How is Being Anti-Abortion Strict Constitutionalist?

[WCH]

So now you are an authority on women and their bodies? That is why you think you can control them? Mind your own business and get a life.

You won't find a women in my life that thinks any of those things about me. Not a one.

You just keep supporting the deaths of the innocent for all the selfish reasons in your head.

 

[WCH]

I think folks frequently jump to the misogyny conclusion too soon.....but this post wreaks of it.

Did I say something that wasn't true? If one in four women have an abortion by age 45, something is terribly wrong.

 

[iguanaman]

You won't find a women in my life that thinks any of those things about me. Not a one.

You just keep supporting the deaths of the innocent for all the selfish reasons in your head.

No one dies in an abortion. Men who want to force women to bear a child are the selfish and evil ones. You should be ashamed.

 

[Lursa]

Did I say something that wasn't true? If one in four women have an abortion by age 45, something is terribly wrong.

With what? Again...absolutely no harm has been done to society. You imagine that....but if individual women or couples suffer, that is a consequence. Our actions do have consequences.

Just like with divorce, one of the most difficult and stressful decisions people make today...it's painful and sad but in the long run, the family is better off. It's the hope for a better future for the family.

 

[D_NATURED]

I've been what you would call "secular" in my life and I still thought abortion was evil. Now that I have found my faith once more, it's a confirmation.

I wouldn't brag so much about having your most stupid opinions confirmed by faith. It's almost a redundancy.

No secular person would describe abortion as "evil". That is the perspective of demagogues. Evil is part of the binary conservative worldview that actually doesn't exist outside their imaginations. If evil was a real thing, it would be embodied by those who use the authority granted by a fake god to do real harm to young women. That's the kind of **** you guys do proudly, as a narrow-minded reaction to the loss of control over women that the sexual revolution gave them.

 

[year2late]

You won't find a women in my life that thinks any of those things about me. Not a one.

You just keep supporting the deaths of the innocent for all the selfish reasons in your head.

Most women who chose abortion are already struggling to care for a child at home.

What you deem as "selfish" is frequently a woman facing the fear of the safety and well being of her born child.


I should have had an "easy" pregnancy but I ended up with 2 life threatening complications and a required C-section unrelated to the complications. If I had a child at home and poor social and/or financial resources.....my child easily could have ended up in foster care - there are some exceptional homes and some really nightmarish situations.


While you have moral (not factual) certainty that the zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to a born child - she may not share that perspective. So from her perspective, having an abortion may be for the sake and safety of her born child - NOT a selfish act.


I like to be pragmatic. I would like to see better birth control option (think long term implantables) be more available to women. But those who are too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance cannot afford the cost - the cost is about twice the cost of an abortion. I would love to see men more proactive about their own reproductive choices as well. But each party can onlu control their own actions.

 

[WCH]

No one dies in an abortion. Men who want to force women to bear a child are the selfish and evil ones. You should be ashamed.

Why don't you just tell the real reason you want to keep abortion legal? Then we'll see who should be ashamed.

Keeping the kid I helped create alive....I'll never be ashamed of that.

 

[WCH]

I wouldn't brag so much about having your most stupid opinions confirmed by faith. It's almost a redundancy.

No secular person would describe abortion as "evil". That is the perspective of demagogues. Evil is part of the binary conservative worldview that actually doesn't exist outside their imaginations. If evil was a real thing, it would be embodied by those who use the authority granted by a fake god to do real harm to young women. That's the kind of **** you guys do proudly, as a narrow-minded reaction to the loss of control over women that the sexual revolution gave them.

Yea as long as you don't have to take responsibility.. everything is GOOD.

Like it or not one day you will have to account for your sins.You and the millions of others who ignore the Law and the Gospel.

 

[WCH]

Most women who chose abortion are already struggling to care for a child at home.

What you deem as "selfish" is frequently a woman facing the fear of the safety and well being of her born child.


I should have had an "easy" pregnancy but I ended up with 2 life threatening complications and a required C-section unrelated to the complications. If I had a child at home and poor social and/or financial resources.....my child easily could have ended up in foster care - there are some exceptional homes and some really nightmarish situations.


While you have moral (not factual) certainty that the zygote, embryo, or fetus is equal to a born child - she may not share that perspective. So from her perspective, having an abortion may be for the sake and safety of her born child - NOT a selfish act.


I like to be pragmatic. I would like to see better birth control option (think long term implantables) be more available to women. But those who are too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance cannot afford the cost - the cost is about twice the cost of an abortion. I would love to see men more proactive about their own reproductive choices as well. But each party can onlu control their own actions.

I wasn't talking about women.

 

[iguanaman]

Why don't you just tell the real reason you want to keep abortion legal? Then we'll see who should be ashamed.

Keeping the kid I helped create alive....I'll never be ashamed of that.

It figures that you would need to force a women to do that and that is shameful.

 

[WCH]

It figures that you would need to force a women to do that and that is shameful.

I can't force a woman to do that so, blab on.

You would probably force her to get an abortion.

 

[straykatz]

Denying "safe" abortion is just a form of control and there are a whole lot of people who think it is their right to control what others do...specifically women with their bodies. In many cases these are the same people who would deny decent wages, welfare programs, planned parenthood, prenatal care, birth control, etc. Taking away abortion rights in this country will not put an end to abortion but only an end to obtaining medically safe abortions.

 

[cpwill]

So human empathy is expanding to consider the life of the unborn more valuable than the entirety of the life and future of the woman?

For example, our empathy expanded to recognize that the slave's right to self-ownership was greater than the slave-owners right to exercise property rights over other human beings.

But, you knew that when you created this strawman.

I wouldnt say that that is progress.

Neither did the Southern Whites.

 

[concernedpuma]

OK. How do you deny right to life to a fully formed, viable human being just because they haven't poked through the vagina? My view is that people who support full term abortion are wicked, and the doctors who perform these grisly practice are murderers.

Seems unusual, but welcome, that a person describing themselves as Progressive has the courage to take a view opposite the majority.
Thank you,
CP

 

[concernedpuma]

:applaud:applaud

This is my take on that:

Before birth, the unborn has no rights that can be separated from the mother (physically, legally, ethically, practically). It's a dependency that truly demonstrates that it is not equal.

They do not have a single right that they can exercise independently.

How easy it will be once you cross the line, to make that argument until a person is Eighteen(21 in some states) or maybe would include the retarded to a certain age? It is generally accepted that Children grow to be(us) the sum total of learning beginning in the cradle. If a society is bent upon destroying the unborn, the sky is the limit, isn't it? I have no quarrel(or right to interfere) with a man or woman's choice for their own health. I do reject that the argument that abortion is a choice about what a woman can inflict on the unborn. I have a bigger problem with abortion for convenience. The choice of nature to place the unborn in a woman's body is not then a right to destroy that child, because it is ill timed, or the wrong sex. I have been properly corrected by a poster and I wish to admit I feel that some abortions are necessary. I accept rape, incest and Genuine health of the mother as acceptable, but regrettable. Not just because a fetus resulted.

Regards,
CP

 

[year2late]

Why don't you just tell the real reason you want to keep abortion legal? Then we'll see who should be ashamed.

Keeping the kid I helped create alive....I'll never be ashamed of that.

Oh pray tell, what is your perception of the real reason? Does it involve Satan and sacrifice?

 

[Slavister]

OK. How do you deny right to life to a fully formed, viable human being just because they haven't poked through the vagina? My view is that people who support full term abortion are wicked, and the doctors who perform these grisly practice are murderers.

What the heck is a "full term abortion"? There is no such thing... not medically, not legally. Perhaps by "full term abortion" you mean "birth"?

As for poking head through the vagina, when it's a question of weighting life of fetus or life or health of mother, the second takes precedence even if the former is "after the point of viability". That position of the Supreme Court makes sense to me.

 

[concernedpuma]

Denying "safe" abortion is just a form of control and there are a whole lot of people who think it is their right to control what others do...specifically women with their bodies. In many cases these are the same people who would deny decent wages, welfare programs, planned parenthood, prenatal care, birth control, etc. Taking away abortion rights in this country will not put an end to abortion but only an end to obtaining medically safe abortions.

This is framed somewhat disingenuously. Every law is an intrusion on the willful skirting of that law by an individual, isn't it? So, the obvious conclusion is that law's are intended to protect ourselves, from ourselves. I'm afraid abortion is so odious and unnecessary (Usually), Society is entitled to an opinion. Any good reason it has never been open to a national vote?
Regards,
CP

 

[WCH]

Oh pray tell, what is your perception of the real reason? Does it involve Satan and sacrifice?

It could but just as likely is the need to make sure he won't have to be responsible for raising or paying for the child. You don't think guys support abortion because of anything to do with a woman's choice, do you?

FWIW, they'll never admit that.

 

[Lursa]

For example, our empathy expanded to recognize that the slave's right to self-ownership was greater than the slave-owners right to exercise property rights over other human beings.

But, you knew that when you created this strawman.




Neither did the Southern Whites.

How is it a strawman? That's what it comes down to. "Your opinion" that "enough empathy" to enable the unborn rights that supersede women's rights is somehow a more moral position.

And even more of a problem (IMO), women recognize the disrespect. We KNOW that a part of the population values the unborn more than us. That the part of the population would be willing to see us as 2nd class citizens again, with our rights superseded by the unborn.

Girls would learn this, growing up, that their bodies are not their own but subject to govt decision to impose force to change their futures. How did the draft go over? Popular? But at least that served a purpose that benefits society. There are no benefits to society (that anyone has been able to reveal) to making abortion illegal.

The born and the unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, as your response seems to imply (which slave and slave owner can be). Nor ethically IMO.

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

And if you want to discuss empathy...the woman, all women, would suffer. The unborn would not. So again, illegal elective abortion does not = a more empathetic society or any higher moral standard at all.

 

[Lursa]

How easy it will be once you cross the line, to make that argument until a person is Eighteen(21 in some states) or maybe would include the retarded to a certain age? It is generally accepted that Children grow to be(us) the sum total of learning beginning in the cradle. If a society is bent upon destroying the unborn, the sky is the limit, isn't it? I have no quarrel(or right to interfere) with a man or woman's choice for their own health. I do reject that the argument that abortion is a choice about what a woman can inflict on the unborn. I have a bigger problem with abortion for convenience. The choice of nature to place the unborn in a woman's body is not then a right to destroy that child, because it is ill timed, or the wrong sex. I have been properly corrected by a poster and I wish to admit I feel that some abortions are necessary. I accept rape, incest and Genuine health of the mother as acceptable, but regrettable. Not just because a fetus resulted.

Regards,
CP

Cross what line? A line that enables the govt to demand that women remain pregnant against their will and all the Constitutional violations that go with it?

Exactly what moral High Ground do you think you hold? For the govt to get involved even in if an abortion is medically necessary or not entails a violation of women's rights.

The reasons are none of your business to judge. Or the govts. At this point, the govt recognizes that. They respect that women make the best decisions they can for their own lives and those of their families (elderly, disabled family, current kids...you have no idea what they deal with. Most women that have abortions already have at least one kid).

As for convenience, do you teach your kids that finishing high school is 'a convenience?' That higher education or learning a trade is 'a convenience?' That staying off public assistance and being independent is 'a convenience?" That living in a safe neighborhood in a decent home is 'a convenience?' That having a career instead of a 'job' is 'a convenience?' That being able to contribute to society and reaching your potential is 'a convenience?'

You may. You may teach/have taught your kids that. You may value everything in life as 'conveniences.' I do not.

A life is much more than just breathing.

 

[Lursa]

This is framed somewhat disingenuously. Every law is an intrusion on the willful skirting of that law by an individual, isn't it? So, the obvious conclusion is that law's are intended to protect ourselves, from ourselves. I'm afraid abortion is so odious and unnecessary (Usually), Society is entitled to an opinion. Any good reason it has never been open to a national vote?
Regards,
CP

You think you are entitled to subject the entirety of a woman's life and future to your opinion, your judgement? Or any other stranger in the US? What kind of arrogance is that? You are not the one that will have your rights AND your body violated.

Again...you hold no moral High Ground here.

 

[year2late]

It could but just as likely is the need to make sure he won't have to be responsible for raising or paying for the child. You don't think guys support abortion because of anything to do with a woman's choice, do you?

FWIW, they'll never admit that.

You do understand that being pregnant can thrust a woman into poverty and place her born children at risk, right? I lost 6 months of work due to pregnancy issues/C-section. My pregnancy was expected to be "easy". Can you imagine a woman that was already working poor (most abortion recipients)? Serious c0mplications could place her born child in a unsafe spot, possibly even foster care. NOT YOUR choice what risk to take with her body.


Now, would I like sexually active woman (and eventually men) to have access to safe AFFORDABLE long term (most reliable) contraception so they can avoid abortion -hell yes! Right now the women most at risk for abortion, those too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance cannot afford long term birth control - which can be twice the cost of abortion!!

 

[WCH]

You do understand that being pregnant can thrust a woman into poverty and place her born children at risk, right? I lost 6 months of work due to pregnancy issues/C-section. My pregnancy was expected to be "easy". Can you imagine a woman that was already working poor (most abortion recipients)? Serious c0mplications could place her born child in a unsafe spot, possibly even foster care. NOT YOUR choice what risk to take with her body.


Now, would I like sexually active woman (and eventually men) to have access to safe AFFORDABLE long term (most reliable) contraception so they can avoid abortion -hell yes! Right now the women most at risk for abortion, those too rich for Medicaid and too poor for insurance cannot afford long term birth control - which can be twice the cost of abortion!!

I don't have a problem with contraception. I have a problem with abortion being used as such by the irresponsible/uncaring.

So we do agree on a lot.

 

[Removable Mind]

How is it a strawman? That's what it comes down to. "Your opinion" that "enough empathy" to enable the unborn rights that supersede women's rights is somehow a more moral position.

And even more of a problem (IMO), women recognize the disrespect. We KNOW that a part of the population values the unborn more than us. That the part of the population would be willing to see us as 2nd class citizens again, with our rights superseded by the unborn.

Girls would learn this, growing up, that their bodies are not their own but subject to govt decision to impose force to change their futures. How did the draft go over? Popular? But at least that served a purpose that benefits society. There are no benefits to society (that anyone has been able to reveal) to making abortion illegal.

The born and the unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, as your response seems to imply (which slave and slave owner can be). Nor ethically IMO.

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

And if you want to discuss empathy...the woman, all women, would suffer. The unborn would not. So again, illegal elective abortion does not = a more empathetic society or any higher moral standard at all.

:applaud