unwanted pregnancy is but one of many.

But what on earth is birth control or abortion if not a very explicit expression of non-consent?

An expression of non-consent is all that is required, legally.
way to completely avoid what I said in my post.

Your last line, "An expression of non-consent is all that is required, legally.", This is simply not true in all three of the situations I described.
Are you going to address them or not?
Do you not understand the difference of your example and mine? Or are you choosing not to?
 
What does it really matter?

You argument was naturalism.
FALSE...

My argument was that... Mother as to fetus is NOT as Bull is to tapeworm.

The natural process of the fetus was addressing a different point in response to the person I was posting to.
 
way to completely avoid what I said in my post.

Your last line, "An expression of non-consent is all that is required, legally.", This is simply not true in all three of the situations I described.
Are you going to address them or not?
Do you not understand the difference of your example and mine? Or are you choosing not to?

I don't see anything worthy of any further attention, honestly. Even after a second and closer examination. You're mostly just bloviating.

FALSE...

My argument was that... Mother as to fetus is NOT as Bull is to tapeworm.

The natural process of the fetus was addressing a different point in response to the person I was posting to.

Yes, but you haven't explained why. So why on earth should I care?
 
I don't see anything worthy of any further attention, honestly. Even after a second and closer examination. You're mostly just bloviating.
Oh come on... I have clearly made an argument against what you said...at the very least you can show why it's wrong. This statement above is a simple cop-out.

If you need me to reiterate something I will be glad to, but your responses show a complete avoidance of what I am saying.
 
Yes, but you haven't explained why. So why on earth should I care?
Why should you care... well it's difficult to explain this one statement because it was used in context of the larger point. You obviously wouldn't care much about Shakespeare if I just had you read one line in the middle of the work.

It is meant to put things in their proper context. You guys love to distract the discussion away with sentences on how insignificant you think a baby fetus is. You can't blame the fetus for being there, it is simply there because of your own choices... it's not some random alien baby that just popped in there because the stars aligned... nor is there because God put it there... nor it is there because the stork thought it would be funny... It is there BECAUSE of YOU.

and please don't use this post as a means of avoiding our earlier discussion.
 
Why should you care... well it's difficult to explain this one statement because it was used in context of the larger point. You obviously wouldn't care much about Shakespeare if I just had you read one line in the middle of the work.

I'm sorry, I couldn't get past this sentence.

Did you just compare this nonsense to Shakespeare? :lol:
 
I'm sorry, I couldn't get past this sentence.

Did you just compare this nonsense to Shakespeare? :lol:
Nonsense? you really are grasping at straws now.

I was injecting some harmless humor into this conversation... in a non-mocking way. :)
 
Okay, Jay, if we must dance...

We have homicide laws for a very good reason. First of all, they are created to protect born persons. People who exist who have developed a social relationship in one fashion or another with other people. They participate in sharing labor, they become a part of an interactive family, community, state and so on. We born actually need each other in so many ways. One person usually depends on other persons for cars, food, housing, clothing, etc. Consequently, their presence and their contributions to humanity effects and affects other born people. Given your theory about homicide laws...based on your comments...I'd say why have any laws at all?

Based on MY comments? I think you're confused.

I want our laws to protect human rights. I want laws against the aggressive killing of human beings no matter what the age of the victim.

YOU, on the other hand, have stated you do not want laws to protect against homicide for some victims because their deaths, over a million in the US, millions upon millions worldwide every year, have no negative effect on the population level. You stated it again in this post I am quoting.

Well, current criminal homicides are much lower in frequency than abortion... so if the primary consideration of yours is the net population... then you have no reason to fuss about ~15000 homicides that are currently criminal... in fact, your argument is an argument for precisely that: legalizing all homicides. If you were to be shot right now, your replacement would be born in a matter of seconds.

Again, the only folks who can actually reduce the population on that magnitude can't be managed by mere criminal law, only war or the the threat of war.

SO, either you don't really care about the population, and your use of it is a red herring, a false argument, or you ought to want all statutes against killing anyone to be off the books.


But that ISN'T your argument, as we already know. You give it away in the next paragraph, your direct assertion of bigotry and rejection of equality.


Your homicide "metaphor" isn't really germane to the central argument.

What metaphor?
 
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You could address my other post too...
The fetus is simply following it's natural processes. You can't argue the fetus is to a women as a tape-worm is to a bull... that's simply not true.

Sure I can. A rapist is merely following his natural processes when he rapes someone. But I can certainly condemn him, punish him, and empower his victim to kill in self-defense. "Natural process" is an empty argument. Especially without a working definition of "natural".

And to go to the consent of having sex... I really don't understand your argument, it seems very bloated... like your trying to hard. Are you saying that consent to one thing is not also consenting to it's results? Like if I have a button and when I push it I get a million dollars, but every time I push there is a 50% chance that someone will die...I can take a medicine that reduces this chance to 1%. So I am consenting to receiving this million dollars, but I am not responsible if the off chance someone will die because I didn't consent to that.

No, you misunderstand completely. Fortunately, I already addressed the issue of consent in more detail in an earlier post. I will highlight the most important aspect.

But this is nonsense, both because it doesn't account for women who get pregnant while using birth control, manifesting a clear intent NOT to be pregnant, thus negating any consent, and the fact that consent can always be revoked. That's why someone can trespass on your property if they stay after you ask them to leave, and why continuing to have sex with someone after they tell you to stop is rape.

The premise of the "you had sex so you're consenting to pregnancy" argument ignores this element completely. Not only would a woman need to consent to become pregnant, she would need to consent to stay pregnant. Just as she needs to consent to start having sex, and then to keep having sex. What can begin as a lawful encounter can become assault (actually battery) once consent is revoked.
 
Based on MY comments? I think you're confused.

I want our laws to protect human rights. I want laws against the aggressive killing of human beings no matter what the age of the victim.

YOU, on the other hand, have stated you do not want laws to protect against homicide for some victims because their deaths, over a million in the US, millions upon millions worldwide every year, have no negative effect on the population level. You stated it again in this post I am quoting.

Well, current criminal homicides are much lower in frequency than abortion... so if the primary consideration of yours is the net population... then you have no reason to fuss about ~15000 homicides that are currently criminal... in fact, your argument is an argument for precisely that: legalizing all homicides. If you were to be shot right now, your replacement would be born in a matter of seconds.

Again, the only folks who can actually reduce the population on that magnitude can't be managed by mere criminal law, only war or the the threat of war.

SO, either you don't really care about the population, and your use of it is a red herring, a false argument, or you ought to want all statutes against killing anyone to be off the books.


But that ISN'T your argument, as we already know. You give it away in the next paragraph, your direct assertion of bigotry and rejection of equality.




What metaphor?

This post fail as soon as we read the first two sentences. Neither are true unless you point out the fact that you want laws to protect human rights they way your OPINION views them and that human rights view thew woman as a lesser compared to the ZEF.

Those are the human rights your opinion supports and many disagree with them.
 
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