How to solve israels problem

[Voidwar]

Thanks, but you chopped it wrong. I wasn't the one arguing that all Hezbollah supporters need to be massacred for Israel to have "peace".

Go back and re-read.
I did not say that you did.
I said you tried to characterize practicality as a "binLaden" solution, and I exposed the notion as a logical fallacy.

 

[Iriemon]

Are you suggesting that bin Laden wants to kill all the enemies of Israel, or are you not following the conversation?

LOL, no, you're the one confused! Who is suggesting bin Laden wants to kill the enemies of Israel? LOL!

No, I'm suggesting that bin Laden would say something like all Israel's supporters must be killed to have peace. Same basic thing Voidwar (Hezbollah supporters) and Face of Jacob (Israel's enemies) said, just change the side.

They're all saying that have to kill each other to have peace. Let them at it if that's what they want, just keep the US out of it.

 

[Voidwar]

The US should try to get along with the Muslim world.

They already bend over backwards.
Look at the billions of foreign aid to Islamic nations.

The Muslim world should stop making war on the U.S.

 

[Iriemon]

Go back and re-read.
I did not say that you did.
I said you tried to characterize practicality as a "binLaden" solution, and I exposed the notion as a logical fallacy.

I can't give you a direct quote, but saying that killing every last Israel supporter to have peace sounds to me like what bin Laden says. Same thing you said ("You forgot the option of killing every last Hezbollah supporter and then living in peace") just change Hezbollah for Israel.

 

[Iriemon]

They already bend over backwards.
Look at the billions of foreign aid to Islamic nations.

The Muslim world should stop making war on the U.S.

I don't think it was, but under the direction of this Admin, we have certainly come along way towards that.

 

[Voidwar]

I can't give you a direct quote, but saying that killing every last Israel supporter to have peace sounds to me like what bin Laden says.

So what do you call a sky whose color is between 450 to 500 nanometers ?

binLaden calls it blue, what do you call it ?

It makes no difference to a truth if binLaden knows or repeats said truth.

 

[mpg]

The US should try to get along with the Muslim world.

That's not what I asked you. By the time you answer, the context of my question will be lost. Is that your debating technique?

 

[mpg]

LOL, no, you're the one confused! Who is suggesting bin Laden wants to kill the enemies of Israel? LOL!

That was you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg
I agree with TfoJ.


I reckon bin Laden does too.

 

[Iriemon]

That's not what I asked you. By the time you answer, the context of my question will be lost. Is that your debating technique?

I will answer more fully. I think the US should as part of its overall strategy on the "war" on terror consider what factors are causing such widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME, and consider reasonable things it can do to reduce that. If that means "getting along with Al-Queda" to you, then yes.

 

[Iriemon]

That was you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg
I agree with TfoJ.


I reckon bin Laden does too.

I apologize for confusing you mpg. I figured when I wrote that in post #103 people could figure out by implication that I meant that bin Laden would agree with the concept that all its enemies would have to be destroyed to have peace; not that I thought bin Laden would say that all of Israel's enemies would have to be destoryed for there to be peace, as Jacob asserted. I thought the implication would be clear, because really, it's kind of silly to suppose that bin Lade would say there would be peace when all of Israel's enemies are destroyed, since it is Israel's enemy. Do you see?

But it appears my implication was confusing to you. Sorry. Is what I meant clear to you now?

 

[Voidwar]

I will answer more fully. I think the US should as part of its overall strategy on the "war" on terror consider what factors are causing such widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME,.

Thought you were going to answer more fully.

Vague terms like "factors" do not contribute to "fullness"

This is really just a veiled attempt to say the victim was wearing a short skirt.

Islam attacks us because that is whats instructed in their Manual, not because of anything we do, or don't do. Your vague "factors" are hogwash.

 

[mpg]

I will answer more fully. I think the US should as part of its overall strategy on the "war" on terror consider what factors are causing such widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME, and consider reasonable things it can do to reduce that. If that means "getting along with Al-Queda" to you, then yes.

Strike two!

I asked you if the US should try to get along with Al Qaeda. When I say "Al Qaeda", I mean Al Qaeda. I'm not asking you if the US should try to get along with the Muslim world. Almost everyone agrees with that. Like I said, the context of my question would be lost, if not for the fact that I'm about to remind you of the original context. Evasiveness is a strong sign of a weak arguement.

You suggested that Israel should try to get along with its neighbors, even though its neighbors are determined to destroy Israel, and in the case of Hezbollah, unwilling to negotiate. When I asked you if the US should try to get along with Al Qaeda, I was obviously suggesting that that was the same as Israel trying to get along with its neighbors. Actually its more reasonable for the US to try to get along with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda isn't trying to destroy the US. Expecting Israel to negotiate and find a diplomatic solution is asking an awful lot. Like I said, it's more reasonable to pressure the US to negotiate with Al Qaeda.

 

[mpg]

I apologize for confusing you mpg. I figured when I wrote that in post #103 people could figure out by implication that I meant that bin Laden would agree with the concept that all its enemies would have to be destroyed to have peace; not that I thought bin Laden would say that all of Israel's enemies would have to be destoryed for there to be peace, as Jacob asserted. I thought the implication would be clear, because really, it's kind of silly to suppose that bin Lade would say there would be peace when all of Israel's enemies are destroyed, since it is Israel's enemy. Do you see?

But it appears my implication was confusing to you. Sorry. Is what I meant clear to you now?

I got your point, however, I could just as easily switch a couple of words from one of your comments and say that it sounds like something Hitler would've said. That's the point that I was making, but you missed it.

 

[Iriemon]

Strike two!

I asked you if the US should try to get along with Al Qaeda. When I say "Al Qaeda", I mean Al Qaeda. I'm not asking you if the US should try to get along with the Muslim world. Almost everyone agrees with that. Like I said, the context of my question would be lost, if not for the fact that I'm about to remind you of the original context. Evasiveness is a strong sign of a weak arguement.

You suggested that Israel should try to get along with its neighbors, even though its neighbors are determined to destroy Israel, and in the case of Hezbollah, unwilling to negotiate. When I asked you if the US should try to get along with Al Qaeda, I was obviously suggesting that that was the same as Israel trying to get along with its neighbors. Actually its more reasonable for the US to try to get along with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda isn't trying to destroy the US. Expecting Israel to negotiate and find a diplomatic solution is asking an awful lot. Like I said, it's more reasonable to pressure the US to negotiate with Al Qaeda.

Bad call ump, that pitch was way wide. Al-Queda isn't our neighbor or a nation or a race for that matter. But not completely irrelevant. The US ultimately must get along with Muslims in the ME or live under the constant threat of terrorist attacks.

But in any event, I thought I was just stating the obvious. Israel either has to learn to get along with her neighbors or continue fight and die for eternity. What other options are there, short of genocide?

 

[Iriemon]

I got your point, however, I could just as easily switch a couple of words from one of your comments and say that it sounds like something Hitler would've said. That's the point that I was making, but you missed it.

Yeah, I completely missed the Hitler analogy.

 

[mpg]

Bad call ump, that pitch was way wide. Al-Queda isn't our neighbor or a nation or a race for that matter. But not completely irrelevant. The US ultimately must get along with Muslims in the ME or live under the constant threat of terrorist attacks.

But in any event, I thought I was just stating the obvious. Israel either has to learn to get along with her neighbors or continue fight and die for eternity. What other options are there, short of genocide?

First let me say that Israel never should've built settlements in the occupied territoties. They should all be dismantled immediately. However, it seems extremely unlikely that this would help Israel to get along with its neighbors. The only way for them to get along with their neighbors is to die. That's what their neighbors say, and I don't believe they're lying.

 

[mpg]

Yeah, I completely missed the Hitler analogy.

You're trying to miss the point, but we've both gone off on a tangent here. It has no significance to the main topic of the thread. Let's just drop it.

 

[Voidwar]

Thought you were going to answer more fully.

Vague terms like "factors" do not contribute to "fullness"

This is really just a veiled attempt to say the victim was wearing a short skirt.

Islam attacks us because that is whats instructed in their Manual, not because of anything we do, or don't do. Your vague "factors" are hogwash.

Irie! I'm still waiting on Iriemon.

 

[Iriemon]

Thought you were going to answer more fully.

Vague terms like "factors" do not contribute to "fullness"

This is really just a veiled attempt to say the victim was wearing a short skirt.

Islam attacks us because that is whats instructed in their Manual, not because of anything we do, or don't do. Your vague "factors" are hogwash.

Maybe if we stopped invading their countries on false pretexts they'd read their manual differently.

Your argument is that Muslims have always hated America same as they do now, nothing has changed, and nothing we do can change it. That's hogwash.

 

[Voidwar]

Maybe if we stopped invading their countries on false pretexts they'd read their manual differently.

WAY too vague.

So the Iraq invasion can't count, as it was after the fact, so which invasion do you mean ? The Iraq invasion happened after there was already "widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME" so that invasion is obviously NOT the cause.

Your original quote . .

I think the US should as part of its overall strategy on the "war" on terror consider what factors are causing such widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME,.

Explain the "factors".

 

[Iriemon]

WAY too vague.

So the Iraq invasion can't count, as it was after the fact, so which invasion do you mean ? The Iraq invasion happened after there was already "widespread anti-American radicalism (like Al-Queda) in the ME" so that invasion is obviously NOT the cause.

It is much worse today, IMO.

Your original quote . .

Explain the "factors".

What factors? Whatever is causing such anti-American hatred. Partisan support for Israel, pretextual invasion of Iraq, things like abu grave are main things today, from what I can gather. But throughout the past 50 years there have been other things, imposing the Shah in Iran, supporting Iraq against Iran, continued bombings of Iraq, I suppose are bigger ones.

 

[Voidwar]

Whatever is causing such anti-American hatred.

Oh, you mean Islam ?

Partisan support for Israel,

Our money to give to our friends if we choose. If someone attacks you because you gave a nephew a gift, the Phucker is crazy and needs to be put down.

pretextual invasion of Iraq,

Read harder as this one is off limits due to the timeline.

things like abu grave are main things today,

Prisons run by Islamic countries are much much worse, and we all know it, so this logic doesn't pan out. If these people had a problem with prisons and how they were run, they would be all over Turkey, with no time left for the great Satan.

imposing the Shah in Iran,

The foriegn policy in effect here was essentially, we wont let you steal all that infrestructure that was built under a contract with western Nationals. So most of our foreign policy amounts to not letting the locals steal things whenever they change governments. Nationalization of Oil infrastructure was the deal here. Iranians wanted to steal infrastructure, and lots of helicopters. Read Clavell's Whirlwind if you want to know the story.

supporting Iraq against Iran,

Russia did the same on the other side of the fence, and they are targetted a lot less, so this reasoning fails.

continued bombings of Iraq,

off limits due to timeline, as previously stated.

Shredded those, not much left, got any other vague "factors" ?

 

[Iriemon]

Explain the "factors".

A few articles I read that explain it better than I:

http://www.alternet.org/story/11590/
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=42492&d=4&m=4&y=2004
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1129/dailyUpdate.html
http://www.lssu.edu/faculty/jswedene/FULBRIGHT_FILES/Do_Muslims_hate_Americans.doc

 

[Iriemon]

Oh, you mean Islam ?

Nope.

Our money to give to our friends if we choose. If someone attacks you because you gave a nephew a gift, the Phucker is crazy and needs to be put down.

If you give support to one others feel is their oppressor, it doesn't make friends. I didn't say the US couldn't do what it wants. If you have a next door neighbor you can play loud music even if you know it bothers him. You may have the right. But don't expect your neighbors to be veyr fond of you.

Read harder as this one is off limits due to the timeline.

I disagree. It's not at all.

Prisons run by Islamic countries are much much worse, and we all know it, so this logic doesn't pan out. If these people had a problem with prisons and how they were run, they would be all over Turkey, with no time left for the great Satan.

Could be. Pehaps they don't see Americans treating others that way.

The foriegn policy in effect here was essentially, we wont let you steal all that infrestructure that was built under a contract with western Nationals. So most of our foreign policy amounts to not letting the locals steal things whenever they change governments. Nationalization of Oil infrastructure was the deal here. Iranians wanted to steal infrastructure, and lots of helicopters. Read Clavell's Whirlwind if you want to know the story.

Infrastructure given or licensed to American companies by the puppet Govt we installed where the profits went to enrich the Shah who spent billions on American military equipment?

Russia did the same on the other side of the fence, and they are targetted a lot less, so this reasoning fails.

Probably not from the Iranians' perspective.

off limits due to timeline, as previously stated.

It's not at all; I could care less what you stated.

Shredded those, not much left, got any other vague "factors" ?

Shredded what? You just gave excuses.

 

[Voidwar]

unacceptable cop out.

You can type that the factors exist, so why can't you explain what they are ?

Yeah I checked your links anyway, only took 3 paragraphs for the lies and deception to begin . .

Numerous United Nations resolutions clearly define Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem as illegal. Yet Israel receives 40 percent of all US foreign aid, more than $3.5 billion annually in recent years, roughly $500 per Israeli citizen. (The average Egyptian will earn $656 this year.)

Note this dickhead doesn't mention that Egypt is the next largest recipient,

The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.

I'm sure the rest is just as full of deception, so why don't you try backing up what you are saying, yourself ? Why don't YOU detail these factors that you claim exist ?