• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

How is forcing someone to pay for something you are morally against NOT forcing your beliefs on them

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.
 

jnug

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 23, 2018
Messages
20,706
Reaction score
7,734
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.

Troll bait thread. Participants beware.
 

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
108,347
Reaction score
52,476
Location
Bradenton Fla
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.

I am morally opposed to the police having guns. We better take them all away...
 

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
19,860
Reaction score
13,533
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!?
I can... but it doesn't apply here.

Let's say your boss has a strong moral disapproval of eating meat. Is he justified in firing employees who use their wages to purchase and buy meat? Is it hypocritical of you to buy a hamburger with the salary he pays you?

Or, let's say your boss is a Democrat, and believes that contributions to Republicans are immoral. Is your boss justified in demanding that you refrain from donating to Republicans?

Does the boss paying for part of your health insurance give him control over your health care decisions?

The employer isn't "paying for your abortion." You're not "forcing" anything. The employer's contribution to your health insurance is just another form of compensation, and your boss shouldn't have the right to tell you what to do with your wages.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I can... but it doesn't apply here.

Let's say your boss has a strong moral disapproval of eating meat. Is he justified in firing employees who use their wages to purchase and buy meat? Is it hypocritical of you to buy a hamburger with the salary he pays you?

Or, let's say your boss is a Democrat, and believes that contributions to Republicans are immoral. Is your boss justified in demanding that you refrain from donating to Republicans?

Does the boss paying for part of your health insurance give him control over your health care decisions?

The employer isn't "paying for your abortion." You're not "forcing" anything. The employer's contribution to your health insurance is just another form of compensation, and your boss shouldn't have the right to tell you what to do with your wages.

After he pays you, IT'S YOUR MONEY. When the money is still his, forcing him to pay for something he is morally against is FORCING something. If I buy health insurance for somebody, that's my money. If the person wants their health insurance to pay for abortions, that person better purchase some PRIVATE INSURANCE that covers it.
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.

Does this mean that I will get a 30% tax cut because I disprove of the current military?

How are you being forced to pay for an elective abortion?
 

Bodhisattva

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
100,458
Reaction score
21,261
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.

Morality has nothing to do with it. It is taxes that benefit society... you may be against driving but society still builds roads.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Does this mean that I will get a 30% tax cut because I disprove of the current military?

How are you being forced to pay for an elective abortion?
'

Once they receive the actual paycheck, legally that's their business. If I have to pay for your healthcare coverage to fund it, or pay for it through taxes, that's mine. May I add that I said previously on these boards that I support privatizing the military.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Morality has nothing to do with it. It is taxes that benefit society... you may be against driving but society still builds roads.


Some people say abortion doesn't benefit society. Also some people say that abortion is forcing your beliefs on the unborn baby, saying he/she has no right to live.
 

Casper

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
26,735
Reaction score
11,514
Location
Elsewhere
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
After he pays you, IT'S YOUR MONEY. When the money is still his, forcing him to pay for something he is morally against is FORCING something. If I buy health insurance for somebody, that's my money. If the person wants their health insurance to pay for abortions, that person better purchase some PRIVATE INSURANCE that covers it.

Your benefits are considered to be part of your salary, hence what you use the insurance for is your business. That was easy.
 

Visbek

Stuck In The Circle
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
19,860
Reaction score
13,533
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
After he pays you, IT'S YOUR MONEY. When the money is still his, forcing him to pay for something he is morally against is FORCING something. If I buy health insurance for somebody, that's my money.
No, it isn't.

It stopped being "the boss's money" when the insurance bill was paid as part of your compensation. The payment for health insurance is just part of your compensation, exactly like your wages or 401(k) contributions.
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
'

Once they receive the actual paycheck, legally that's their business. If I have to pay for your healthcare coverage to fund it, or pay for it through taxes, that's mine. May I add that I said previously on these boards that I support privatizing the military.

They are also paying for that healthcare coverage or receive it as part of their benefits package and you cannot tell them how they can use what they also pay for because of your religious beliefs because they also have the same religious beliefs. Public healthcare doesn't pay for elective abortions because of the Hyde amendment.

Your religious beliefs stop at the end of your nose where the religious and secular rights of others begin. Keep your myths at home or at church where they belong.

Privatizing the military is called mercenaries. We have seen how that works with the Bush administssion using Blackwater in Iraq.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Your benefits are considered to be part of your salary, hence what you use the insurance for is your business. That was easy.

No, benefits are not part of your salary. Your employer still pays for it. If they pick out what benefits to give you, than it's their business. What if I stated that guy down the street is constantly harassing me. He's bad for my health. Hence, my insurance should pay for him to be killed. Same difference.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
They are also paying for that healthcare coverage or receive it as part of their benefits package and you cannot tell them how they can use what they also pay for because of your religious beliefs because they also have the same religious beliefs. Public healthcare doesn't pay for elective abortions because of the Hyde amendment.

Your religious beliefs stop at the end of your nose where the religious and secular rights of others begin. Keep your myths at home or at church where they belong.

Privatizing the military is called mercenaries. We have seen how that works with the Bush administssion using Blackwater in Iraq.

Who said my pro-life views were "religious"? You do realize I'm a former atheist right? Even when I was an atheist I believed homosexuality was unnatural and that abortion was murder. I also used to mock ALL RELIGIONS, especially Christianity when I was an atheist.
 

Casper

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
26,735
Reaction score
11,514
Location
Elsewhere
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
No, benefits are not part of your salary. Your employer still pays for it. If they pick out what benefits to give you, than it's their business. What if I stated that guy down the street is constantly harassing me. He's bad for my health. Hence, my insurance should pay for him to be killed. Same difference.

Nope the benefits package is part of your salay for your services, go ask your HR.
 

eman926

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2020
Messages
880
Reaction score
148
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Nope the benefits package is part of your salay for your services, go ask your HR.

Even if that's the case, the employer still has the choice what to pay you as long as it's above minimum wage, whether to give you a raise, and whether or not to give you a promotion, or whether they should even hire you in the first place. I'll use this example again.... What if I stated that guy down the street is constantly harassing me. He's bad for my health. Hence, my insurance should pay for him to be killed. Same difference.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
58,059
Reaction score
44,962
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
For example on abortion (but it can go for many things): Leftists like to say it's not their employer's business whether or not their employee has an abortion. Okay, I'll go with that. But part of them saying that it's "not their business" is that when their employer gives her health insurance, that it should include paying for abortions. Can you say hypocrisy!?!? If you are making your employer pay for your abortion, you ARE FORCING IT on him. I will play the Devil's Advocate (even though I am not entirely on board) that if you pay for an abortion on your own, and he tries to stop you, I guess in some ways than it's him forcing his beliefs somewhat. This also goes for things like forcing someone to make a gay wedding cake when he doesn't agree, or for taxpayer funding of abortions, and many other things.
Once you give someone something, it's none of your business what they do with it. Don't give your employees health insurance, if you don't like what they do with it.
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Who said my pro-life views were "religious"? You do realize I'm a former atheist right? Even when I was an atheist I believed homosexuality was unnatural and that abortion was murder. I also used to mock ALL RELIGIONS, especially Christianity when I was an atheist.

How is homosexuality unnatural? There is no ‘gay gene.’ There is no ‘straight gene.’ Sexuality is just complex, study confirms | PBS NewsHour

Do I need to explain that Lawerence v. Texas SCOTUS decision to you?


When has abortion ever been prosecuted as murder? How many abortions have you been forced to have how many times have you been forced to marry someone of your gender? The fact that you may disagree doesn't mean that others have to care about your illogical beliefs?

Nope the benefits package is part of your salay for your services, go ask your HR.

I wonder if the people who make these absurd conservative claims have ever earned a paycheck?
 
Last edited:

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
I'll use this example again.... What if I stated that guy down the street is constantly harassing me. He's bad for my health. Hence, my insurance should pay for him to be killed. Same difference.
This is absurd.

If he is harassing you then call the cops.

If your employer decides to act that way he won't find good employees and he might be violating federal workplace rights.
 

Drawdown

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
11,528
Reaction score
3,030
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I am morally opposed to the police having guns. We better take them all away...

Well your party is doing its best to ban the police. Only question is who is going to round them up and send them to furnaces for you.
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Well your party is doing its best to ban the police. Only question is who is going to round them up and send them to furnaces for you.

Defunding the police doesn't mean that there will be no police. Put down the Fox News crackpipe and read something factual.

American policing has never been a neutral institution. The first U.S. city police department was a slave patrol, and modern police forces have directed oppression and violence at Black people to enforce Jim Crow, wage the War on Drugs, and crack down on protests. When people ask for police reform, many are actually asking for this oppressive system to be dismantled and to invest in institutions, resources, and services that help communities grow and thrive. That’s why many protestors and activists, following in the footsteps of Black-led grassroots groups, are demanding immediate defunding of police departments.

The idea of defunding, or divestment, is new to some folks, but the basic premise is simple: We must cut the astronomical amount of money that our governments spend on law enforcement and give that money to more helpful services like job training, counseling, and violence-prevention programs. Each year, state and local governments spend upward of $100 billion dollars on law enforcement—and that’s excluding billions more in federal grants and resources.

Budgets are not created in a vacuum. They can be changed through targeted advocacy and organizing. We can demand that our local officials (including city council members and mayors) stop allocating funds for the police to acquire more militarized equipment and instead ask for that money to go toward community-run violence-prevention programs.

Funneling so many resources into law enforcement instead of education, affordable housing, and accessible health care has caused significant harm to communities. Police violence is actually a leading cause of death for Black men: A recent study found that 1 in 1,000 Black men can expect to be killed by police, and public health experts have described police violence as a serious public health issue. For a country like ours, which considers itself a modern democracy that pushes ideals of freedom and justice for all, that number should be truly shocking.

Much of the work police do is merely engage in the daily harassment of Black communities for minor crimes or crimes of poverty that shouldn’t be criminalized in the first place. Consider this: Out of the 10.3 million arrests made per year, only 5 percent are for the most serious offenses, including murder, rape, and aggravated assault. These are the ones that truly threaten public safety. The other 95 percent of arrests are for things like traffic violations, marijuana possession, unlawful assembly, and even removing a shopping cart from store premises. That means that police spend the most resources going after minor incidents that actually don’t threaten everyday life but do lead to mass criminalization and incarceration.

And as you know, some arrests are made for doing nothing at all beyond being Black.

We have little evidence, if any, to show that more police surveillance results in fewer crimes and greater public safety. Indeed, funneling police into communities of color and pushing officers to make arrests just perpetuates harm and trauma. Yet since the 1980s, spending on law enforcement and our criminal legal system has dramatically outpaced that in community services such as housing, education, and violence prevention programs. Those are the institutions that help build stable, safe, and healthy communities.
News & Commentary | American Civil Liberties Union
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Yep stopped reading as soon as I saw the phrase "slave patrol". Talk about crackpipes....

Early American cops were charged with slave patrol and retuning runaway slaves.
 

Drawdown

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 8, 2019
Messages
11,528
Reaction score
3,030
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Early American cops were charged with slave patrol and retuning runaway slaves.

The earliest american policing was colonial night watchmen looking for gambling, whoring, and general mischief.
 

Lisa

Salem ac Leporem
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 3, 2019
Messages
17,553
Reaction score
8,885
Location
Ohio,
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
The earliest american policing was colonial night watchmen looking for gambling, whoring, and general mischief.

The law enforcement museum site disagrees.

When one thinks about policing in early America, there are a few images that may come to mind: A county sheriff enforcing a debt between neighbors, a constable serving an arrest warrant on horseback, or a lone night watchman carrying a lantern through his sleeping town. These organized practices were adapted to the colonies from England and formed the foundations of American law enforcement. However, there is another significant origin of American policing that we cannot forget—and that is slave patrols.

The American South relied almost exclusively on slave labor and white Southerners lived in near constant fear of slave rebellions disrupting this economic status quo. As a result, these patrols were one of the earliest and most prolific forms of early policing in the South. The responsibility of patrols was straightforward—to control the movements and behaviors of enslaved populations. According to historian Gary Potter, slave patrols served three main functions.

“(1) to chase down, apprehend, and return to their owners, runaway slaves; (2) to provide a form of organized terror to deter slave revolts; and, (3) to maintain a form of discipline for slave-workers who were subject to summary justice, outside the law.”

Organized policing was one of the many types of social controls imposed on enslaved African Americans in the South. Physical and psychological violence took many forms, including an overseer’s brutal whip, the intentional breakup of families, deprivation of food and other necessities, and the private employment of slave catchers to track down runaways.


Slave Patrols: An Early Form of American Policing – National Law Enforcement Museum
 
Top Bottom