• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Ideology of Hope

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
During the flurry of news regarding the London bombings, I saw a clip of President Bush talking about battling the forces of terrorism with an "ideology of hope". Can anyone define exactly what that is...?
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Imudman said:
During the flurry of news regarding the London bombings, I saw a clip of President Bush talking about battling the forces of terrorism with an "ideology of hope". Can anyone define exactly what that is...?
Hope that he'll lose the next election?
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Naughty Nurse said:
Hope that he'll lose the next election?
Now you know he can't run for election again. Seriously, what do you think he meant by an "ideology of hope"?
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Imudman said:
Now you know he can't run for election again. Seriously, what do you think he meant by an "ideology of hope"?
I have no idea what he meant.

Didn't realise he couldn't run for election again (shame that our Phoney Blair was able to) but that does give me hope!
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Naughty Nurse said:
I have no idea what he meant.

Didn't realise he couldn't run for election again (shame that our Phoney Blair was able to) but that does give me hope!
I know it's a small thing, but my heart goes out to you and your countrymen today. And a prayer...
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Imudman said:
I know it's a small thing, but my heart goes out to you and your countrymen today. And a prayer...
Why thank you, kind sir. I little kindness goes a long way.
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Imudman said:
During the flurry of news regarding the London bombings, I saw a clip of President Bush talking about battling the forces of terrorism with an "ideology of hope". Can anyone define exactly what that is...?

First let me say.. swift recovery to you, fair England and your citizens. my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Secondly... the ideology of hope, and this is just my guess, is the hope that Iraq can be put back together better than it was when we got there. I'm sure the world doesn't want to hear Bush say, oh it'll never work (though sometimes I have said that) I may not like the man, but his optimism, though misguided at times, is steadfast. He truly believes it can work.
 

Stherngntlmn

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
236
Reaction score
0
Location
Richmond, Va
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
My interpretation of his ideology of hope is instilling in repressed people around the globe a sense that there's a good chance that their lives will change for the better in the future, that they may see freedom in their lifetimes.... and the possibility that the hope they begin to feel about their future encourages their bravery to standup to the terrorists in their local areas and say "No. I do not agree with your acts of violence. I want to see my country stabilized. I want to be represented in my government. I want my children to grow up in a free society without fear of carbombs and "martyrs". Once the common people in the repressed parts of the world unite in the hope for a free future, there's no telling what revolutions may happen, many terrorists may stop being harbored, oppressive governments may be couped and overthrown. Global reform may take place.

I can't say i really see any likelyhood of such major events happening in the near future, but that's my interpretation of Bush's "ideology of hope".
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
debate_junkie said:
First let me say.. swift recovery to you, fair England and your citizens. my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Secondly... the ideology of hope, and this is just my guess, is the hope that Iraq can be put back together better than it was when we got there. I'm sure the world doesn't want to hear Bush say, oh it'll never work (though sometimes I have said that) I may not like the man, but his optimism, though misguided at times, is steadfast. He truly believes it can work.
Forgive me, but I'm confused. I got the impression from Bush the "ideology of hope" (IOH) was actually a strategy being employed against terrorism. Are you saying the IOH is actually a plan to put Iraq back together, thus avoiding terrorist actions like those in London today..?
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Stherngntlmn said:
My interpretation of his ideology of hope is instilling in repressed people around the globe a sense that there's a good chance that their lives will change for the better in the future, that they may see freedom in their lifetimes.... and the possibility that the hope they begin to feel about their future encourages their bravery to standup to the terrorists in their local areas and say "No. I do not agree with your acts of violence. I want to see my country stabilized. I want to be represented in my government. I want my children to grow up in a free society without fear of carbombs and "martyrs". Once the common people in the repressed parts of the world unite in the hope for a free future, there's no telling what revolutions may happen, many terrorists may stop being harbored, oppressive governments may be couped and overthrown. Global reform may take place.

I can't say i really see any likelyhood of such major events happening in the near future, but that's my interpretation of Bush's "ideology of hope".
Okay, but on what philosophical foundation do you think this hope is based? I mean, what would make the moslem world think there's reason to hope for a better life? Why would terrorists suddenly quit committing terrorist acts? What exactly are we selling (for lack of a better word) them...?
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Imudman said:
Forgive me, but I'm confused. I got the impression from Bush the "ideology of hope" (IOH) was actually a strategy being employed against terrorism. Are you saying the IOH is actually a plan to put Iraq back together, thus avoiding terrorist actions like those in London today..?

not a strategy.. but his own personal belief. A belief he's constantly selling to the American public. His hope was that Sadaam will be captured. His hope is that Iraq will stand democratically under it's own government, without the insurgency currently seen there. His hope is then that other countries that are oppressed by their leaders will then see the good of a democratic Iraq, and begin to stand and call for their own governmental infrastructures to change. People will turn on terrorists, instead of harboring them out of fear. People will demand changes. The status quo will no longer be acceptable. Suicide bombers, he hopes, will become extinct once the peoples of the world start to rise against them. Heck, think about this.... a group of people have taken up arms, and stormed the hiding place of Osama bin Laden, and like that he's gone. The rippling effect that would come from that is chilling, but also a positive in the efforts against terror.

These are all things George Bush "hopes" will be started once Iraq is back on track, or even before then. He can't make them happen though... contrary to what some believe. He can't make people rise up against terror. That people have to do on their own.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
debate_junkie said:
...These are all things George Bush "hopes" will be started once Iraq is back on track, or even before then. He can't make them happen though... contrary to what some believe. He can't make people rise up against terror. That people have to do on their own.
See, that's what I think too, that people won't just rise up on their own, unless they're motivated by a greater ideology than the one they already have. That's why I got the impression there was actually a strategy being employed. But it raised the question in my mind, What is the greater ideaology?

America stands for freedom, but what does that mean to someone in the moslem world? I read somewhere one time that a man blind from birth can never miss having his sight. Same with freedom. Unless you can communicate effectively what freedom is, a person born into a system that spawns terrorism cannot even relate to freedom...
 

Naughty Nurse

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 5, 2005
Messages
1,972
Reaction score
12
Location
The UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Imudman said:
Unless you can communicate effectively what freedom is, a person born into a system that spawns terrorism cannot even relate to freedom...
Does the system spawn terrorism?
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Naughty Nurse said:
Does the system spawn terrorism?
Well, if not the system, then what? I mean, no one else is bombing London right now but islamo/fascist terrorists. Obviously they do it out of a sense of duty to their ideals. So, yes, I think it is the system...
 

Stherngntlmn

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
236
Reaction score
0
Location
Richmond, Va
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Imudman said:
Okay, but on what philosophical foundation do you think this hope is based? I mean, what would make the moslem world think there's reason to hope for a better life? Why would terrorists suddenly quit committing terrorist acts? What exactly are we selling (for lack of a better word) them...?
it's not my ideology, it's his. My hope is that we can find cheaper oil, quit *****footing on illegal immigration, figure out a way to get out from under china's thumb, and not get nuked... maybe promote freedom and capitalism in the process.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I think GWB was right when he talked about promoting the "ideology of hope" to the world. In order to stop terrorism, you have to convince would-be terrorists there's a reason to live that's greater than their reasons to die. Unfortunately, he's not able to articulate what the ideology of hope is.

LIke some of you said, he may have been talking about his own agenda. If he was, then he was missing the boat because promoting freedom is the key to winning the war on terror. Sadly, I don't think any American president from here on out will be able to articulate what freedom is, because we have strayed from our own ideals. To me, this means we may have already lost...
 

mikeangelo

New member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
the ideology of hope he talks of is the ideology of capitalism. This is a direct anti thesis to the ideology of Islam just as it was an antithesis to the ideology of communism. what Bush is referring to when he talks of Freedom and democracy are the principles that stem from Democracy. Bush is saying that Capitalism is superior to Islam. What i have said above is what Bush means to say. however he is *****footing round. He can't just say that. This is leading to the confusion that we see in western politics today.

So instead we see Bush turning round calling for freedom and democracy and human rights like a headless chicken. Muslims do not desire these 'higher' principles. This is a concept that the west cannot understand. Guys, what bush views as Freedom, muslims just view as unholy decadence. En masse we have no wish for that.

With regards to the terrorist threat. This is motivated by present occupation of muslim land and resources. End the occupation and then you will end the immediate threat. As an example we have Spain that pulled its forces out and now it enjoys peace from the Muslims at least.

Ask yourselves guys why Bin Laden desn't issue video messages threatening Iceland. What is it that is special about our nations in the west.
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
mikeangelo said:
the ideology of hope he talks of is the ideology of capitalism. This is a direct anti thesis to the ideology of Islam just as it was an antithesis to the ideology of communism. what Bush is referring to when he talks of Freedom and democracy are the principles that stem from Democracy. Bush is saying that Capitalism is superior to Islam. What i have said above is what Bush means to say. however he is *****footing round. He can't just say that. This is leading to the confusion that we see in western politics today.

So instead we see Bush turning round calling for freedom and democracy and human rights like a headless chicken. Muslims do not desire these 'higher' principles. This is a concept that the west cannot understand. Guys, what bush views as Freedom, muslims just view as unholy decadence. En masse we have no wish for that.

With regards to the terrorist threat. This is motivated by present occupation of muslim land and resources. End the occupation and then you will end the immediate threat. As an example we have Spain that pulled its forces out and now it enjoys peace from the Muslims at least.

Ask yourselves guys why Bin Laden desn't issue video messages threatening Iceland. What is it that is special about our nations in the west.

actually, try watching PBS sometime. An interesting profile was done on Osama. His hatred for America came when the Saudi government rejected Osama's plea to let him and his group of "freedom fighters" (forgive me, I forget the term that was used" to expel Iraq from Kuwait. Osama saw Saudi's rejection of him and favortism of America doing the job as a slap to the face.

It was only THEN that Osama began his campaign against America, as seen in the WTC bombing of 93, I believe. Occupation had NOTHING to do with Osama's hatred of America. He hates us because the Saudi's favored us, over him. And he couldn't handle that.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
So it's capitalism that's the culprit? That's the reason bin Laden and the rest of the terrorists hate us? I find that odd, since bin Laden is a capitalist of the first degree. I think you misunderstand what capitalism is.

You said freedom is decadance to the moslem. I think I understand what you mean. And I can see how the concept of freedom has been perverted to mean something other than what it is. This was my point when I said we have strayed from our own ideals.

Freedom isn't decadence if you remember that with freedom comes responsibility. Unrestrained freedom is decadence. Being free shouldn't give someone license to do anything.

Now, exactly what occupation are you talking about? Iraq? Afghanistan? And listen, friend, we didn't start this. But unlike Spain, we'll sure finish it...
 

Gandhi>Bush

Non-Passive Pascifist
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
2,742
Reaction score
0
Location
Mesquite, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Do you really believe it is possible for you to truly kill all of the terrorists?

Between the people we've made homeless and the people that have seen us kill, I believe that the terrorists have grown both in numbers and in resolve. They no longer have to find ways to apply their hatred and propaganda because it's now right out in the open just waiting to be twisted. This whole war is backwards. You will unmake hatred and anti-Americanism so strong that it can make men blow themselves up... by blowing them up?
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Gandhi>Bush said:
Do you really believe it is possible for you to truly kill all of the terrorists?

Between the people we've made homeless and the people that have seen us kill, I believe that the terrorists have grown both in numbers and in resolve. They no longer have to find ways to apply their hatred and propaganda because it's now right out in the open just waiting to be twisted. This whole war is backwards. You will unmake hatred and anti-Americanism so strong that it can make men blow themselves up... by blowing them up?
Who said anything about killing all the terrorists? I'm talking about communicating with them...
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Imudman said:
Who said anything about killing all the terrorists? I'm talking about communicating with them...

As we've seen between Pakistan and Israel, is it really possible to communicate with a man or woman who's willing to strap explosives to their body and die for "the cause"? I'm not saying it's NOT possible, but thus far it's been unlikely. Yes, things have been fairly quiet in that region, but I believe solely that is due to Sharon's continued evacuation of Israel from Gaza.

They die, because they have been raised to believe that is the only way to get results.

We, as a world, will NEVER be able to capture every single terrorist on the planet. Some of them will die. Does that make it right, no? BUT.. if a terrorist is killed by a coalition of forces seeking to erradicate this extremism, doesn't it mean that terrorist will not be able to set off a bomb tonight? Just some food for thought.
 

Imudman

Active member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
259
Reaction score
0
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
debate_junkie, of course you're right, some of them will die. It's really the next generation I'm talking about. What makes a person willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself and others up? The answer is he sees a greater benefit than in living. We need to give them a reason to live.

mikeangelo thinks it's capitalism that's the culprit. There's a lot of room to re-educate people if this is what they think. All kinds of misinformation have been allowed to spread. It's time to talk about what America stands for. Of course, we'll first have to start practicing what we preach...
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Imudman said:
debate_junkie, of course you're right, some of them will die. It's really the next generation I'm talking about. What makes a person willing to strap on a bomb and blow himself and others up? The answer is he sees a greater benefit than in living. We need to give them a reason to live.

mikeangelo thinks it's capitalism that's the culprit. There's a lot of room to re-educate people if this is what they think. All kinds of misinformation have been allowed to spread. It's time to talk about what America stands for. Of course, we'll first have to start practicing what we preach...

Just my guess, but they're trained from birth to believe that dying for their "cause" will bring them greater rewards in their afterlife? We're trying to psycho-analyze why a person is willing to die, when the real question is, if not us, then who? As we know with these militants, anyone who is not of their faith, is an "infidel" and infidel's deserve to die. How can you reason with that kind of upbringing? My guess is you can't.. unless we eliminate it at it's source. The adults have already conditioned the next generation.

But last time I checked, we have withstood 26 years of attacks from militants of ALL kinds who are threatened by America, some simply because we exist. After all, in 1979, the Ayatollah Khomeini took his power in Iran with a slogan of nothing more than "Death to America".
 

mikeangelo

New member
Joined
Jul 3, 2005
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Private
with freedom comes responsibility. The culture we are in does not emphasise responsibilty. It does not produce responsible individuals. It does not celebrate responsible individuals. Our celebraties are people who are total failures. They are alcoholics and junkies. Their marriages fail. Their children are often as messed up as the celebrity themselves. They need to be placed in rehab clinics. The same goes for the politicians. The concept of Freedom has destroyed western society.

This is what freedom has brought to this society. The muslims do not want this inferior thought. As muslims we judge actions by that which pleases the creator.

I need re-educating? Bush talks of spreading Democracy and Freedom throughout the world. These concepts require at their base the thought that Man has the sovereignity to rule as opposed to God.
 
Top Bottom