How is Being Anti-Abortion Strict Constitutionalist?

[concernedpuma]

Human development is very well researched.

And yes, that's exactly what I claimed...how many elective abortions take place after 20 weeks? (btw, your link shows that the unborn do not feel pain at 20 weeks :roll: You should have read further.)

Also, the pain factor shouldnt matter at all because just like with any medical procedure, Drs administer anesthetic. Either separately or part of the lethal injection itself. There is no pain.

Now can you please answer the bold? (yes such records are kept)

Answer (according to CDC 2104) Percentage of 2014 Reported Abortion after and including 20 weeks= a bit over 2%. Do you have a more current number, and where did you get it? Further what is an acceptable number to you?

Regards,
CP

 

[WCH]

All you have to do is convince all women that their primary worth is based on your belief that their purpose is to be a vessel for “your God”, who ensures, through supernatural means, that they have sex in order to become pregnant at God’s whim. And women who have an unwanted pregnancy is the result of women engaging in sex outside of God’s decision or plan so their punishment is to give birth against the woman’s personal decision...and suffer the consequences.

If your God is the creator of everything and can do anything - then preventing unwanted pregnancies would be an incredibly simple task. THAT would be a loving creator of the universe.

But apparently game playing with little humans must be a hoot for the creator of the universe. It’s like a kid who loves torturing and toasting ants with a magnifying glass.

There’s absolutely no rhyme or reason for our existence to be as you perceive it to be.

Not my fault you either have none or simply don't understand faith.

You do realize you can't take life for granted and continue to sin and still expect the blessings of our Lord and Savior? It doesn't work like that.

 

[Lursa]

Abortion isn't mentioned on the constitution because society in the 18th century didn't have to worry about it. If abortion was as common as it is today or even a century ago then it totally would have been in it. Abortion isn't talked about in the bible either yet any real christian knows its wrong. Are you implying that the founding fathers were pro-abortion?

What makes you think it wasnt common? What makes you think it's common today? More women give birth than have abortions, by far. There are just alot more women today.

Why did the FF's have to be pro-abortion? I'm not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. Maybe they believed it wasnt an issue because it's not an issue and it's not the govt's business?

 

[Lursa]

Answer (according to CDC 2104) Percentage of 2014 Reported Abortion after and including 20 weeks= a bit over 2%. Do you have a more current number, and where did you get it? Further what is an acceptable number to you?

Regards,
CP

OK, now: I asked for the number of elective abortions. Do you know the difference? Or are you against abortions of medical necessity? (mother or unborn)

 

[Petyr]

Please show me where in the Constitution there is any verbiage stating unborn things have ****ing Rights?

I'll wait.

Anti-abortion judges are radicals legislating from the bench. So, don't try to blow smoke up my ass by saying that judges who go out of their way to protect the unborn are strict constitutionalists. They are not. So, stop lying.

Abortion isn't mentioned on the constitution because society in the 18th century didn't have to worry about it. If abortion was as common as it is today or even a century ago then it totally would have been in it. Abortion isn't talked about in the bible either yet any real christian knows its wrong. Are you implying that the founding fathers were pro-abortion?

 

[Lursa]

Not my fault you either have none or simply don't understand faith.

You do realize you can't take life for granted and continue to sin and still expect the blessings of our Lord and Savior? It doesn't work like that.

You do realize that you cant usurp the Lord's power and take free will from women and still expect the blessings of our Lord and Savior? It doesn't work like that.

 

[concernedpuma]

Human development is very well researched.

And yes, that's exactly what I claimed...how many elective abortions take place after 20 weeks? (btw, your link shows that the unborn do not feel pain at 20 weeks :roll: You should have read further.)

Also, the pain factor shouldnt matter at all because just like with any medical procedure, Drs administer anesthetic. Either separately or part of the lethal injection itself. There is no pain.

Now can you please answer the bold? (yes such records are kept)

Sorry, should have included quotes from the site
Rep. Ralph Abraham, May 13: As a doctor, I know and I can attest that this bill is backed by scientific research showing that babies can indeed feel pain at 20 weeks, if not before.

Rep. Dan Benishek, May 13: The Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act will prevent abortions from occurring after the point at which many scientific studies have demonstrated that children in the womb can actually feel pain.

Rep. Charles Boustany, May 13: The scientific evidence is clear: unborn babies feel pain. They feel pain at 20 weeks post-fertilization.

I know the site goes on to dismiss these thoughts, I can't.
Regards once again,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

OK, now: I asked for the number of elective abortions. Do you know the difference? Or are you against abortions of medical necessity? (mother or unborn)

Nope. I believe I have stated more than once that there are times of medical necessity and won't be painted into that corner. I am against elective abortion on demand. You sttil haven't given me your statistical source. Please, oh please, don't tell me it's PP?
Regards,
CP

 

[Lursa]

Sorry, should have included quotes from the site
Rep. Ralph Abraham, May 13: As a doctor, I know and I can attest that this bill is backed by scientific research showing that babies can indeed feel pain at 20 weeks, if not before.

Rep. Dan Benishek, May 13: The Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act will prevent abortions from occurring after the point at which many scientific studies have demonstrated that children in the womb can actually feel pain.

Rep. Charles Boustany, May 13: The scientific evidence is clear: unborn babies feel pain. They feel pain at 20 weeks post-fertilization.

I know the site goes on to dismiss these thoughts, I can't.
Regards once again,
CP

I saw that. You also saw that the great majority of their peers disagree. You just choose to believe what suits your agenda. Not accepted medical science.

But as I wrote, it's irrelevant. There is no need for any pain at all for the fetus. That's just an emotional trigger for the uneducated on the issue...and obviously (and unfortunately) it works.

 

[Lursa]

Nope. I believe I have stated more than once that there are times of medical necessity and won't be painted into that corner. I am against elective abortion on demand. You sttil haven't given me your statistical source. Please, oh please, don't tell me it's PP?
Regards,
CP

What corner? Your source didnt differentiate? Then where's the proof that ANY elective abortions take place after 20 weeks?

Minnie has more of the sources on that and perhaps will share them if she sees this.

But here's why 'elective' abortions dont take place late term: because it ends up being induced labor for the unborn anyway and is more dangerous and painful than giving birth. Any woman that far along just gives birth and has the added incentive of $$$ for adoption of the baby.

You want the govt all up in women's business *for no reason* except your emotionally driven beliefs.

 

[concernedpuma]

You do realize that you cant usurp the Lord's power and take free will from women and still expect the blessings of our Lord and Savior? It doesn't work like that.

Careful. You are being drawn in to an argument defending God, He will take care of Himself and belief is somehow turned against a believer in these days. The question of abortion on demand is a case of humanity. Life is not only for those who are alive, it is also for those who would live after us. Someday, all of us will be called to explain ourselves.
Regards,
CP

 

[calamity]

Abortion isn't mentioned on the constitution because society in the 18th century didn't have to worry about it. If abortion was as common as it is today or even a century ago then it totally would have been in it. Abortion isn't talked about in the bible either yet any real christian knows its wrong. Are you implying that the founding fathers were pro-abortion?

Well, it's not a very forward thinking Lord to not know abortion would be a huge issue in a few thousand years. Now is he?

 

[Lursa]

Careful. You are being drawn in to an argument defending God, He will take care of Himself and belief is somehow turned against a believer in these days. The question of abortion on demand is a case of humanity. Life is not only for those who are alive, it is also for those who would live after us. Someday, all of us will be called to explain ourselves.
Regards,
CP

The Lord has given us all free will. It is a complete arrogant usurpation of His Word to use govt force to take away that free will to make law in His Name.

We have a Constitution on which to base laws which protect people's rights. And all persons living under that Constitution are a) protected by it and b) protected by due process from losing those rights.

 

[year2late]

Abortion isn't mentioned on the constitution because society in the 18th century didn't have to worry about it. If abortion was as common as it is today or even a century ago then it totally would have been in it. Abortion isn't talked about in the bible either yet any real christian knows its wrong. Are you implying that the founding fathers were pro-abortion?

I do not think it is as uncommon as you think. It was talked about by our founding fathers. If you are interested, her is something that will give you an idea of what to look for if you want to study it further.

American Creation: The Founding Fathers and Abortion in Colonial America

If you want to look things up there are interesting interactions between Thomas Jefferson and American Indians that practices abortions because that could leave the pregnant woman in an unsafe situations in the wilderness and such.

I would never say they all agreed with it....but there is a lot of evidence that indicated abortion was not rare and was talked about and practiced.

 

[concernedpuma]

I saw that. You also saw that the great majority of their peers disagree. You just choose to believe what suits your agenda. Not accepted medical science.

But as I wrote, it's irrelevant. There is no need for any pain at all for the fetus. That's just an emotional trigger for the uneducated on the issue...and obviously (and unfortunately) it works.

The uneducated? Do you mean those who disagree with you? All of us; are you sure? And the idea that you so blithely accept the TRUTH's from the very types of people who gave us the flat earth, and leech treatment for removing angry blood, is somewhat disappointing. You surely don't think that the Medical Community will never say, Gee we were sure wrong about that?

An emotional trigger, yes. Why aren't you concerned? What went wrong?

Regards,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

The Lord has given us all free will. It is a complete arrogant usurpation of His Word to use govt force to take away that free will to make law in His Name.

We have a Constitution on which to base laws which protect people's rights. And all persons living under that Constitution are a) protected by it and b) protected by due process from losing those rights.

All granted. That is why it is necessary to change the Constitution with regard to abortion.
Regards,
CP

 

[Lursa]

The uneducated? Do you mean those who disagree with you? All of us; are you sure? And the idea that you so blithely accept the TRUTH's from the very types of people who gave us the flat earth, and leech treatment for removing angry blood, is somewhat disappointing. You surely don't think that the Medical Community will never say, Gee we were sure wrong about that?

An emotional trigger, yes. Why aren't you concerned? What went wrong?

Regards,
CP

Yup...the uneducated. Like yourself that doesnt know about the lack of *elective* abortions late term. Or that the unborn dont feel pain at 20 weeks (reacting to stimuli is not the same as a nervous system that has pain receptors. Reading more will provide that info). Or that didnt know that anesthetic is provided and no pain would be felt anyway.

 

[Lursa]

All granted. That is why it is necessary to change the Constitution with regard to abortion.
Regards,
CP

And then that changes the Constitutional rights of women. How do you justify that?

The born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law. One or the other would have their rights superseded by the other.

Why would/should the unborn be valued more than women? The harm to society would be terrible if women were to realize they were being relegated back to 2nd class citzens again. It teaches girls and women that they are not equal to men OR the unborn.

There is no harm done to society by abortion. If there is, I'd like to see sources for that.

I value the unborn but I value women more.

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

And here's why the unborn are clearly not equal to born people:

"Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

They do not have a single right that they can exercise independently."

 

[minnie616]

Answer (according to CDC 2104) Percentage of 2014 Reported Abortion after and including 20 weeks= a bit over 2%. Do you have a more current number, and where did you get it? Further what is an acceptable number to you?

Regards,
CP

1.3 percent of abortions take place 21 weeks and later.

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

Between 18 and 20 weeks, pregnant women undergo an ultrasound exam.
Women look forward to that ultrasound exam because doctors tell them they will learn the sex of the unborn then.
But that exam also attempts to identify abnormalities in organs that don’t show up in blood tests and usually will not be visible in an earlier ultrasound .

If the ultrasound is abnormal it takes a little time for follow up tests to find out how severe the abnormalities are.

Aborting for medical reasons is not elective.

It is not by choice.

The woman wanted and was looking forward to a healthy little one.

The late abortions are because something went terribly wrong with the pregnancy.

 

[Petyr]

Please show me where in the Constitution there is any verbiage stating unborn things have ****ing Rights?

I'll wait.

Anti-abortion judges are radicals legislating from the bench. So, don't try to blow smoke up my ass by saying that judges who go out of their way to protect the unborn are strict constitutionalists. They are not. So, stop lying.

What makes you think it wasnt common? What makes you think it's common today? More women give birth than have abortions, by far. There are just alot more women today.

Why did the FF's have to be pro-abortion? I'm not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. Maybe they believed it wasnt an issue because it's not an issue and it's not the govt's business?

It wasn't common then because their society was not sex obsessed like it is today causing less unplanned pregnancies and causing fewer abortions. here are some stats from 2014 that make me think it is common Nearly half (45%) of all pregnancies among U.S. women in 2011 were unintended, and about four in 10 of these were terminated by abortion.1
Nineteen percent of pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) in 2014 ended in abortion.1
Approximately 926,200 abortions were performed in 2014, down 12% from 1.06 million in 2011. In 2014, some 1.5% of women aged 15–44 had an abortion.2 Just under half of these women (45%) reported having a previous abortion.3
The abortion rate in 2014 was 14.6 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44, down 14% from 16.9 per 1,000 in 2011.2 This is the lowest rate ever observed in the United States; in 1973, the year abortion became legal, the rate was 16.3.4
At 2014 abortion rates, one in 20 women (5%) will have an abortion by age 20, about one in five (19%) by age 30 and about one in four (24%) by age 45.5.
can you explain why its not an issue?

 

[calamity]

It wasn't common then because their society was not sex obsessed like it is today causing less unplanned pregnancies and causing fewer abortions. here are some stats from 2014 that make me think it is common Nearly half (45%) of all pregnancies among U.S. women in 2011 were unintended, and about four in 10 of these were terminated by abortion.1
Nineteen percent of pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) in 2014 ended in abortion.1
Approximately 926,200 abortions were performed in 2014, down 12% from 1.06 million in 2011. In 2014, some 1.5% of women aged 15–44 had an abortion.2 Just under half of these women (45%) reported having a previous abortion.3
The abortion rate in 2014 was 14.6 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44, down 14% from 16.9 per 1,000 in 2011.2 This is the lowest rate ever observed in the United States; in 1973, the year abortion became legal, the rate was 16.3.4
At 2014 abortion rates, one in 20 women (5%) will have an abortion by age 20, about one in five (19%) by age 30 and about one in four (24%) by age 45.5.
can you explain why its not an issue?

I guess we can start burning harlots at the stake again. Maybe that will cure the abortion fetishists.

 

[Lursa]

It wasn't common then because their society was not sex obsessed like it is today

Ah. so your basic premise is wrong to begin with.

People have been 'obsessed' with sex since...there were people.

It's the strongest instinct on the planet.

 

[concernedpuma]

Yup...the uneducated. Like yourself that doesnt know about the lack of *elective* abortions late term. Or that the unborn dont feel pain at 20 weeks (reacting to stimuli is not the same as a nervous system that has pain receptors. Reading more will provide that info). Or that didnt know that anesthetic is provided and no pain would be felt anyway.

It isn't a pain you will feel, certainly. It is wrong to minimize that pain to allow for pain you won't have. There is no lack of elective abortions. What there are, are calloused view's and the missing desire to protect the least of us.
I still wonder why you use the term uneducated? It almost sounds like you don't acknowledge an opposing view and have to rationalize it to yourself. I am satisfied with my education, and don't think I need to learn from anyone on this topic. I choose to disengage here, because the conversation is becoming circular. You are clearly a believer in death to the unborn based on what you read today, and I don't think I will change your mind. You surely won't change mine.
Respectfully,
CP

 

[Lursa]

can you explain why its not an issue?

Can you explain why it is an issue?

Here's why it's not, IMO. (From a previous post):

Can you possibly fathom about 500,000 additional unaffordable or unwanted kids in the US?

On top of all the kids already:

--in foster care?
--waiting to be adopted (over 100,000)?
--being neglected and abused?
--requiring taxpayer $$ in public assistance of some kind?
--requiring that many men to pay child support (or marry the woman)?

Those unfortunately aborted at least dont suffer anything. Yet more could increase suffering overall.


Can you please list the negative effects of abortion on society?

 

[Lursa]

It isn't a pain you will feel, certainly. It is wrong to minimize that pain to allow for pain you won't have. There is no lack of elective abortions. What there are, are calloused view's and the missing desire to protect the least of us.
I still wonder why you use the term uneducated? It almost sounds like you don't acknowledge an opposing view and have to rationalize it to yourself. I am satisfied with my education, and don't think I need to learn from anyone on this topic. I choose to disengage here, because the conversation is becoming circular. You are clearly a believer in death to the unborn based on what you read today, and I don't think I will change your mind. You surely won't change mine.
Respectfully,
CP

Uneducated clearly fits since I provided information that you did not know. (Or choose to not accept but that's more blind ignorance. In any case, both can be corrected if you choose to).

There are elective abortions, when did I ever deny that? However they are not late term abortions which YOU were discussing. 97.5% of all abortions take place when the unborn is pea-sized and flushed painlessly from the womb.

I acknowledge the opposing views, I am almost completely cutting and pasting my replies to you from former discussions. I am not saying you cant hold those views, I'm pointing out incorrect information or trying to provide another perspective that pro-life people often dont know or prefer not to acknowledge.

I saw nowhere where you were able to justify laws valuing the unborn over women, and I posted politely and constructively on that.

Here it is at it's most basic:

The born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law. (Nor ethically IMO)

And

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.