I didn't choose the "ism", the "ism" chose me

[TurtleDude]

The absolute vast majority of modern Socialists do not support the death penalty, especially in first world countries. Some governments that claim to be Socialist have employed it.

The SPUSA has drawn a firm line against it
Socialist Party USA

I cannot answer for Communists, not being one.





While on principal, I agree. Political labels have a purpose beyond simply pigeon holing people.

For instance, I am a Pagan and I identify myself simply as Pagan. If I were to use the technical terminology to identify myself, I would have to identify as an Ecclectic Hellenic Pagan. Labels give us a quick way to get a general idea of what a person believes or where they stand. They are meant as a starting place that simplifies communication. The problems arise when people use labels to be all-encompassing. As another example, though I identify as Socialist, on here people frequently make wide, sweeping judgements about what that means and they are frequently wrong.

socialism and communism are nothing more than slightly different strains of the same disease

 

[Hoplite]

socialism and communism are nothing more than slightly different strains of the same disease

Spoken like someone who has no apparent knowledge of either

 

[TurtleDude]

Spoken like someone who has no apparent knowledge of either

I would be happy to compare my knowledge with yours along with my formal education with yours

both strains are parasitic. both strains subordinate individual rights to that of the state.

both are used by people who are failures or cater to failures to gain power over those who are successful

the less we have of either disease, the better

 

[Josie]

I'll be a senior Government major/History minor at a Baptist, private university this Fall. I entered staunchly conservative, but due to the countless number of mindless "conservatives" around me, I have increasingly adopted more liberal views, but still as a whole identify more with conservativism.

Hey, somebody's gotta keep them in check from drinking the cool-ade.

Also, antidisestablishmentarianism is a good one to be.

What liberal views have you adopted because of "mindless conservatives"?

 

[Johnny]

I don't know what to label myself. I gad no interest in politics until I found out about Ron Paul. His ideas about liberty, the Constitution, limited government, lower taxes, ending the Federal Reserve and so on sucked me in.

Maybe somewhere between Conservative and Libertarian could describe me. It's hard to say. That's why I changed the lean on my profile to Indepedent.

I see the neoconservatives spending and spending on the military industrial complex and a flawed foreign policy.
I see the left wasting money on social programs that don't work. I grew up in poverty, in projects, and the poverty is getting worse so I see these programs as a bandaid rather than a solution.

Both sides of the aisle bail out big business and infringe on our civil liberties.

I came to my beliefs by reading the Declaration of Indepenance and Constitution, my military service, reading about Austrian economics, reading about history (not the crap in school) and really Ron Paul's run for president started it all.

As I saw on a sign one time would apply to me.

Dr. Ron Paul cured by apathy.

 

[Mensch]

I have a great degree of respect for people who admit that they came to a particular philosophy unwillingly.

Many people seek to assimilate philosophies that agree with their particular lifestyle or way of thinking and thus often dont critically analyze their positions; they chose that position because it best suited their current schema.

However, there are others who choose positions based on the position in question being the best possible position that a combination of their faculties settled on.

For instance, I am a Socialist. I would identify as a Socialist by default, not design, because combining input from my knowledge, my morals, my education, my perception, my understanding, and my experiences, Socialism shows itself to be the best position to take.

I have used logic and my own mental tools to discard other affiliations because I find them flawed in a particular way that cannot be fixed without fundamentally changing the idea itself into something else with it's own set of problems. That's not to say I'm the only one that is right, but it means that I have arrived at my current position through a thorough review of everything I have to select the best position based on an amalgamation of my values, logic, experiences, and knowledge.

In short, I am Socialist because to be anything else would require me to deny something I felt or knew to be true and thus be intellectually dishonest with myself in order to fit myself into an ideological mold that I found preferable.

You've joined the club of Lenin! Let me congratulate you in advance for attempting to take my individual rights away.

 

[Mensch]

Spoken like someone who has no apparent knowledge of either

Then please explain why every communist in history has identified as either communist, socialist, marxist, maoist, etc? Even fascism has more similarities with socialism (in practice) versus the differences.

I would also like to remind you of the marxist socio-economic progress from socialism to communism. Lenin proclaimed the USSR socialist, and his economic five year plans were fairly centrist (he allowed a somewhat mixed economy to flourish). Lenin believed, as Marx did, that a country does not become "communist" (ie utopia) overnight. Instead, it must rely on a gradual, evolutionary process. Hence, socialism is the step right before communism. You're right on the boundary (even western Europeans don't have the guts to call themselves pure socialists...instead they're socialists masquerading as a slightly more mature, upscale version of marxist philosophy.

 

[eyer]

both strains are parasitic. both strains subordinate individual rights to that of the state.

the less we have of either disease, the better

TurtleDude is spot-on: there is no organic difference between communism and socialism, the difference is by degree.

Communism uses the hammer of force to enact the state over the individual.

Socialism uses the vote of democracy to do the same.

Different degrees, same result.

You know Hoplite, being a lover of independence and individual freedom, I have not a problem with whatever political view you choose: your choice, in itself, doesn't harm me at all...

...but, as soon as you begin activating your socialist choice - putting it into political play - you immediately begin to conscript me against my will...and I will not stand for your choice over me. You have the right to your choice - not mine.

Under socialism, the independent individual dies - involuntarily.

I thank God I don't share your political infirmity of servitude to the collective. I couldn't stand this life thinking government is man's best hope.

And I will not live this life submissive to socialism and its lemmings.



...

 

[Khayembii Communique]

recognizing that fact, my son, is a step towards enlightenment

I know I can't wait until I'm enlightened like you your so smart lol!@!!!!1

...but, as soon as you begin activating your socialist choice - putting it into political play - you immediately begin to conscript me against my will...and I will not stand for your choice over me.

Then you will meet your demise

 

[Hoplite]

I would be happy to compare my knowledge with yours along with my formal education with yours

Oh dont we have a bit of a superiority complex going

both strains are parasitic. both strains subordinate individual rights to that of the state.

Not true at all. Socialism recognizes and respects the rights of the individual and sees the state as a way to guarantee and protect them.

both are used by people who are failures or cater to failures to gain power over those who are successful

Y'know, I think I'm just going to delete it when you post rhetoric but no actual substance from now on.

Then please explain why every communist in history has identified as either communist, socialist, marxist, maoist, etc? Even fascism has more similarities with socialism (in practice) versus the differences.

Explain to me why the man who murdered Dr. Tiller called himself a Christian. I am not responsible for the labels people choose to pick up, regardless how false the claim is.

If you think Fascism and Socialism are even remotely related, you very seriously need to read up on both. Aside from a strong central state (a characteristic of probably half of all political philosophies) I cant think of a single similarity between the two.

I would also like to remind you of the marxist socio-economic progress from socialism to communism. Lenin proclaimed the USSR socialist, and his economic five year plans were fairly centrist (he allowed a somewhat mixed economy to flourish). Lenin believed, as Marx did, that a country does not become "communist" (ie utopia) overnight. Instead, it must rely on a gradual, evolutionary process. Hence, socialism is the step right before communism. You're right on the boundary (even western Europeans don't have the guts to call themselves pure socialists...instead they're socialists masquerading as a slightly more mature, upscale version of marxist philosophy.

Simply because Communism views Socialism as Communism Step 1 doesnt mean the terms are interchangeable. I do not feel Communism is the best ideology to support the human race and while I may consider it better than Fascism or Theocracy, I dont support it.

 

[drz-400]

Hoplite, is the ideal are you referring to the less extreme Social Democracy possibly?

 

[Hoplite]

Hoplite, is the ideal are you referring to the less extreme Social Democracy possibly?

If you want to get technical with labels, I favor a mix of the ideas of Social Democracy and Market Socialism.

 

[drz-400]

If you want to get technical with labels, I favor a mix of the ideas of Social Democracy and Market Socialism.

So would you be more leaning towards a large, more generous welfare state such as the Nordic Model or full state ownership?

 

[Hoplite]

So would you be more leaning towards a large, more generous welfare state such as the Nordic Model or full state ownership?

I am somewhat uncomfortable using labels because while I do agree with a lot under things like Social Democracy, I am in favor of some things and against others that that particular model holds up.

IE: Capital punishment. Most left-leaning political systems in the first-world do not support or have outlawed the death penalty however I firmly support it. I support the prohibition of drugs and a continuation (albeit a reformation of strategy) of the war on drugs.

I support state ownership of key industries such as energy, basic food production, water, basic pharmaceuticals, healthcare, etc etc and having these run by workers collectives that ultimately answer to the state.

 

[TurtleDude]

based on what i have seen I conclude

it is hard for someone who thinks the government is the answer to most problems to restrain their support for government control in other areas

those who support socialism do so for several reasons

1) they have failed to succeed in the current system
2) they want the government to have more power because they think they can harness that power for themselves
3) they are pillow headed utopians who ignore reality

there is way too much socialism in current USA. it is a cancer that keeps expanding and yes, there are some aspects of socialism that is necessary but should be seen as a necessary evil, not a benefit

 

[Harshaw]

It's funny how every "modern" Communist or socialist insists they represent the real, GOOD kind of socialism/communism, and not the "corrupted" kind which managed to systematically kill so many millions of its own people. Intentionally.

No, no. They know better. Their system would never let that happen. So, seriously, surrender your individual freedoms over. It's for your own good.

 

[Harshaw]

I have yet to meet a Socialist who is in favor of the death penalty.

I don't care who you've met. The fact remains.

There's nothing inherent about socialism that the death penalty is antithetical to.

 

[Hoplite]

I don't care who you've met. The fact remains.

There's nothing inherent about socialism that the death penalty is antithetical to.

I dont know how I can spell this out any more clearly. The SPUSA is strongly opposed to it, modern Socialist and Socialist leaning nations oppose it, I'm not aware of any prominent Socialist or Socialist thinker that advances it. The overwhelming majority of Socialists oppose the idea of the death penalty. Regardless of your opinions on the validity of that opposition, you CANNOT deny that modern Socialism as a whole does not embrace the idea.

 

[TurtleDude]

I dont know how I can spell this out any more clearly. The SPUSA is strongly opposed to it, modern Socialist and Socialist leaning nations oppose it, I'm not aware of any prominent Socialist or Socialist thinker that advances it. The overwhelming majority of Socialists oppose the idea of the death penalty. Regardless of your opinions on the validity of that opposition, you CANNOT deny that modern Socialism as a whole does not embrace the idea.

that group does not speak for most socialists anymore than the libertarian party speaks for everyone who opposes welfare socialism or other anti-libertarian statist nonsense.

Modern socialism is the most destructive and lethal force ever unleashed on the world by mankind.

 

[Hoplite]

that group does not speak for most socialists anymore than the libertarian party speaks for everyone who opposes welfare socialism or other anti-libertarian statist nonsense.

Modern socialism is the most destructive and lethal force ever unleashed on the world by mankind.

We get it, you dont like Socialism.

 

[Hoplite]

double post

 

[TurtleDude]

We get it, you dont like Socialism.

true, I would eliminate it if I had the power to do so.

 

[Hoplite]

true, I would eliminate it if I had the power to do so.

Your intolerance and Fascist leanings are noted

 

[Khayembii Communique]

It's funny how every "modern" Communist or socialist insists they represent the real, GOOD kind of socialism/communism, and not the "corrupted" kind which managed to systematically kill so many millions of its own people. Intentionally.

No, no. They know better. Their system would never let that happen. So, seriously, surrender your individual freedoms over. It's for your own good.

Good rant! I like this one.

 

[Harshaw]

I dont know how I can spell this out any more clearly. The SPUSA is strongly opposed to it, modern Socialist and Socialist leaning nations oppose it, I'm not aware of any prominent Socialist or Socialist thinker that advances it. The overwhelming majority of Socialists oppose the idea of the death penalty. Regardless of your opinions on the validity of that opposition, you CANNOT deny that modern Socialism as a whole does not embrace the idea.

Which still has nothing inherent to do with socialism.