How things have changed: from Bernie detractor to Bernie voter

[Unitedwestand13]

Any contested convention that doesn't render a verdict of the candidate with a plurality, progressive or otherwise, is almost certain to be a disaster.

I don’t want a plurality.

I want a majority

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Or y'know, we can tap into the already existent national level movement championed by the modern avatar of FDR progressivism himself and his motivated base in an election where healthcare is the single biggest issue and MFA already polls well.

Shouldn’t it be implemented at the local level first?

 

[GreatNews2night]

Don’t expect Bernie’s health care plans to win back your state of N.C., let alone any of the other southern states in play; AZ, TX, GA, FL. You’ll be kissing CO and NV good-bye also, along with both Senate races.

None of the five Midwest states trump flipped are coming back, and MN will be lost. Senate seats in MN and MI are now in danger with bernie leading the ticket. The GOP will actually GAIN Senate seats.

The House could easily be lost, since the 43 seats flipped in 2018 were all moderate, not the bernie type. State legislatures will be crushed for another decade in REDMAP 2020. At this point, I have to question how much of a Democrat you really are.

Yes, there is a risk of losing senate and house seats. This is a real problem. Some of the people who might be persuaded to vote for Bernie in order to stop Trump, may be afraid of Bernie going too radical and may vote Republican down ballot to provide checks and balances.

But the thing is, if there is little Dem turnout with the more bland candidates, then downballot things won't get easier either.

Let's think of two hypotheticals:

A) Things stay about the same in Congress, the Dems keep the House, maybe make a couple of gains in the Senate or even flip it 51-49, but Trump still wins the EC and remains POTUS for four more years
B) Sanders wins the presidency but the Dems end up still behind in the Senate or worse, and keep the House or even lose it.

What situation would you prefer?

Me, I'd prefer B, and I've been saying why: Sanders will recover the equilibrium in the courts. Would nominate liberal judges and justices. My point is, the presidency and Congress, we can always vote them out in the next four years. The presidency has term limits anyway. The courts, however, are for a generation since these are lifetime appointments.

So, even if the Dems lose Congress but win the White House, I'd be for it.

Sure, this is a sort of particular outcome. Of course it could be even worse, the Dems might lose all three, House, Senate, and the White House. I do know that Trump is still the favorite. Vegas gives him a 61% chance of winning re-election.

I might agree with you if I thought that anybody else would have a better chance of beating Trump.

The problem is, I don't.

I think Bloomberg won't do it because he is the most controversial candidate and the one that will generate the most anger among the liberal wing, so, without any progressives to vote for him, it will be utterly impossible for him to beat Trump.

Biden is falling apart. I frankly doubt that he will stay around until the end of the primaries. Ditto for Warren.

Buttigieg is already fading in polls. The small-town mayor with little name recognition and gay, do you really think the Southern states and the fly-over states will elect a gay guy with a "first husband"? Dream on.

Only Klobuchar might have a chance but she is bland, amorphous, is still polling nationally in single digits, and I can't see her generating a lot of turnout.

How much of a Democrat I am? Well, I'm not one. Look at my profile, it says Independent. But I really, really want to beat Trump, and I intend to vote straight ticket Democrat in November.

 

[Surrealistik]

notice how you have been manipulated into posting about something/someone other than Bernie in a thread about Bernie's campaign?
keep our eyes on the prize: getting rid of tRump

I wholly reserve to right to, as needed, repudiate and counter vicious and baseless attacks from people who are demonstrably disconnected from reality.

 

[Sandy Shanks]

Bernie is more of a Democrat than most 'Democrats' in Congress. He's not a "socialist"; that's a lie, and you know it but tell it anyway. The Democratic Party is about the people, not the officials; the officials have betrayed most of the people allying with big money, and Bernie legitimately wants to change the leadership to align with the Democratic Party citizens. You are the enemy of them.

WASHINGTON — Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont offered a vigorous defense of the democratic socialism that has defined his five decades in political life on Wednesday, while tying his presidential campaign to the legacies of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Martin Luther King Jr.

Bernie Sanders Calls His Brand of Socialism a Pathway to Beating Trump - The New York Times

A vote for Bernie is a vote for a political revolution where the people gain power over the big money interests and plutocracy. Which side are you on?

The side that beats Trump, and that won't be a socialist. Read my post again.

 

[iguanaman]

Any contested convention that doesn't render a verdict of the candidate with a plurality, progressive or otherwise, is almost certain to be a disaster.

There will be no verdict when no one has 50% of the votes. Plurality is meaningless in such a large field.

 

[Surrealistik]

Shouldn’t it be implemented at the local level first?

It should be implemented where we can presently find the support for it.

We already have many proofs of concept.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Based on what? That if you don't present any counterarguments many people in opinion polls will respond positively to the concept of having everything and no longer having to pay for any of it? Alas, elections don't work like that. There will be counterarguments.

And even in overwhelmingly blue states, when the rubber meets the road for implementation or the legislative process or the initiative process, the groundswell simply isn't there. If a state ever shows it can implement single-payer and get better results than Massachusetts has gotten with its model, that will turn some heads.

I'm basing the idea that things are turning on polls showing strong support for Medicare For All. This is a very fluid race. Things change fast. Seems like popular sentiment is turning in favor of M4A. Now, if these polls are incorrect, then maybe you are right.

 

[Surrealistik]

I don’t want a plurality.

I want a majority

Thus far this is looking unlikely, and a contested/broker convention isn't likely to render a solution so much as a meltdown if it stays from the plurality.

To be clear, I personally wouldn't mind a plurality moderate so long as it isn't Bloomberg who has far too many points of weakness, and lacks any kind of ability to unify the party, given his racial animus and anathema nature relative to the FDR wing.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

It should be implemented where we can presently find the support for it.

We already have many proofs of concept.

That is the thing about building influence: start locally then grow into a national movement

 

[GreatNews2night]

Those video's sure look and sound like Bernie. Are you saying they are faked? I'm pretty sure they are real and that there are more of them. We can just wait until he is nominated to find out just how many more. There are sure some nice "sound bites" in some of them don't you think? Don't get me wrong though I will vote for him and I am in a swing state. Things do not look good here in Florida for Sanders in Nov. I'm afraid.

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - Florida: Trump vs. Sanders

Biden still does better here. Just saying.

RealClearPolitics - Election 2020 - Florida: Trump vs. Biden

It's one of the reasons I proposed Val Demings as veep for Sanders. She might be able to flip Florida blue.

 

[Surrealistik]

That is the thing about building influence: start locally then grow into a national movement

Or again, we can just press ahead where it has the momentum and following and where its implementation would preclude the need for local variants.

 

[iguanaman]

WASHINGTON — Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont offered a vigorous defense of the democratic socialism that has defined his five decades in political life on Wednesday, while tying his presidential campaign to the legacies of Franklin D. Roosevelt and Martin Luther King Jr.

Bernie Sanders Calls His Brand of Socialism a Pathway to Beating Trump - The New York Times



A vote for Bernie is a vote for a political revolution where the people gain power over the big money interests and plutocracy. Which side are you on?



Seriously, you are equating Bernie and trump?

You can't get much more dishonest than that.

The American people have a choice - continue plutocracy, or fight it by picking Bernie.

Yet all the polls show satisfaction to be high and going higher. Why do you think that is? What gives you the idea that voters want to up end the system even more than Trump has? I think they will decide that at least they know Trump and Bernie sounds "funny" and has said bad things about America. He also looks the part of a "Communist Grandpa" At least you could chose a young person and not an old ex-communist jew from Brooklyn. He could be the worst candidate ever to advance a progressive agenda. That is why Trump wants him to be the nominee badly.

New High of 90% of Americans Satisfied With Personal Life

 

[GreatNews2night]

Now I am starting to think that an open convention may be what’s necessary to force the Democratic Party to address the divide within it’s ranks

An open convention will turned bitter, a street brawl, and the party will come out of it fractured and weakened. The eventual nominee will be seen as illegitimate. Trump will win in a landslide thanks to historically low Dem turnout. It's political suicide.

 

[GreatNews2night]

I know you’re not a Sanders supporter, so I am surprised by this. I still agree with nearly all your points. Bernie wants Medicare for all, and others do, so negotiate with him. I hope, if elected, Congress would manage to pass sweeping healthcare reform, and real reform would occur. Have Medicare compete with private insurance, drastically expand Medicare, etc. there are a lot of ways to get there, and getting somewhere is better than what Trump promises.

I also think Bernie would be popular on SSN, expanding and saving SSN for generations like mine. I also believe him when he talks about student loan forgiveness. I like when he attacks corporate socialism.

I have no doubt, Bernie will fight for average people... crazy ideas or not... but he will fight. Trump will lie

Excellent points. As the fall campaign progresses, Sanders is likely to be able to make these points, and the people will start to see it.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

An open convention will turned bitter, a street brawl, and the party will come out of it fractured and weakened. The eventual nominee will be seen as illegitimate. Trump will win in a landslide thanks to historically low Dem turnout. It's political suicide.

If there is to be a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party, it will be there.

Unless a consensus candidate can emerge.

 

[GreatNews2night]

That’s only if Bernie secures the nomination outright with a majority of voters.

If no one is the clear frontrunner by the time of the convention, it will become a contested convention.

Then the party will decide who is to be the nominee.

If Bernie gets close to the majority it will be hard to drop him. Actually the party has NEVER failed to endorse the candidate with the most popular votes. Doing otherwise is political suicide. Besides, this new poll that came up today, quoted earlier in this thread, shows Bernie beating all other Dems 1 to 1, so Bernie is the only one with a path to a plain majority in first ballot.

 

[iguanaman]

It's one of the reasons I proposed Val Demings as veep for Sanders. She might be able to flip Florida blue.

You have to win by at least 3% or you lose in Florida if you are a Democrat. The GOP controls the legislature and elections and all the "squeakers" go Republican.

 

[Greenbeard]

Shouldn’t it be implemented at the local level first?

That would require first addressing the fact that it's not popular enough anywhere to be implemented locally. Not even in Bernie's Vermont.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

If Bernie gets close to the majority it will be hard to drop him. Actually the party has NEVER failed to endorse the candidate with the most popular votes. Doing otherwise is political suicide. Besides, this new poll that came up today, quoted earlier in this thread, shows Bernie beating all other Dems 1 to 1, so Bernie is the only one with a path to a plain majority in first ballot.

I am not counting anyone out until they drop out.

 

[GreatNews2night]

True.

But there is a difference between being the nominee with 60% of the delegates/votes and being the nominee with only 31% of the vote.

Bernie's percentage will grow once others drop out, especially Warren.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Bernie's percentage will grow once others drop out, especially Warren.

I think people are underestimating Warren.

If she wins second place in Nevada I imagine that she might stick around.

 

[GreatNews2night]

Oh Please....You are a bright boy yes?

Look, why is it so hard to believe? In the LOOOONG history of the Democratic Party, the convention has NEVER, EVER, NOT ONCE failed to nominate the candidate with the most delegates/popular vote. NEVER. Party officials are specifically saying they won't endorse it this year either, given that they don't want to fracture the party and the party will need to be united to beat Trump.

Why is it so difficult for you guys to give it a chance? Just for the sake of the conspiracy theory?

 

[ttwtt78640]

just because one has medicare does not compel them to use it
if you are seeking boutique care and have the money to pay for it, then why use the available medicare coverage?

The Sanders M4A bill largely precludes that possibility since medical care providers can either bill the federal government under M4A or accept paying customers but cannot do both.

 

[Linc]

You have to win by at least 3% in Florida if you are a Democrat. The GOP controls the elections.

Stacey Abrams had some interesting comments on ‘how important’ the first two state results have been. Not only would she put Georgia more in play as a VP candidate, she’d help the eight Senate candidates in that seven state region.

Pence wasn’t needed for a state. Indiana’s been a confederate state forever. Going for Obama in 2008 was a huge upset. Pence was needed in the 30 states trump carried for the evangelical vote.