How is abortion not murder?

[steen]

Sorry, my mistake:...

Etc. What does any of that have to do with the false claim that abortion is murder?

 

[steen]

- Again, the verdict in the Scott Peterson Murder case proves you wrong.

That law you are arguing for is specifically stating that it has no bearing on abortions. That is clear legislative intent, and as such, your claim of it having bearing on abortions is starkly dishonest.

 

[steen]

Well, I am a libertarian, a pro-life libertarian, a 100% pro-life libertarian.

That makes you much less than a 100% libertarian, whose party specifically and fully says that abortion should not be mlegislated. As libertarians go, you are not a very good one.

 

[steen]

I just fear the whole eugenics/abortion/euthanasia movement will lead to Nazism like it did before.

The prolife ideal of imposing the state onto a woman's private body is very much in line with the NAZI policies. If any political leaniong is close to NAZI on the abortion issue, it is the prolifers.

Failure to remember the past means it will repeat itself.

SO you obviously didn't remember that Hitler was anti-choice.

I do not mean it is as a personal insult, but how can you have so little regard for the innocent?

I do not mean it is as a personal insult, but how can you have so little regard for the woman?

I even have enough regard for the evil as humans that I would not kill Hitler or Stalin, but you will even go so far as to slaughter the weakest and most innocent.

That is just pure hate mongering hyperbole. please avoid such histrionic violence baiting, thanks.

 

[steen]

Look, what I meant by that was that lowered value for human life (which pro-choice movement is)

A lie. We place high value on womens' lives, whereas prolifers sees her as somebody to enslave and oppress.

is what leads to Nazism and things that involve mass death.

Which was all about the State imposing itself into people's provate lives and controlling their bodies. EXACTLY like prolifres. So per your argument, prolifers must be NAZI, right?

Of course, abortion is worse than Nazism because it kills more people. So I must say that the President of NARAL makes Hitler look like a teddy bear.

So now we are back to the idea that killing the Jews of Europe is just nothing compared with abortion of non-sentioent tissue. Back to the hate mongering anti-semitism.

 

[Axismaster]

Nazis? What the heck, one of Hitler's first acts as chancellor was to legalize abortion! If NARAL had existed back then, he would probably have been the President of it.

 

[steen]

Nazis? What the heck, one of Hitler's first acts as chancellor was to legalize abortion! If NARAL had existed back then, he would probably have been the President of it.

What deliberate nonsense and falsehood. Hitler was NOT prochoice. he prohibited abortions for "aryans" and pushed it for the "lesser races." Hitler was anti-choice, hitler is the example of what happens when the state decides abortion policies (incidentially, this is what the prolifers are trying to implement).

 

[ngdawg]

Semi-thread hijack:

Axismaster is 15-making him probably a 9th grader. While he is not juvenile in his prose, I will have to say he is limited in his knowledge of events, both current and historical. He has stated that he has been 'involved' or has knowledge of white supremacy, now he states his 'position' here. It seems evidential to me, at least, that he absorbs, then repeats phrases from views that he feels reflect his own.
While, personally, I don't care what you feel about a subject, as long as it is genuine, I do need to point out that following a doctrine of word-twisting, name-calling and using personal thought as fact is not conducive to bringing any kind of understanding or learning.
It is also not conducive to a debate to use outlandish conclusions as fact. I would very strongly suggest, Axismaster, that when a particular point is brought up that you do not agree with or have knowledge of, you Google it.
I do my best to link my facts from different sources. If you have facts, I would suggest doing the same.
I would also suggest that bringing Hitler and/or Nazism to a debate is a ploy that you should avoid. It is called "goodwin's law", and whoever uses it is generally the debate loser as they simply can't back up anything they say without resorting to it.


Carry on....

 

[Stace]

Eh, I doubt we'll be seeing too much more of him....this is one of his latest blog entries:

I recently discovered Political Crossfire which I believe to be the world's largest politics forum. It has over 7600 members. In fact, I don't think I have seen a forum that is much bigger than this in any context. Actually, I have always wondered what the world's largest forum is. Oh well, I doubt I will ever know. You can probably find me in the forum now. I used to be at a smaller place called Debate Politics but now I am someplace much bigger.

 

[tecoyah]

Eh, I doubt we'll be seeing too much more of him....this is one of his latest blog entries:

May he find the peace he seeks.....there.

 

[easyt65]

If you go out, have unprotected sex, then are faced with being pregnant - it is NOT a punishment! It IS a consequence of the act of having un[protected sex. YOU are NOT the vicitm! you were stupid, let your hormones get ahead of your brain cells, and got pregnant! Being stupid does not give you the RIGHT to an abortion, used as post sex contraception!

In such a case, the morning after pill works fine, so no abortion is required.

You have STILL not proved why you need to shove a steele rod through a VIABLE baby's head, scramble its brains, dismember it inside the mother, then remove it limb by limb from the mother, as is done in late term abortions UNLESS it is for the safety of the mother or some other dire medical emergency. This practice should be outlawed EXCEPT for those medical emergencies. Again, you fail to address that even many countries we consider '3rd world' have outlawed this barbaric practice, yet you and your pro-death crowd rabidly seek to protect its ractice with no limitations or restrictions!

NO ONE should have the right to take a minor tohave an abortion without parental notification, and even THEN it should be the parent who takes the child to get the procedure done!
-- If you didn't notice, the challenge to this practice came before the Supreme Court and was remanded back down to a lower court. Several pro choice groups began claiming victory in this case, but they are mistaken. The existing S.C. did not have the votes to change this practice, and it was sent back down to delay until Alito is on the bench. At that time, this procedure of bypassing the parental guardian by the federal goverment to promote and protect the act of abortion will come to an end!

You can argue all you want about when life begins, etc, but the Scott Peterson trial DID open the door for interpretation that it is MURDER to kill an unborn child. As I said, Peterson was not convicted of taking a mother's right to kill/abort her own baby - he was charged with the murder of an unborn child - 2 Counts of MURDER! You can argue what that means, but you can not argue that this was what he was found guilty of doing!

 

[Stace]

If you go out, have unprotected sex, then are faced with being pregnant - it is NOT a punishment! It IS a consequence of the act of having un[protected sex. YOU are NOT the vicitm! you were stupid, let your hormones get ahead of your brain cells, and got pregnant! Being stupid does not give you the RIGHT to an abortion, used as post sex contraception!

In such a case, the morning after pill works fine, so no abortion is required.

You have STILL not proved why you need to shove a steele rod through a VIABLE baby's head, scramble its brains, dismember it inside the mother, then remove it limb by limb from the mother, as is done in late term abortions UNLESS it is for the safety of the mother or some other dire medical emergency. This practice should be outlawed EXCEPT for those medical emergencies. Again, you fail to address that even many countries we consider '3rd world' have outlawed this barbaric practice, yet you and your pro-death crowd rabidly seek to protect its ractice with no limitations or restrictions!

NO ONE should have the right to take a minor tohave an abortion without parental notification, and even THEN it should be the parent who takes the child to get the procedure done!
-- If you didn't notice, the challenge to this practice came before the Supreme Court and was remanded back down to a lower court. Several pro choice groups began claiming victory in this case, but they are mistaken. The existing S.C. did not have the votes to change this practice, and it was sent back down to delay until Alito is on the bench. At that time, this procedure of bypassing the parental guardian by the federal goverment to promote and protect the act of abortion will come to an end!

You can argue all you want about when life begins, etc, but the Scott Peterson trial DID open the door for interpretation that it is MURDER to kill an unborn child. As I said, Peterson was not convicted of taking a mother's right to kill/abort her own baby - he was charged with the murder of an unborn child - 2 Counts of MURDER! You can argue what that means, but you can not argue that this was what he was found guilty of doing!

Come back without your unsubstantiated name calling and emotional histrionics and perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion.

 

[StacStang89]

If you go out, have unprotected sex, then are faced with being pregnant - it is NOT a punishment! It IS a consequence of the act of having un[protected sex. YOU are NOT the vicitm! you were stupid, let your hormones get ahead of your brain cells, and got pregnant! Being stupid does not give you the RIGHT to an abortion, used as post sex contraception!

Wow, and I am sure that this stupid, non-victim, that puts hormones ahead of brain cells, would make an excellent parent. Maybe she could sing her child a song like, "I was forced to have you, because abortion was made illegal, your mother is really stupid, you are my lovable little consequence."

 

[easyt65]

Oh you poor victim! Why not just let her have the baby, then slap that metal rod in her hand and let her drive it into the baby's head AFTER she's had it. Then, she wouldn't have to have the VIABLE fetus/baby dismembered and dragged out of her piece by piece! In your scenario, how about giving the mother another option other than murder - how about giving the baby up for adoption? There are thousands of people who want babies/kids but can't have them; meanwhile the pro-abortion crowd thinks abortion is the only option. I guess that is because having the child and giving it up for adoption is too much of an inconvenience to the mother who didn't give a thought to what would happen after she threw her legs up in the air, especially when that steele rod to the baby's head is so much faster!

God forbid that we actually demand that people be responsible, think before they act, and actually be held accountble for their choices they make. No, we have to make them/treat them like victims who this 'poor unfortunate event' miraculously was forced upon them!

We make people take driver's tests to prove they are responsible enough to handle a car and can drive without killing anyone then hold them accountable for their actions if they go on a joy ride and end up killing someone. You demand though that anyone should have free liscence to go out and have a moronic 'joy ride' with no thought about what they're doing until they end up pregnant. Then instead of holding them accountable, give them more than 1 - YOUR - option, we tell them to go and kill the baby.

As I said, the morning after pill is not an abortion because nothing has started to form yet - there is no viable fetus/baby. That would eliminate much of the debate about abortions, but NO - the pro-death crownd wants mothers to have the right to slaughter a baby that could survive outside the womb simply because she's changed her mind and the thought of actually having to take care of it is too 'heavy'. Late term abortions are like giving a kid the keys to a car, letting them go for that joy ride - they hit another car. The driver of the other car is unconscious behind the wheel of their car. Instead of holding the kid responsible, we hand him a metal rod and tell him to go kill the other driver - to take a life - because all of a sudden this is too much for them to deal with, they don't want to deal with the choices they have made. All they have to do is take that life, and its a 'Do-over'!

 

[Stace]

Oh you poor victim! Why not just let her have the baby, then slap that metal rod in her hand and let her drive it into the baby's head AFTER she's had it. Then, she wouldn't have to have the VIABLE fetus/baby dismembered and dragged out of her piece by piece!

First of all, fetuses are not viable until at least 21 weeks according to most medical experts, so what's your take on abortion before that?

Secondly, you really need to do your research on what the abortion procedure involves.

In your scenario, how about giving the mother another option other than murder - how about giving the baby up for adoption?

First of all, abortion is not murder. Murder is illegal; abortion is not. Obviously, there's a reason that a distinction is made.

Secondly, why should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if she's not going to keep the resulting child?

There are thousands of people who want babies/kids but can't have them; meanwhile the pro-abortion crowd thinks abortion is the only option.

There are also thousands of children already sitting in orphanages. Abortion is not the ONLY option, but then again, I really don't know anyone that's "pro abortion" either, so I couldn't tell you how they think.

I guess that is because having the child and giving it up for adoption is too much of an inconvenience to the mother who didn't give a thought to what would happen after she threw her legs up in the air, especially when that steele rod to the baby's head is so much faster!

Why is everything the woman's fault to you? Did you have a bad relationship with your mother or something? It takes two for a pregnancy to happen.

God forbid that we actually demand that people be responsible, think before they act, and actually be held accountble for their choices they make. No, we have to make them/treat them like victims who this 'poor unfortunate event' miraculously was forced upon them!

Yeah, God forbid we do something to make the man responsible for his actions, too.

We make people take driver's tests to prove they are responsible enough to handle a car and can drive without killing anyone then hold them accountable for their actions if they go on a joy ride and end up killing someone. You demand though that anyone should have free liscence to o out and have a moronic 'joy ride' with no thought about what they're doing until they end up pregnant. Then instead of holding them accountable, we tell them to go and kill the baby.

Wow, comparing pregnancy and abortion to driving a car.....that has got to be one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen.

As I said, the morning after pill is not an abortion because nothing has started to form yet - there is no viable fetus/baby.

Yes, and it's not viable until about 21 weeks.

That would eliminate much of the debate about abortions, but NO - the pro-death crownd want mothers to have the right to slaughter a baby that could survive outside the womb simply because she's changed her mind and the thought of actually having to take care of it is too 'heavy'.

Pro death crowd? Never heard of them, either. As for the rest of that......wow. Just.....wow. First, cut out the emotional appeal. Then, cut out your lack of knowledge on reasons why women have abortions, and.....I'm left with nothing worth responding to.

Late term abortions are like giving a kid the keys to a car, letting them go fir that joy ride - they hit another car. The driver of the other car is unconscious behind the wheel of their car. Instead of holding the kid responsible, we hand him a metal rod and tell him to go kill the other driver - to take a life - because all of a sudden this is too much for them to deal with, they don't want to deal with the choices they have made. All they have to do is take that life, and its a 'Do-over'!

And there you go again with the silly analogy......

Well, let me ask you this, since I ask it to everyone else: How does some random woman having an abortion affect your life? I mean, you don't know her, you don't even know she's pregnant, so how is it affecting you at all?

 

[hipster_19]

There is a slight difference between a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy and someone killing the woman and her unborn child! A woman has a choice as to whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, and that should be her choice and hers alone! Now, I understand that there are some woman that take advantage of the fact that abortions are legal by having an abortion out of convenience. But, no matter what, you're always going to have people that manipulate the system, whether it be abortions or welfare or whatever. The point is, a woman should be able to choose what she is allowed to do with her body, and no one else!
If abortions were made illegal, women would still find ways to get them. The fact that they are legal allows woman to go to a safe doctors' office and have the procedure done in a safe and sterile manner. If it is made illegal, women would be having them in alleyways, in very unsanitary conditions, which would then put the woman's life and health in danger.
My whole point is that the only person who should be deciding whether or not a woman can have an abortion is the woman herself. When governments can start dictacting what women can do with their bodies and what they can't, where will it end? Banishing same sex marriages?.........oh, wait!

 

[Stace]

There is a slight difference between a woman deciding to terminate a pregnancy and someone killing the woman and her unborn child! A woman has a choice as to whether or not to terminate her pregnancy, and that should be her choice and hers alone! Now, I understand that there are some woman that take advantage of the fact that abortions are legal by having an abortion out of convenience. But, no matter what, you're always going to have people that manipulate the system, whether it be abortions or welfare or whatever. The point is, a woman should be able to choose what she is allowed to do with her body, and no one else!
If abortions were made illegal, women would still find ways to get them. The fact that they are legal allows woman to go to a safe doctors' office and have the procedure done in a safe and sterile manner. If it is made illegal, women would be having them in alleyways, in very unsanitary conditions, which would then put the woman's life and health in danger.
My whole point is that the only person who should be deciding whether or not a woman can have an abortion is the woman herself. When governments can start dictacting what women can do with their bodies and what they can't, where will it end? Banishing same sex marriages?.........oh, wait!

Welcome to DP, hipster_19!

A few of us have tried this line of reasoning, but sadly, it doesn't seem to affect those on the other side. They're more concerned with the fetus than the safety of the woman. :shrug:

Nice to have another member on the pro choice side, though! :2wave:

 

[Felicity]

. They're more concerned with the fetus than the safety of the woman.

Now...that's just BALONEY Stace...:roll:

 

[Stace]

Now...that's just BALONEY Stace...:roll:

Really? You guys want abortion to be illegal so badly, just because you're so concerned with saving the life of a fetus. We've stated many times that we'd rather see them legal so that at least the woman can have the procedure done safely, rather than risking her own life in the process, and at best, you all basically shrug your shoulders as if you couldn't care less about her safety.

 

[easyt65]

Regarding late term Abortions:You say MOST doctors have no problem with it; however, once again,you have not addressed the fact that most '3rd world' countries even have outlawed this barbaric procedure. At 8 weeks, a baby has discernable/identifiable features. The size of the fetus when most late term abortions are perfomed are such that the baby must be dismembered and dragged out of the woman's body.

First of all, abortion is not murder. Murder is illegal; abortion is not. Obviously, there's a reason that a distinction is made.
-- Not yet, but we will see what the future holds in light of the Scot Peterson verdict of a DOUBLE homicide.

Secondly, why should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if she's not going to keep the resulting child?.....There are also thousands of children already sitting in orphanages. Abortion is not the ONLY option, but then again, I really don't know anyone that's "pro abortion" either, so I couldn't tell you how they think.
- Why is it so hard for you to accept any responsibility for a woman's actions? That's like saying if your dog has puppies, why shouldn't you be able to just put it in a sack and throw it in the river if you don't want to keep it? If you do, its not hurting anyone, and there are pets all over the world sitting in shelter's waiting for adoption, that are eventually put to sleep?! You say the two can't be compared - 1 is illegal and the other is not. hey, if it keeps 'me' from being held accountable and is legal, "I'm" all for it! Mine is that they both should be!

Why is everything the woman's fault to you? Did you have a bad relationship with your mother or something? It takes two for a pregnancy to happen.
- You are absolutely right - it does take 2, but as you keep throwing up in every pro-lifer's face, it is THE WOMAN'S body! It is her right, and responsibility, to ensure she has protected sex if she doesn't want to end up pregnant. if she does, the little dot changes color, go take the morning after pill. Don't wait to kill the life forming inside her later. Again, WHY are you totally against asigning any of the responsibility to a woman?

Yeah, God forbid we do something to make the man responsible for his actions, too.
- Hey, i'm all for it! If you drop trousers and get a girl pregnant, guess what?! You bought into this. Of course, you demand the father get part of the blame/responsibility but you REFUSE to let him have any say so in the decision, if he wants to have the child! youguys are even against notifying the husband of a pregancy before the wife has an abortion. You just want carte blanch to have all the unprotected sex, blame the man, give him no say so, then the right to have an abortionany time, during any stage of the pregnancy, you want!

Wow, comparing pregnancy and abortion to driving a car.....that has got to be one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen.
- The comparison/point to that story was the fact that you are preaching/advocating abortion like a simple choice of 'take the life - kill the baby - and it's an easy "Do-Over"!

Well, let me ask you this, since I ask it to everyone else: How does some random woman having an abortion affect your life? I mean, you don't know her, you don't even know she's pregnant, so how is it affecting you at all?
- Let me put it this way - that is like asking:
--- What do you care if a bunch of Muslims are killing every Christian in Africa, committing genocide in some other country? You don't know them, you didn't even know they were alive, and it isn't affecting your life?!
--- How about hearing on the news that a neighbor down the street was arrested for drowning a sack full of puppies that he didn't want - what business is it of yours? You didn't even know he had puppies, and you certainly weren't going to take them in!

I can see inside your mind, scrambling to make the distinction, how they hav nothing to do with the argument, how they are totally different. Truth is we do things on a daily basis because of our value of what is right and wrong in our society. YOU forcing your beliefs on me, threatening me with the 'right' to take my under-aged daughter out of school to take her to get an abortion without even ever telling me IS MY BUSINESS! Not YOURS, not your Women's lib Organizations, not your Pro-Abortion(Death) organization's, and not the U.S. Federal goverment's Right/Business! Until i sign away my rights as a parent over MY children, you have NO RIGHT to force your values, beliefs, and practices into my family and on my kids! My kids can't bow their heads for a silent prayer in school because it offends you, but YOU can take my 12 year old daughter out of school to get her an abortion without telling me, her parents, anything about it?! How screwed up is that?

 

[hipster_19]

I'm just glad I've found a forum where I don't get battered for my views! But, i just can't understand how that view is not even considered by 'pro-lifers'! How is the safety and protection of a fetus more important than the safety and protection of a woman?! I don't get that! Someone please explain it to me!! My husband was adopted, so I thank his mother (who he doesn't know and has never tried to contact) everyday for the gift that she has given me. But, he and I have both volunteered at local orphanages and adoption centers, where there are children that have not been so lucky. They live the majority of their childhood in an orphanage, until they are old enough to be kicked out on their own and no longer a ward of the state!! In some cases, adoption is a good idea. But, it is not a resolution to an issue!
Another issue that I have a problem with is not allowing birth control to be taught in school. Abstinence is apparently the only way our government is going to deal with the problem. Well, fellas, that doesn't work. Teenagers are going to have sex, whether you want them to or not, no matter how much you shove it down their throat that it is the safest way. But, instead of being smart about the issue and teaching SAFE sex, our government just decides to ignore the problem! Good luck!

 

[easyt65]

Really? You guys want abortion to be illegal so badly, just because you're so concerned with saving the life of a fetus. We've stated many times that we'd rather see them legal so that at least the woman can have the procedure done safely, rather than risking her own life in the process, and at best, you all basically shrug your shoulders as if you couldn't care less about her safety.

That's BS - if you have read any of my posts you will have to admit that I have advocated the practice of abortion in the case of saving the mother's life. I just have a serious problem with Women's lib and Pro-Abortion groups who want abortion, especially the option of Late tern Abortions, available as a post-intercourse contraceptive. I also have a problem with a goverment yeilding to these same groups to allow my under-aged child to be taken out of school to have an abortion without notifying me!

 

[Felicity]

Really? You guys want abortion to be illegal so badly, just because you're so concerned with saving the life of a fetus. We've stated many times that we'd rather see them legal so that at least the woman can have the procedure done safely, rather than risking her own life in the process, and at best, you all basically shrug your shoulders as if you couldn't care less about her safety.

No--I think abortion is beneath the dignity of the woman as well.

And, WOW :shock: are you making sweeping generalizations...I KNOW you don't like it when something is assumed about your position....be consistent and don't do unto others what you don't like done to you.

 

[Stace]

No--I think abortion is beneath the dignity of the woman as well.

And, WOW :shock: are you making sweeping generalizations...I KNOW you don't like it when something is assumed about your position....be consistent and don't do unto others what you don't like done to you.

Well, you know, NOT making generalizations doesn't seem to get anything through to y'all, nor does it seem to keep you from doing it to the pro choice side, so I figured a taste of your own medicine might be good, especially since from what I've seen here, every single pro life person on this forum holds nearly identical views.

 

[Stace]

Regarding late term Abortions:You say MOST doctors have no problem with it; however, once again,you have not addressed the fact that most '3rd world' countries even have outlawed this barbaric procedure. At 8 weeks, a baby has discernable/identifiable features. The size of the fetus when most late term abortions are perfomed are such that the baby must be dismembered and dragged out of the woman's body.

I didn't say anything about that. And no, the fetus is not dismembered, other than collapsing the skull.

First of all, abortion is not murder. Murder is illegal; abortion is not. Obviously, there's a reason that a distinction is made.
-- Not yet, but we will see what the future holds in light of the Scot Peterson verdict of a DOUBLE homicide.

That's one state, and one case. MANY people can see the distinction, however - Peterson was charged with double homicide because he took away Laci's right to choose what happened to her own body and the fetus she was carrying.

Secondly, why should a woman be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if she's not going to keep the resulting child?.....There are also thousands of children already sitting in orphanages. Abortion is not the ONLY option, but then again, I really don't know anyone that's "pro abortion" either, so I couldn't tell you how they think.
- Why is it so hard for you to accept any responsibility for a woman's actions? That's like saying if your dog has puppies, why shouldn't you be able to just put it in a sack and throw it in the river if you don't want to keep it? If you do, its not hurting anyone, and there are pets all over the world sitting in shelter's waiting for adoption, that are eventually put to sleep?! You say the two can't be compared - 1 is illegal and the other is not. hey, if it keeps 'me' from being held accountable and is legal, "I'm" all for it! Mine is that they both should be!

When have I EVER said that the woman isn't responsible as well? But you seem to forget that some things aren't planned - women don't plan to be raped, they don't plan for their birth control to fail, they don't plan to be broke......

And, as far as the puppies go.....well, according to some here, animals are nowhere near as important as humans, so drowning puppies wouldn't be nearly as grievous an offense.

Why is everything the woman's fault to you? Did you have a bad relationship with your mother or something? It takes two for a pregnancy to happen.
- You are absolutely right - it does take 2, but as you keep throwing up in every pro-lifer's face, it is THE WOMAN'S body! It is her right, and responsibility, to ensure she has protected sex if she doesn't want to end up pregnant. if she does, the little dot changes color, go take the morning after pill. Don't wait to kill the life forming inside her later. Again, WHY are you totally against asigning any of the responsibility to a woman?

I keep throwing up? Oh, that's funny. Anyway, it is NOT just the woman's responsibilty to ensure that she is having protected sex. I have NEVER said that a woman should take NO responsibilty for her actions. NEVER. Nor will I ever. You seem to forget that not all women have the morning after pill available to them....and say they WERE using some form of birth control, and it failed. Obviously, she wouldn't know it until she found out she was pregnant.

Until you can learn to look at this from all angles, your point is moot.

Yeah, God forbid we do something to make the man responsible for his actions, too.
- Hey, i'm all for it! If you drop trousers and get a girl pregnant, guess what?! You bought into this. Of course, you demand the father get part of the blame/responsibility but you REFUSE to let him have any say so in the decision, if he wants to have the child! youguys are even against notifying the husband of a pregancy before the wife has an abortion. You just want carte blanch to have all the unprotected sex, blame the man, give him no say so, then the right to have an abortionany time, during any stage of the pregnancy, you want!

Why doesn't the man get very much say in what happens? Because HE'S not the one that has to endure nine months of pregnancy!

And your little blanket statement there? I really think you need to go back and reread posts in every single thread dealing with abortion. I think you'll find quite a different view from what you hold.

Wow, comparing pregnancy and abortion to driving a car.....that has got to be one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen.
- The comparison/point to that story was the fact that you are preaching/advocating abortion like a simple choice of 'take the life - kill the baby - and it's an easy "Do-Over"!

Not really, but nice try.

Well, let me ask you this, since I ask it to everyone else: How does some random woman having an abortion affect your life? I mean, you don't know her, you don't even know she's pregnant, so how is it affecting you at all?
- Let me put it this way - that is like asking:
--- What do you care if a bunch of Muslims are killing every Christian in Africa, committing genocide in some other country? You don't know them, you didn't even know they were alive, and it isn't affecting your life?!
--- How about hearing on the news that a neighbor down the street was arrested for drowning a sack full of puppies that he didn't want - what business is it of yours? You didn't even know he had puppies, and you certainly weren't going to take them in!

You know what? To be quite honest, sad as it may be, I DON'T care. I'm not the baby sitter of the world, it is not my responsibility to hold their hands. If my neighbor wants to drown some puppies, that's on his conscience. It may be horrifying, it may be sad, but people do need to learn to take responsibility for their own actions, rather than always expecting the government to step in.

I can see inside your mind, scrambling to make the distinction, how they hav nothing to do with the argument, how they are totally different. Truth is we do things on a daily basis because of our value of what is right and wrong in our society. YOU forcing your beliefs on me, threatening me with the 'right' to take my under-aged daughter out of school to take her to get an abortion without even ever telling me IS MY BUSINESS! Not YOURS, not your Women's lib Organizations, not your Pro-Abortion(Death) organization's, and not the U.S. Federal goverment's Right/Business! Until i sign away my rights as a parent over MY children, you have NO RIGHT to force your values, beliefs, and practices into my family and on my kids! My kids can't bow their heads for a silent prayer in school because it offends you, but YOU can take my 12 year old daughter out of school to get her an abortion without telling me, her parents, anything about it?! How screwed up is that?

You can see inside my mind? I hardly think so. Different people have different moral codes. I am not forcing my beliefs on anyone; it is the people that call themselves pro life that are trying to force their views on every woman in this country. I am all for parental notifications regarding abortion; If you'd bothered to read any of these other threads, you'd know that. You'd also know that I personally only approve of abortion in certain cases, but I also recognize that it is not my body, and not my choice, and therefore, I can't tell some other woman what to do in regards to this.