I have a question for anybody that believes in hell.[W 52]

[Gathomas88]

Hell is not as cut and dry a concept as a lot of people like to make out. While it can be considered to be a "punishment," after a fashion, it is ultimately just as much a self-imposed punishment as one inflicted upon a person.

"Hell" is ultimately a choice, and, in some sense, even a mercy.

After all, if one makes the conscious choice to reject God and the things he stands for, then they cannot go to heaven. That much should be obvious.

Well, where else can they really go then?

Rather than simply "uncreate" such problematic persons, God provides another alternative. He gives them another place which they may inhabit, largely free from his presence.

Unfortunately, it simply happens to the case that everything "good" in existence flows from the presence of God, so that place is kind of terrible. It's also inhabited by a great many beings - some of whom are quite a bit more powerful than you could ever be - who have made similar choices, are similarly tormented by them, and have no reason to treat you kindly.

Without God's presence, you have nothing with which to protect yourself from them.

It is interesting to note that most of the "visions of Hell" people have claimed to have actually seen seem to largely support this view.

(I apologize for the source, but it was the easiest and most immediately to the point one I happened to have available)

4 Creepy Visions of Hell From Real Near Death Experiences | Cracked.com

In the majority of cases, the torment is self-inflicted - despair, isolation, longing for things they had in life which can no longer be had in death, etca. Where it is inflicted by others, there is no particular evidence that it is taking place by divine mandate, rather than simply out of the rage carried by the other beings which happen to be present.

Granted, a lot of these might been mere fever dreams, and it's also entirely possible that these people might have simply been seeing visions that their mortal minds were capable of comprehending even if they were legitimate. However, it is something, I suppose. That is better than nothing. :shrug:

 

[ludin]

Well here's the thing...I'm "going to hell" if I don't do it your way, I'm "going to hell" is I don't do it the Muslim way, I'm "going to hell" if I don't do it the Jewish way....and there's no way to do all 3. So I'm ****ed no matter what.

And so are you.

nope I am not. I believe what Christ said and I have no reason to doubt what He said was true.

 

[Nilly]

God has done everything possible, short of violating that constraint to get us to choose Heaven and not Hell.

He most certainly hasn't.

There are an unlimited number of things that God could do that would not violate anyone's free will to get us to choose Heaven. That he does not is indicative that he is either a) vile or b) non-existent.

Granted, a lot of these might been mere fever dreams, and it's also entirely possible that these people might have simply been seeing visions that their mortal minds were capable of comprehending even if they were legitimate. However, it is something, I suppose. That is better than nothing. :shrug:

No. Any number of bad arguments do not culminate into a good one.

 

[Jerry]

nope I am not. I believe what Christ said and I have no reason to doubt what He said was true.

Yes but since you don't believe in Alah you're going to hell. And since you don't worship God as a jew you're going to hell. And since you're in for a big suprise when you get to be reincarnated.

But don't worry because death is the end and you just vanish into oblivion...or Valhalla...whichever.

 

[nota bene]

Because God is just God and won't force anyone to be in His presence, therefore the existence of free will demands an alternative to Heaven. God made that alternative a horrific place to encourage people to choose Heaven, rather than Hell.



No. Rejecting good is the greatest crime.


It wasn't independence that was the core of Satan's rebellion, it was his pride and rejection of God. Your analogy of the concentration camps is dead wrong. The correct application of that analogy would be the Jews having the choice to go to a place where they could live in eternal peace and harmony or go to Auschwitz. You seem to be stuck on the idea that God sends people to Hell and He doesn't. All He does is see YOUR choice through. If you choose to reject God, then He will not force you to spend eternity with Him and will allow you the freedom to spend eternity without Him and in suffering. You buy the ticket, God just puts you on the train that bought the ticket for.

I am going to remain hopeful that because we cannot fully appreciate our Creator's limitless imagination, we also cannot fathom His infinite capacity for mercy.

 

[ludin]

Yes but since you don't believe in Alah you're going to hell. And since you don't worship God as a jew you're going to hell. And since you're in for a big suprise when you get to be reincarnated.

But don't worry because death is the end and you just vanish into oblivion...or Valhalla...whichever.

pascalls wager is never a good argument I have found.

 

[Logicman]

My choice is to be free. That sends me to Auschwitz. All of this "people choose hell" stuff requires an unfathomable amount of cognitive dissonance. In order for hell and judgment to work, your god has to be the most evil creature imaginable and function on the same level as Vlad the Impaler.

Just for the sake of argument, where is it written that the God who controls the universe has to subscribe to your idea of being "good"?

If the facts are Jesus and eternal peace and love in heaven, or Hell forever, you going to tell me with a straight face you're going to choose Hell?

 

[Paschendale]

Just for the sake of argument, where is it written that the God who controls the universe has to subscribe to your idea of being "good"?

There isn't. Your god is pretty much the epitome of evil. He's the worst dictator in history, and cruelest butcher and torturer of children. He's Big Brother to the nth degree. He's an all powerful Kim Jong Un.

If the facts are Jesus and eternal peace and love in heaven, or Hell forever, you going to tell me with a straight face you're going to choose Hell?

What your god is offering aren't peace or love, no matter what you call them. Would you call it peace or love to be ruled by the Muslim version of god? Or how about Krishna or Amon-Ra? I doubt you would. Would to devote yourself to praising them solely because they would abuse you horrifically if you didn't?

No, if those were the facts, then there would be no peace and love unless you truly wished to be a slave. There would be subjugation or punishment. If your religion is true, then we have no freedom and are slaves from the moment we flicker into existence. Fortunately for me, it seems pretty much impossible that it is. But the universe would be a truly miserable place if it was.

 

[faithful_servant]

He most certainly hasn't.

There are an unlimited number of things that God could do that would not violate anyone's free will to get us to choose Heaven. That he does not is indicative that he is either a) vile or b) non-existent.

Such as...???

 

[faithful_servant]

There isn't. Your god is pretty much the epitome of evil. He's the worst dictator in history, and cruelest butcher and torturer of children. He's Big Brother to the nth degree. He's an all powerful Kim Jong Un.



What your god is offering aren't peace or love, no matter what you call them. Would you call it peace or love to be ruled by the Muslim version of god? Or how about Krishna or Amon-Ra? I doubt you would. Would to devote yourself to praising them solely because they would abuse you horrifically if you didn't?

No, if those were the facts, then there would be no peace and love unless you truly wished to be a slave. There would be subjugation or punishment. If your religion is true, then we have no freedom and are slaves from the moment we flicker into existence. Fortunately for me, it seems pretty much impossible that it is. But the universe would be a truly miserable place if it was.

This forum is dedicated and limited to discussions of religion, faith, and spirituality. Threads/posts critical of religion and spiritual aspects are not allowed here and will result in a B/F/T Infraction + Thread Ban.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/105486-religious-discussions-forum.html

 

[Goshin]

The problem with your plan is that it uses an entirely subjective scale of justice. It's based on the actions and how they impacted YOU. If you found out that someone had senselessly killed your dog, you might give them 2 days in Hell, but if the truth was that your dog was attacking their daughter what they did was a good thing and was deserving of reward, not punishment. This is why God's justice in this area is based on one thing and one thing only - your choice of whether or not to truly accept Him as your God. We're not talking about just saying the words, doing the stuff and making it look like He's your God (again, it's not about the your actions, but your choice), but actually making Him the Lord of your life.

As I said, it is God's call, not mine.

 

[Logicman]

There isn't. Your god is pretty much the epitome of evil. He's the worst dictator in history, and cruelest butcher and torturer of children. He's Big Brother to the nth degree. He's an all powerful Kim Jong Un.

You don't believe he exists, so how can you claim he's evil?

What your god is offering aren't peace or love, no matter what you call them.

The Gospels and Book of Revelation, etc., say you're wrong. Heaven is a place where there's "no more tears and no more sorrow."

We'll wave at you, though, from across the great chasm (Luke 16:26).

 

[Paschendale]

You don't believe he exists, so how can you claim he's evil?

There are plenty of fictional evil characters. Also I'm indulging in the hypothetical that he does exist. Fortunately, in Judaism, god doesn't do anything nasty to you after you die. Judaism is very vague about an afterlife, and certainly doesn't formalize it the way Christianity and Islam do. That's definitely better in my mind. Still not good, but definitely better.

The Gospels and Book of Revelation, etc., say you're wrong.

So does the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita, and the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and thousands of other myths. I have yet to find one more compelling than the others.

Heaven is a place where there's "no more tears and no more sorrow."

Without the freedom to dissent, I would have a great deal of sorrow. This heaven you propose is paradoxical.

 

[UtahBill]

IMO, there is no hell with fire and brimstone....unless I missed it while reading the 4 gospels....
Again, IMO, if Jesus isn't being quoted directly, it probably isn't necessary to meet God's standards. Forget the OT, and most of the NT, and the writings of every apostle unless what they say is backed up by Jesus....The gospels should be the core of Christianity, the standard that all other writers must meet.
Comparing the God of the OT and the God that Jesus talks about, I don't accept the "trinity". It was argued for over 300 years and it took an order from Constantine to make the church settle the issue once and for all, and who is to say they got it right.

 

[ludin]

IMO, there is no hell with fire and brimstone....unless I missed it while reading the 4 gospels....

Matthew 13
41The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Again, IMO, if Jesus isn't being quoted directly, it probably isn't necessary to meet God's standards. Forget the OT, and most of the NT, and the writings of every apostle unless what they say is backed up by Jesus....The gospels should be the core of Christianity, the standard that all other writers must meet.

Umm they do. Jesus mentions several times through the new testament what will happen to the unsaved. Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Comparing the God of the OT and the God that Jesus talks about, I don't accept the "trinity". It was argued for over 300 years and it took an order from Constantine to make the church settle the issue once and for all, and who is to say they got it right.

Read the bible and you will see.
they are one and the same all the verses that show the deity of Christ have been listed in this thread.

you can't be a Christian without the deity of Christ.

I know the LDS has some teachings on it but none of them are biblical or found in the bible.

 

[Nilly]

Such as...???

Provide us with a planet with enough natural resources so we have a lesser need to fight over them?

Or y'know, he could just appear in a dream for everyone instead of only appearing for a tiny percentage of people (kind of unfair dontcha thing) to give us a fair chance in actually wanting to believe in him? If you've 'experienced' God, why wouldn't he give me, or a young hindu child that same experience? If he loves us all evenly then why does he give premonitions to a certain few?

 

[Logicman]

IMO, there is no hell with fire and brimstone....unless I missed it while reading the 4 gospels....

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL!

"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" John 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am tormented in this FLAME."
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."
Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

HELL IS FOREVER!

The Truth About Hell

 

[Goshin]

Moderator's Warning:

I didn't stutter folks. Bans and infractions have been issued. When I said the RDF is not a place for discussing the non-existence of god, I meant it... and that includes pro-god people bringing it back up after the warning and trying to bait the atheists into breaking the warning. Zero tolerance hereafter for that crap.

 

[RAMOSS]

My choice is to be free. That sends me to Auschwitz. All of this "people choose hell" stuff requires an unfathomable amount of cognitive dissonance. In order for hell and judgment to work, your god has to be the most evil creature imaginable and function on the same level as Vlad the Impaler. Folks like Soot and Jerry have notions that don't require this kind of contradiction.

I don't know how you can equate "doesn't want to hang out with an evil god" to "wants to be thrown into a fire forever" and not have your head explode.

One good thing about Judaism is that there is no concept of Hell. The closest anything comes to it is the concept of Gehenna, which mostly came from the 12th century work the Zohar. It says that it is a place of punishment for up to 1 year, after which someone is either cleansed, and can go on 'to the world to come', or is granted non existence. I personally think that was highly influenced by the Catholic Church.

 

[faithful_servant]

Provide us with a planet with enough natural resources so we have a lesser need to fight over them?

Or y'know, he could just appear in a dream for everyone instead of only appearing for a tiny percentage of people (kind of unfair dontcha thing) to give us a fair chance in actually wanting to believe in him? If you've 'experienced' God, why wouldn't he give me, or a young hindu child that same experience? If he loves us all evenly then why does he give premonitions to a certain few?

We have far more than enough natural resources, we're just terrible at putting them to the best use - our fault, not His.

I don't know anyone who's faith is based on premonitions or dreams, so your assumption is flawed. As far as revealing Himself personally, that would present evidence that would be so undeniable that believing in Him would no longer be a choice, but a response to an undeniable truth and thus a violation of our free will.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Have you read Pope's "Essay on Man"? Poets' Corner - Alexander Pope - Essay on Man

Do you have shares in that work nota?

 

[ChezC3]

Whether this was broached already or not, I don't know, but the current, "reputable" opinions on this is that God doesn't send anyone, anywhere. You the individual choose hell when you choose to turn your back on God and his teachings. It is a state, a condition, a place that you decide to send yourself.

 

[Jerry]

pascalls wager is never a good argument I have found.

Then stop making it.

 

[ludin]

Then stop making it.

I am not making pascalls wager you did.

 

[joG]

Then stop making it.

Pascal's wager is only good for the mathematically adept.