How government ruined the US healthcare market. Part 1

[aociswundumho]

"Everything government touches turns to shit." -- ancient proverb

The current US healthcare system is an extremely expensive mess. Not because of capitalism or the profit motive, but because of government regulation. The US healthcare industry is chock full of labor cartels, special interest groups, and monopolies, which financially ass-rape sick and dying Americans. The political left focuses on insurance companies, when the real problem is with the providers being in bed with the state. In this series of posts, I am going to document why healthcare is so expensive in the US. Note also for you progressive "universal healthcare" types, no single payer system can work with these prices.

Part 1 Ambulance monopolies

The rip off begins with your ride to the price-gouging hospital. Companies which provide emergency services lobby for EMS monopolies, and they are everywhere:

County continues '21-year monopoly' for private ambulance providers

This is the second time that Palm Beach County declined to add a third private ambulance provider, despite recommendations by the county’s Emergency Medical Services Advisory Council.

www.palmbeachpost.com

City’s ambulance monopoly illegal, lawsuit contends

HUNTINGTON BEACH – An ambulance company has filed a federal lawsuit against Huntington Beach, alleging that the city maintains an “illegal monopoly” over emergency services. In a …

www.ocregister.com

State rule threatens local ambulance monopoly

Ambulance companies in Kern County are preparing to battle a proposed state guideline "clarification" that threatens their control over swaths of business turf they own exclusively under county rules.

www.bakersfield.com

Ambulance company sues ETMC EMS, city of Tyler, Smith County for allegedly creating monopoly

www.cbs19.tv

Good luck looking to the courts to end the practice:

Federal judge upholds city ambulance monopoly

Richmond has won its legal fight to maintain a monopoly over providing emergency and non-emergency ambulance service after Richmond City Council forced Mayor Levar M. Stoney’s administration to mount a vigorous defense.

richmondfreepress.com

There are even defacto monopolies for just transferring patients in non-emergency situations:

While Truesdell can take customers into Kentucky, he cannot pick them back up. Under Kentucky law, ambulance providers must obtain a state-issued certificate of need to transport clients around and out of the state. A certificate of need requires would-be ambulance companies to convince state regulators there is a “need” for their service. But demonstrating “need” is nearly impossible. Usually, an entrepreneur demonstrates it’s needed by throwing open their doors and allowing the market to decide. As you’d expect, existing ambulance companies weren’t happy to see Truesdell growing his business on their turf.

Kentucky requires entrepreneurs to prove “by a preponderance of the evidence” in advance of operating that the market will sustain them.

Worse, part of demonstrating “need” requires proving that you won’t take away business from existing ambulance providers. Those incumbent companies may also protest the application and show up at a hearing to offer evidence that the new company isn’t “necessary.” Because certificate of need laws essentially give existing businesses the power to exclude new competition, they are sometimes described as a “competitor’s veto.”

This Entrepreneur Is Suing for the Right to Transport Hospital Patients Across State Lines | Mollie Williams

When Phillip Truesdell spotted an ambulance with a “For Sale” sign sitting on the side of the road, he saw an opportunity—and turned the single ambulance into a fleet that completes 1,500 trips a year. Existing ambulance companies weren’t happy and used an obscure law to deny his work...

fee.org

Without market competition, these companies can charge whatever they want:

Unsuspecting, I ripped it open only to instantly feel my stomach knot up and my pulse shoot through the roof. It said I owed them $3,532 for our daughter’s 20-minute ride to the hospital. What?!

The Cost Of Calling An Ambulance And The Nightmare That Ensued

There is nothing scarier than being in a situation where you have to call 911 in fear of losing someone's life. I've dialed those digits two times in my life. Both times I was scared sh-tless. Little did I know that the second call would lead me to a 10+ month-long surprise ambulance bill...

www.financialsamurai.com

One patient got a $3,660 bill for a 4-mile ride. Another was charged $8,460 for a trip from one hospital that could not handle his case to another that could. Still another found herself marooned at an out-of-network hospital, where she’d been taken by ambulance without her consent.

Taken for a ride? Ambulances stick patients with surprise bills

Public outrage has erupted over surprise ambulance medical bills prompting 21 states to pass laws protecting consumers in some situations.

www.nbcnews.com

The school nurse checked Brasfield’s pulse, found it too fast to count and called 911 for an ambulance. Soon after the May 2018 incident, Brasfield, now 39, got a $1,206 bill for the 4-mile ambulance ride across the northwestern Ohio city of Findlay – more than $300 a mile.

'Surprise' bills from ambulances deal a costly blow. Patients need more protection, researchers say.

The COVID-19 pandemic has prompted temporary changes that could help some patients, but it's not enough, some researchers and patient advocates say.

www.usatoday.com

This disastrous situation is caused entirely by government intervention and regulation.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

The Government sure didnt "ruin" my FREE Socialist BidenCare™ plan AOC!

Saw the dermatologist last week...ooohhh basal cell carcinoma ka-BOOOM!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!!

Just went to the therapist today.....KA-BOOOOM!!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!
Gonna be going back Monday, apparently they think theres some work to do there heh heh heh...ka-BOOM!!! NO CHARGE!!!

The rest of braindead America can INSIST on their crappy and expensive Corporate Run Healthcare....but as for me, Socialist Healthcare is the best I ever got!!!!
And I can take that...to the BANK!!!!

 

[Ginger Ale]

The Republicans did **** this up, royally. Not much you can do with the party of no.
The Democrats did as well, they should put in as many progressives as they could and followed an established countries trial and errors but no, they want to play fair with other politicians. Which yes, is a joke.

Simply, the best, most cost effective healthcare would be non profit, government regulation against price gouging.

Government invested scientists, and researchers.

The public would then have the benefit Sally and her roommates do willingly to buy toilet paper by pooling their money together to cut costs and by dividing that cost by population.

Bingo, paid healthcare we could all afford.
But nope.

We did **** it all up, and now it's an unregulated, price gouging, uneven bullshit of a healthcare that is so confusing, and debated we'll never have anything good come out of it. The can just pay for it, the middle class can't afford it, and the poor get it handed to them if they stand in line long enough to be seen by the humiliation judge who deems them losers enough to collect a check, but not too many before they have to do it all again. No wonder we hate each other in America.

I guess America isn't the greatest at healthcare. As a matter of fact we're a laughing stock.

 

[HIP56948]

The Government sure didnt "ruin" my FREE Socialist BidenCare™ plan AOC!

Saw the dermatologist last week...ooohhh basal cell carcinoma ka-BOOOM!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!!

Just went to the therapist today.....KA-BOOOOM!!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!
Gonna be going back Monday, apparently they think theres some work to do there heh heh heh...ka-BOOM!!! NO CHARGE!!!

The rest of braindead America can INSIST on their crappy and expensive Corporate Run Healthcare....but as for me, Socialist Healthcare is the best I ever got!!!!
And I can take that...to the BANK!!!!

View attachment 67383083

When I had a small cancerous growth (4 mm) removed from one of my kidneys, a few years ago, the evil Australian Health Care System
had the audacity to charge me something like 10 dollars for the operation, 4 days in the hospital, MRI scans, and other stuff like drugs.
I'm still paying for it...oh me. Worse...I still pay like 57 dollars a month for their complete health services.

 

[Mach]

"Everything government touches turns to shit." -- ancient proverb
This disastrous situation is caused entirely by government intervention and regulation.

Libertarian claptrap.

Government is just a tool. We can use government to solve some problems and regulate some industries, we can use private, and we do a mix of both.
And for every failure of a government enacted law or regulation, there are like 10x more to be found in the private sector just given the sheer size of the private sector.

The better you make your government at doing its job, the better everyone's life will be. Throwing your hands up and claiming it can't do anything, is libertarian nonsense. They heard something simple and liked the sound of it, and created a whole mythology around it (libertarian)
Government must be in place to help check the power of the private sector, else it would run wild. Similar with government, if its not checked, it too will run wild. That's the nature of humanity. That's why both, keeping each other in check in various ways, sharing power, etc., can lead to good things.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

When I had a small cancerous growth (4 mm) removed from one of my kidneys, a few years ago, the evil Australian Health Care System
had the audacity to charge me something like 10 dollars for the operation, 4 days in the hospital, MRI scans, and other stuff like drugs.
I'm still paying for it...oh me. Worse...I still pay like 57 dollars a month for their complete health services.

Gummint T Y R A N N Y ! ! !

 

[HIP56948]

The Republicans did **** this up, royally. Not much you can do with the party of no.
The Democrats did as well, they should put in as many progressives as they could and followed an established countries trial and errors but no, they want to play fair with other politicians. Which yes, is a joke.

Simply, the best, most cost effective healthcare would be non profit, government regulation against price gouging.

Government invested scientists, and researchers.

The public would then have the benefit Sally and her roommates do willingly to buy toilet paper by pooling their money together to cut costs and by dividing that cost by population.

Bingo, paid healthcare we could all afford.
But nope.

We did **** it all up, and now it's an unregulated, price gouging, uneven bullshit of a healthcare that is so confusing, and debated we'll never have anything good come out of it. The can just pay for it, the middle class can't afford it, and the poor get it handed to them if they stand in line long enough to be seen by the humiliation judge who deems them losers enough to collect a check, but not too many before they have to do it all again. No wonder we hate each other in America.

I guess America isn't the greatest at healthcare. As a matter of fact we're a laughing stock.

Rankings in World Health Care>
.

1. South Korea
2. Taiwan
3. Denmark
4. Austria
5. Japan
6. Australia
7. France
8. Spain
9. Belgium
10. United Kingdom

Gee..where's the USA? ...much further down the list.

 

[The Mark]

"Everything government touches turns to shit." -- ancient proverb

The current US healthcare system is an extremely expensive mess. Not because of capitalism or the profit motive, but because of government regulation. The US healthcare industry is chock full of labor cartels, special interest groups, and monopolies, which financially ass-rape sick and dying Americans. The political left focuses on insurance companies, when the real problem is with the providers being in bed with the state. In this series of posts, I am going to document why healthcare is so expensive in the US. Note also for you progressive "universal healthcare" types, no single payer system can work with these prices.

Part 1 Ambulance monopolies

The rip off begins with your ride to the price-gouging hospital. Companies which provide emergency services lobby for EMS monopolies, and they are everywhere:

County continues '21-year monopoly' for private ambulance providers

This is the second time that Palm Beach County declined to add a third private ambulance provider, despite recommendations by the county’s Emergency Medical Services Advisory Council.

www.palmbeachpost.com

City’s ambulance monopoly illegal, lawsuit contends

HUNTINGTON BEACH – An ambulance company has filed a federal lawsuit against Huntington Beach, alleging that the city maintains an “illegal monopoly” over emergency services. In a …

www.ocregister.com

State rule threatens local ambulance monopoly

Ambulance companies in Kern County are preparing to battle a proposed state guideline "clarification" that threatens their control over swaths of business turf they own exclusively under county rules.

www.bakersfield.com

Ambulance company sues ETMC EMS, city of Tyler, Smith County for allegedly creating monopoly

www.cbs19.tv

Good luck looking to the courts to end the practice:

Federal judge upholds city ambulance monopoly

Richmond has won its legal fight to maintain a monopoly over providing emergency and non-emergency ambulance service after Richmond City Council forced Mayor Levar M. Stoney’s administration to mount a vigorous defense.

richmondfreepress.com

There are even defacto monopolies for just transferring patients in non-emergency situations:



Without market competition, these companies can charge whatever they want:







This disastrous situation is caused entirely by government intervention and regulation.

I think the belief that everything the government does will fail eventually is a long-term lie that's imbedded in our culture.
It isn't a sure thing by any means.

 

[bongsaway]

The Government sure didnt "ruin" my FREE Socialist BidenCare™ plan AOC!

Saw the dermatologist last week...ooohhh basal cell carcinoma ka-BOOOM!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!!

Just went to the therapist today.....KA-BOOOOM!!!!! NO CHARGE!!!!!
Gonna be going back Monday, apparently they think theres some work to do there heh heh heh...ka-BOOM!!! NO CHARGE!!!

The rest of braindead America can INSIST on their crappy and expensive Corporate Run Healthcare....but as for me, Socialist Healthcare is the best I ever got!!!!
And I can take that...to the BANK!!!!

View attachment 67383083

Now that I'm old enough to have medicare, between it and my supplemental insurance, I had blood work done today, no charge, have a nice day, see ya' next time. Best health care I've ever had. All americans should have it, I'm sure we can figure out a way to pay if we really wanted.

 

[bongsaway]

When I had a small cancerous growth (4 mm) removed from one of my kidneys, a few years ago, the evil Australian Health Care System
had the audacity to charge me something like 10 dollars for the operation, 4 days in the hospital, MRI scans, and other stuff like drugs.
I'm still paying for it...oh me. Worse...I still pay like 57 dollars a month for their complete health services.

The nerve, adding insult to injury.

 

[bongsaway]

Libertarian claptrap.

Government is just a tool. We can use government to solve some problems and regulate some industries, we can use private, and we do a mix of both.
And for every failure of a government enacted law or regulation, there are like 10x more to be found in the private sector just given the sheer size of the private sector.

The better you make your government at doing its job, the better everyone's life will be. Throwing your hands up and claiming it can't do anything, is libertarian nonsense. They heard something simple and liked the sound of it, and created a whole mythology around it (libertarian)
Government must be in place to help check the power of the private sector, else it would run wild. Similar with government, if its not checked, it too will run wild. That's the nature of humanity. That's why both, keeping each other in check in various ways, sharing power, etc., can lead to good things.

Well said.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

and the poor get it handed to them if they stand in line long enough to be seen by the humiliation judge who deems them losers enough to collect a check

I didnt go through any of that, and am not "poor" although I did show a very low income on my 2020 & 2021 taxes because of COVID.

I went to the marketplace to buy a plan, filled out the appropriate form including income for that year, and ka - BOOM!!!! Was notified within just a day or two that I was now FULLY COVERED and there would be NO CHARGE.

I didnt have to go through any needs testing other than that, didnt ask how many vehicles I own or how much property I own, there was none of that. Never saw a single person face to face, this was all online in just a few minutes. My Socialist BidenCare™ R A W K S ! ! !

Thank you Mister President....SIR!!!!

 

[bongsaway]

Rankings in World Health Care>
.

1. South Korea
2. Taiwan
3. Denmark
4. Austria
5. Japan
6. Australia
7. France
8. Spain
9. Belgium
10. United Kingdom

Gee..where's the USA? ...much further down the list.

America is THE greatest ever at everything, no matter what the facts say.

 

[Lutherf]

Now that I'm old enough to have medicare, between it and my supplemental insurance, I had blood work done today, no charge, have a nice day, see ya' next time. Best health care I've ever had. All americans should have it, I'm sure we can figure out a way to pay if we really wanted.

Well, in the grand scheme of things you DID pay for it. It's just that you paid for it out of every paycheck for your entire working life and now you're getting the benefit.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I think the belief that everything the government does will fail eventually is a long-term lie that's imbedded in our culture.

Its beaten into most peoples skulls by 24/7/365 Corporate Media Programming, teaches folks that "Government" (the people) regulating something is evil and we should step aside so that multinational corporations can just have free reign as they see fit.
Screw that. I dont play that game.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Rankings in World Health Care>
.

1. South Korea
2. Taiwan
3. Denmark
4. Austria
5. Japan
6. Australia
7. France
8. Spain
9. Belgium
10. United Kingdom

Gee..where's the USA? ...much further down the list.

That list is just Librull Lies?

 

[bongsaway]

I think the belief that everything the government does will fail eventually is a long-term lie that's imbedded in our culture.
It isn't a sure thing by any means.

Hell the gop leadership going back to reagan tells them the government is the problem because it's evil while they're running to become a part of that evil. Reagan didn't change a damn thing, he had his scandals and was just as bad as the folks he said were evil.

They smile in your face...

 

[bongsaway]

Well, in the grand scheme of things you DID pay for it. It's just that you paid for it out of every paycheck for your entire working life and now you're getting the benefit.

Of course, I forgot, it's owed to me, I worked for it. So typical.

 

[The Mark]

Its beaten into most peoples skulls by 24/7/365 Corporate Media Programming, teaches folks that "Government" (the people) regulating something is evil and we should step aside so that multinational corporations can just have free reign as they see fit.
Screw that. I dont play that game.

IMO government programs might have faults, but I firmly believe that there are certain things we shouldn't have for-profit corporations running.

Like prisons.

And possibly hospitals, although I'm less sure about that one.


Basically, the profit motive is too strong and will eventually overwhelm any good intent or the like. To the extent that causing harm to humans will be a perfectly acceptable option so long as profits increase.
Maybe someone can design a corporation where that isn't the case, but if there's more profit to be made with some harm accepted, someone will make a corporation that does and beat them in the market.

Edit: Even if we make and enforce regulations that disincentivize harm and incentivize avoiding it, history shows that the influence on politicians will erode those protections over time unless they are maintained.
And I just don't think we can risk it on certain things.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Now that I'm old enough to have medicare, between it and my supplemental insurance, I had blood work done today, no charge, have a nice day, see ya' next time. Best health care I've ever had. All americans should have it, I'm sure we can figure out a way to pay if we really wanted.

Hmm… the way we pay for Medicare is with everyone paying a 2.9% payroll tax. That allows those who make it to age 65 to pay about $2K/year in Medicare premiums and opt for additional (private) supplemental coverage (as you did). Of course, that only works because folks must pay the added taxes for decades before they (if they live that long) are eligible to get Medicare coverage.

 

[BirdinHand]

“Healthcare” is one of those areas where I don’t know HOW to even imagine fixing it.

I do think a good first step would be clarity in pricing/billing/charges for medical care and clarity around health insurance coverage/not-covered.

A night at hospital A costs $X for a semi-private room.

An IV of standard “fluids” costs Y

Good luck figuring all that out looking at any medical bills.

Then you get into nonsense of an anesthesiologist that a patient had no choice about being considered “out of network” and billing separately? Or a doctor billing separately and in addition to a hospital.

Sifting through medical bills and trying to figure out what is covered, what wasn’t covered, why something wasn’t covered, etc is not something most Americans understand nor have time for.

 

[Grand Mal]

"Everything government touches turns to shit." -- ancient proverb

The current US healthcare system is an extremely expensive mess. Not because of capitalism or the profit motive, but because of government regulation. The US healthcare industry is chock full of labor cartels, special interest groups, and monopolies, which financially ass-rape sick and dying Americans. The political left focuses on insurance companies, when the real problem is with the providers being in bed with the state. In this series of posts, I am going to document why healthcare is so expensive in the US. Note also for you progressive "universal healthcare" types, no single payer system can work with these prices.

Part 1 Ambulance monopolies

The rip off begins with your ride to the price-gouging hospital. Companies which provide emergency services lobby for EMS monopolies, and they are everywhere:

County continues '21-year monopoly' for private ambulance providers

This is the second time that Palm Beach County declined to add a third private ambulance provider, despite recommendations by the county’s Emergency Medical Services Advisory Council.

www.palmbeachpost.com

City’s ambulance monopoly illegal, lawsuit contends

HUNTINGTON BEACH – An ambulance company has filed a federal lawsuit against Huntington Beach, alleging that the city maintains an “illegal monopoly” over emergency services. In a …

www.ocregister.com

State rule threatens local ambulance monopoly

Ambulance companies in Kern County are preparing to battle a proposed state guideline "clarification" that threatens their control over swaths of business turf they own exclusively under county rules.

www.bakersfield.com

Ambulance company sues ETMC EMS, city of Tyler, Smith County for allegedly creating monopoly

www.cbs19.tv

Good luck looking to the courts to end the practice:

Federal judge upholds city ambulance monopoly

Richmond has won its legal fight to maintain a monopoly over providing emergency and non-emergency ambulance service after Richmond City Council forced Mayor Levar M. Stoney’s administration to mount a vigorous defense.

richmondfreepress.com

There are even defacto monopolies for just transferring patients in non-emergency situations:



Without market competition, these companies can charge whatever they want:







This disastrous situation is caused entirely by government intervention and regulation.

You don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's umpteen government health schemes around the world, just pick one that works, one that does it the way you want it done, and copy it.
Why can't America do something that the whole rest of the developed western world does? Is it too complicated for you or have really high profit interests convinced you that it can't be done?

 

[Grand Mal]

“Healthcare” is one of those areas where I don’t know HOW to even imagine fixing it.

I do think a good first step would be clarity in pricing/billing/charges for medical care and clarity around health insurance coverage/not-covered.

A night at hospital A costs $X for a semi-private room.

An IV of standard “fluids” costs Y

Good luck figuring all that out looking at any medical bills.

Then you get into nonsense of an anesthesiologist that a patient had no choice about being considered “out of network” and billing separately? Or a doctor billing separately and in addition to a hospital.

Sifting through medical bills and trying to figure out what is covered, what wasn’t covered, why something wasn’t covered, etc is not something most Americans understand nor have time for.

Here's another thing Americans should be aware of. Malpractice insurance is a huge burden on the system. Neurosurgeons in some places pay $250,000 a year before they pay their staff, their rent or themselves and the hospital they operate in pays more too, which is passed on and contributes to the surgeons fee..
Insurance and lawyers, It's a symbiotic relationship.

 

[BirdinHand]

Here's another thing Americans should be aware of. Malpractice insurance is a huge burden on the system. Neurosurgeons in some places pay $250,000 a year before they pay their staff, their rent or themselves and the hospital they operate in pays more too, which is passed on and contributes to the surgeons fee..
Insurance and lawyers, It's a symbiotic relationship.

Yes!

I have friends that moved to TX because there are lower malpractice rates there.

I suppose when you can’t watch some tv channels without being inundated with what I call “ambulance chasers”…you have your answer there.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Here's another thing Americans should be aware of. Malpractice insurance is a huge burden on the system. Neurosurgeons in some places pay $250,000 a year before they pay their staff, their rent or themselves and the hospital they operate in pays more too, which is passed on and contributes to the surgeons fee..
Insurance and lawyers, It's a symbiotic relationship.

The insurance industry is another thing that should probably be HEAVILY scrutinized.....