I would never serve in the Military of the USA (or any country for that matter)

[SovereignElecto]

You believe everything Kissinger said, without context?

If you noticed I even posted the context of the quote but even if I was able to bring Kissinger here to debate the quote you would sill dismiss it after all.

You asked me a question and I responded then you try to dismiss it by suggesting I am falling victim to believing everything others say. The reality is I simply think for myself and am able to see through the BS programing and can stand on my own regardless of how crazy some of you may think I am. I am not the one supporting the killings of hundreds of thousands of innocent men women and children and then brushing it off as collateral damage to a needed war for freedom

 

[a351]

wars are not the problem. spending $$$$$$ supporting welfare cases and ingrates, presumably like yourself, is the problem.

Dubious claim to say the least, given the fact that total welfare expenditures total around 2/3 of the annual defense budget, and are ridden with qualifiers that push those funds back into circulation at a rather rapid pace, which encourages growth at the local level and increased income mobility on a broad scale. Fruitless foreign treasure hunts like the ones we've been mired in for nearly a decade now provide expansionary opportunities for the military and secs of the manufacturing industry, but a sizable chunk of said funds will likely be tied up in overseas combat or in the profit columns of conglomerates and opportunistic defense contractors.

 

[SovereignElecto]

This is where I started laughing. :lamo

So, where, exactly, do you think this freedom came from?

Oh, forgive me. You did say "long before". Wow, you must be really old.

*gasp!* Are you...

Well since you are resorting to posting music lyrics as your argument I have to gather a debate with you won't go very far as I do not post rebuttal lyrics. I will respond to your question where I think my freedom came from, and that is my creator and from within. Like the other animals of the earth, most animals are often born free or were intended to be born free and in control of their own lives. While some are born into captivity such as zoos it wasn't the original design. Citizens are born into captivity by their master (The nation) and therefore are not really free now are they?

You know the old saying you can only be taken advantage of if you let others take advantage of you, the same applies for freedom in the sense that you can only have freedom if you do not allow your self to be enslaved.

 

[ecofarm]

Either rebute him with a song or you lose.

 

[MaggieD]

Well since you are resorting to posting music lyrics as your argument I have to gather a debate with you won't go very far as I do not post rebuttal lyrics. I will respond to your question where I think my freedom came from, and that is my creator and from within. Like the other animals of the earth, most animals are often born free or were intended to be born free and in control of their own lives. While some are born into captivity such as zoos it wasn't the original design. Citizens are born into captivity by their master (The nation) and therefore are not really free now are they?

You know the old saying you can only be taken advantage of if you let others take advantage of you, the same applies for freedom in the sense that you can only have freedom if you do not allow your self to be enslaved.

By your very own definition, animals are not born free. They are born to colonies, prides, herds, gaggles, rookeries, troops, swarms . . . each with their own societal codes, if you will. Vary by much? In the animal world, you are driven off or killed.

So. Human beings, at least here in the United States, have much greater freedom than animals. 'Cause if we don't like the party, we can get up and leave.

 

[Sherman123]

The reason I don’t care to say is that I really don’t consider nationality important or legal. Call me one of those crazy sovereign citizen types that feel they are not owned by any government.


Either that or maybe I am a product of the great US public School system? Either way, its really not important what languages I collectively speak is it? Are you trying to derail the topic with these side issues?

Legality is contingent upon some sort of organized society that actually has laws. You can think something is immoral absent the state or some sort of society with laws, but illegal? Not really. Saying you don't believe nationality is legal is confusing to say the least.

 

[SovereignElecto]

wars are not the problem. spending $$$$$$ supporting welfare cases and ingrates, presumably like yourself, is the problem. oh and all that $$$$$$ we waste in "foreign aid" to help rebuild some ****hole country after god/mother nature tries to wipe it off the planet with some natural disaster

what do they say about assuming anything? I can say I am not a welfare case or ingrate but nice try in your attempt to make a character assassination when you cannot argue a valid point.

speaking of foreign aid, do you even know who the number one recipient of US foreign aid is to and how much it is per year? 3 billion dollars in direct foreign assistance each year goes to Israel and the US tax payers must be behind it as it has been going on for decades. How is that working in rebuilding the USA? Oh its to help allies .. I get it (Rolls eyes)

 

[Sherman123]

Right. If you recall, England hardly practiced anything close to Libertarianism. It simply invaded other countries and stole things, like gold, to enrich itself. Libertarianism is not stealing--it's capitalism--paying for what you want.

In a Libertarian system, when someone defaces private or community property, or steals, the perpetrator must compensate the owners. If not, the owners have a right to retaliate with force using their own weapons to recover what was stolen or monies used for repairs.

Allowing private armies and militaries sounds more like anarcho-capitalism than anything else, and consequently is silly.

 

[Sherman123]

Well since you are resorting to posting music lyrics as your argument I have to gather a debate with you won't go very far as I do not post rebuttal lyrics. I will respond to your question where I think my freedom came from, and that is my creator and from within. Like the other animals of the earth, most animals are often born free or were intended to be born free and in control of their own lives. While some are born into captivity such as zoos it wasn't the original design. Citizens are born into captivity by their master (The nation) and therefore are not really free now are they?

You know the old saying you can only be taken advantage of if you let others take advantage of you, the same applies for freedom in the sense that you can only have freedom if you do not allow your self to be enslaved.

You are born as a ward of your parents or some other caretaker, or you die. Everyone is exposed to the most elementary building blocks of society from the moment they enter this world. How we choose to construct society is the issue at hand. But pretending like you never were exposed or involved in the process is escapism. You became involved by the act of being alive. You rush very quickly to the most visible symbol of 'oppression' the state. But why go so high? Is your family oppressing you by constraining you to their rules and orders until you reach your majority? Is your town oppressing you by acting similarly? The city? The county?

 

[SovereignElecto]

By your very own definition, animals are not born free. They are born to colonies, prides, herds, gaggles, rookeries, troops, swarms . . . each with their own societal codes, if you will. Vary by much? In the animal world, you are driven off or killed.

to a degree you are correct in terms of being born into colonies, prides, etc.. but but animals for the most part are still free in terms of not having a larger government over them.

Like animals, humans are born into a family or a clan or a tribe, etc. and yes there are cultural codes but a larger government over these individual clans enslaves or restricts freedoms, and the larger the government the more restrictions there are. IF I were born into a native Indian tribe my customs and social laws would be much different than say if I were born outside such a group. The issue comes in when the outside group feels its their duty or responsibility to include such sub cultures into their own set of rules or law. The American Indians can argue it all day long but when they were shot and killed for refusing to comply well it caused some of them injuns to want to die a proud death while others l submitted just to stay alive.

Its like the Amish being arrested for selling raw milk for violating the FDA mandate which they refused to adhere to as they felt they were not in the same system of law not to mention it wasn't like the people buying the raw milk weren't aware of what they were buying or using like their family had been for centuries. These restrictive laws enslave people, and you cannot call that freedom.

So. Human beings, at least here in the United States, have much greater freedom than animals. 'Cause if we don't like the party, we can get up and leave.

yes but you still have to pay taxes to your master, do other animals pay taxes? When you are "obligated" to pay taxes isn't that forced obligation really enslavement?

 

[SovereignElecto]

Legality is contingent upon some sort of organized society that actually has laws. You can think something is immoral absent the state or some sort of society with laws, but illegal? Not really. Saying you don't believe nationality is legal is confusing to say the least.

Ok how about if I say I do not recognize nationality as it pertains to making individuals forced into compliance to participate in the national system and paying taxes when a person's personal beliefs go against such a system of government.

 

[MaggieD]

to a degree you are correct in terms of being born into colonies, prides, etc.. but but animals for the most part are still free in terms of not having a larger government over them.

Like animals, humans are born into a family or a clan or a tribe, etc. and yes there are cultural codes but a larger government over these individual clans enslaves or restricts freedoms, and the larger the government the more restrictions there are. IF I were born into a native Indian tribe my customs and social laws would be much different than say if I were born outside such a group. The issue comes in when the outside group feels its their duty or responsibility to include such sub cultures into their own set of rules or law. The American Indians can argue it all day long but when they were shot and killed for refusing to comply well it caused some of them injuns to want to die a proud death while others l submitted just to stay alive.

Its like the Amish being arrested for selling raw milk for violating the FDA mandate which they refused to adhere to as they felt they were not in the same system of law not to mention it wasn't like the people buying the raw milk weren't aware of what they were buying or using like their family had been for centuries. These restrictive laws enslave people, and you cannot call that freedom.

yes but you still have to pay taxes to your master, do other animals pay taxes? When you are "obligated" to pay taxes isn't that forced obligation really enslavement?

Oh, just face it. Your analogy sucks wind. Ask the soldier bees who die when they defend their hives. Ask the male lions who get driven from their prides when they grow up. Ask the elephants who hold the equivalent of funerals for their fallen comrades. Ask the stags that are driven from the herd when they mature. Ask the army ants who hunt in packs. The hyenas. Their social hierarchy is just as complex, if not more exacting, demanding and unforgiving, as ours. And we have the freedom to change it. They don't.

 

[Sherman123]

Ok how about if I say I do not recognize nationality as it pertains to making individuals forced into compliance to participate in the national system and paying taxes when a person's personal beliefs go against such a system of government.

So can I ask, do you acknowledge and adhere to the laws of whatever state you are living in? (I presume it is the US)

 

[SovereignElecto]

You are born as a ward of your parents or some other caretaker, or you die. Everyone is exposed to the most elementary building blocks of society from the moment they enter this world. How we choose to construct society is the issue at hand. But pretending like you never were exposed or involved in the process is escapism. You became involved by the act of being alive. You rush very quickly to the most visible symbol of 'oppression' the state. But why go so high? Is your family oppressing you by constraining you to their rules and orders until you reach your majority? Is your town oppressing you by acting similarly? The city? The county?

When we are born our parents look out for us as this is natural. Once a person reaches the age they can care for themselves then they move on and begin to live a life under their own rule of guidance. Often with values instilled in them by their parents and the environment in which they were born, however some children do not always wish to adhere to the same values as their parents or the government that rules their parents.

 

[Sherman123]

When we are born our parents look out for us as this is natural. Once a person reaches the age they can care for themselves then they move on and begin to live a life under their own rule of guidance. Often with values instilled in them by their parents and the environment in which they were born, however some children do not always wish to adhere to the same values as their parents or the government that rules their parents.

You say that's natural, and its certainly biological. But most would argue that communal organization is fundamentally natural, with that organization leading to higher orders of society and organization as populations grow.

 

[SovereignElecto]

So can I ask, do you acknowledge and adhere to the laws of whatever state you are living in? (I presume it is the US)

I live in a state of perpetual denial,

not to mention I wouldn't publicly admit "IF" I were breaking any laws.

 

[Sherman123]

I live in a state of perpetual denial,

not to mention I wouldn't publicly admit "IF" I were breaking any laws.

My point was going to be that if you pay taxes and obey the law as I presume you do, then it seems like you aren't really behaving like a sovereign citizen except in your own mind.

 

[Henrin]

So can I ask, do you acknowledge and adhere to the laws of whatever state you are living in? (I presume it is the US)

Why would he admit it if he wasn't?

 

[Sherman123]

Why would he admit it if he wasn't?

Well I'd also imagine that its unlikely that someone is monitoring this forum, and this thread, and this post for potential/maybe acts of possibly illicit activity so they can jump down the IP and try and locate their maybe criminal who might possibly be in the US--or not.

 

[Henrin]

Well I'd also imagine that its unlikely that someone is monitoring this forum, and this thread, and this post for potential/maybe acts of possibly illicit activity so they can jump down the IP and try and locate their maybe criminal who might possibly be in the US--or not.

I don't feel that way at all.

 

[Sherman123]

I don't feel that way at all.

Well... I guess that is your prerogative, but it sounds ludicrously paranoid.

 

[SovereignElecto]

My point was going to be that if you pay taxes and obey the law as I presume you do, then it seems like you aren't really behaving like a sovereign citizen except in your own mind.

only in a mans mind can he truly be free right?

when anyone buys gas or other goods they are forced to pay taxes at the time of such transactions so even if I were against taxes I still am forced to pay them so in that form so I am enslaved like others unless I choose not to drive or buy goods.

 

[Henrin]

Well... I guess that is your prerogative, but it sounds ludicrously paranoid.

Not when you are aware how much the government knows about you. Look up sometime when you are on the street and what you will see is a camera and when you are on the phone be sure to take note of that third party listening to your calls and noticing where you are by the GPS unit in the phone and when you are on the Internet be sure to be aware of what sites you visit or you could just land in jail. And above all else, be sure to take note of all those cards you have there given to you by the state.

Call me paranoid if you want, but I will call it aware.

 

[pimptight]

I do not buy into all the self serving US propaganda about how soldiers have fought in various wars around the world to give me (and protect my) freedom or the right to have such an opinion. They cannot understand I was free and opinionated long before they ever went to war on my behalf.

For me the entire military racket and war machine is laughable (unless of course you’re at the end of the guns and are the target)

I actually feel empathy for those naive young men and women soldiers who sign up into the military branches buying into all the lies and propaganda of patriotism, honor, service, duty and that kind of empty crap rhetoric only to return home missing limbs feeling they fulfilled their duty with honor.

They don’t see they were only used as pawns for furthering other global and commercial agendas and their actions had nothing to do with spreading democracy and freedoms, but these soldiers are often so programmed there is no point in arguing with them such realities they cannot see.

I think it’s pathetic that these so called brave proud soldiers will return home to hang their metals and awards on a wall while many others will praise them and support them for their taking part in the killing of other humans and mentally scaring the children who also were exposed to these wars and battles. Hypocrisy is when a Christian nation with so many so called Christians can justify killing others around the world in the name of spreading peace, democracy, and Christian values.

This is just my personal opinion and I doubt the Christian war machine will end because I feel this way.

You shouldn't be mad at the soldiers, you should be mad at Americans.

Ron Paul's top contributors are from the military. they are voting and giving their money to the guy who believes that defense, actually means defense.

If you want to look at something, and say you would never be apart of it because of how our military is used, then you would be better off boycotting Republicans and Democrats!

 

[Surtr]

I actually feel empathy.../QUOTE]

By definition, you can't.