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Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
I'm trying real hard to understand it too. My boy's really good HS friend is transitioning now, taking hormones and everything. I've known this kid (now 23) since he was in grade school and never in a million years saw this coming. Haven't seen him in probably 3 years as he went out of state to college and saw a picture of her last week on facebook. I wish her all the best but am really trying to wrap my head around this. Even got the designation on her driver's licence to female.
That's a really sensible post and probably describes many of our feelings on this matter. If you know them, you try to understand. In your case, you said you never saw it coming and that is an awesome remark because some peculiar gender behavior would seem to have manifested before the child got out of his/her teens. What did your son say about his friend's behavior and had he suspected anything?
Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
Well, let's tease apart a couple things here.
This expression is about our relationship to society, and where we fit within it.
The brain gets to call the shots, the body has no ability to claim that it was born with the wrong brain.
Here's what I've been wondering.
Imagine we lived in a society that didn't have such strict delineations on gender. Let's say that instead of having just two words "male" and "female", we had a variety of words to describe gender types. Manly men, men who are feminine, men who are feminine and like dressing as women, etc... Suppose we had a more fluid understanding of gender as a society. Do you suppose that in such a society, there would still be trans people?
What I mean is that I wonder if transexuality is a response to a failure of society to properly account for the natural variety in gender. In other words, if a young boy who is very feminine, identifies with other girls (and other trans boys), likes girly things, and feels very in tune with his feminine side had access to a socially acceptable term for boys who feel that way, would he still develop a desire to physically change his gender? or is his desire to physically change his gender the result of his brain realizing that his experience doesn't match the experience of other boys but rather matches the experience of girls and thus he should be a girl.
.
Obviously, I don't expect you can answer that question with certainty. But I wonder what your thoughts on it are since you seem to be knowledgeable on this issue.
Could you list them and provide the evidence?Yes, because some societies do, in fact, already have that as part of their long-standing culture. They still have trans people.
Not as good as ours with SRS/HRT,
Yes, because some societies do, in fact, already have that as part of their long-standing culture. They still have trans people.[/QUOTE[
Could you list them and provide the evidence?
Thanks.
Standard practice when using acronyms and other abbreviations is to write out the entire long form the first time, add the acronym in parenthesis and then use the acronym from there on out. For example:
Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and then just using FBI from there on out. As it is currently written, your post is impossible to decipher without advanced knowledge of this topic (which I stated up front I do not have). Could you explain, SRS, HRT, GDD, and whatever other technical terms you used?
Heh, sorry about that.
SRS: sexual reassignment surgery. Typically implies genital surgery, though you could lump masectomies in there too.
HRT: hormone replacement therapy.
GDD: gender dysphoric disorder. This is the name given to the conflict of sex between the body and the brain, which produces a variety of mental and neurological disturbances. This is the difference between a person who is simply non-binary (who don't have GDD) and a person who is trans.
Heh, sorry about that.
SRS: sexual reassignment surgery. Typically implies genital surgery, though you could lump masectomies in there too.
HRT: hormone replacement therapy.
GDD: gender dysphoric disorder. This is the name given to the conflict of sex between the body and the brain, which produces a variety of mental and neurological disturbances. This is the difference between a person who is simply non-binary (who don't have GDD) and a person who is trans.
Thanks, what about an answer to the first question?
Your gender is how you feel. Masculine or feminine. It has nothing to do with your sex organs. Apparently it can change.Sincerely wondering about something. Maybe I shouldn't even ask, but it's a constant question in the back of my mind when I'm reading threads about transgenderism. Here it is. How can someone born male know what it even really means to be female and vice versa? How do they know that the thoughts and feelings they're having is just the exact same as a bio male/female? Is it just about the clothes, make up (or lack of it), and maybe not liking what your body has to offer as much as you like the "opposite sex"? I keep hearing that "gender" is much more complex than that. So how do we know with certainty that someone really is "a woman trapped in a man's body" or a "man trapped in a woman's body." How can trans people themselves be so sure?
Here's a big ole' list.
Gender-variant identities worldwide - Nonbinary.org
What's interesting about this, and suggests to me that community support, while extremely helpful, does not completely solve GDD, is that in a couple of these cultures male-to-female trans people chose to be eunuchs. In medical terms, that's basically the most primitive form of SRS.
Why that is might be explained by the fact that HRT is usually the most effective stand-alone treatment for trans people. And, well, removing your gonads does indeed stop most of your production of male hormones, and lessen the male appearance in some ways.
crabcake said:Imagine we lived in a society that didn't have such strict delineations on gender. Let's say that instead of having just two words "male" and "female", we had a variety of words to describe gender types.
SmokeandMirrors said:Yes, because some societies do, in fact, already have that as part of their long-standing culture. They still have trans people.
That link doesn't support your claim. Let's go over it again:
Yet that's not what your link shows. Your link talks about societies with a "third gender", not societies without strict delineations on gender. Furthermore, the link doesn't mention the prevalence of transexuals in those societies at all.
This doesn't support your claim.
There's a number of cultures in there who have trans categories as well, and more than 3 genders -- up to five.
There's no such thing as a society without gender categories, that's true. But, as humans, we like to group things. There's nothing wrong with that, inherently. In reality, most things about humans are just shades of gray, and that might be annoying for the person halfway between blonde and brunette who can't figure out what strength of hair dye to use, but we have to be able to describe things broadly to have conversations.
I think what's more important is that labels are not strictly insisted on, and not taken as a complete summary of the person. They're just expedient things we use to help conversation.
As to prevalence, well, they're prevalent enough in these cultures that they've got their own names. And, some of these cultures are not as technological as we are. They don't keep a census, or have an inpatient that trans people go to.
Also, you didn't ask. And I'm not going to look up stats for 20 different cultures (especially since some of those stats might simply not exist). What's important is that they're recognized, largely accepted, and generally that does help with their mental health prognosis, even if it doesn't seem to completely eliminate GDD.
So, you don't actually have evidence that any cultures exist which have genuinely fluid understandings of gender. Nor do you have evidence that the number of options available doesn't influence the number of transexuals.
Categorization is not the enemy. Using categories to limit who people are allowed to be, is the enemy.
That's the very essence of what I was addressing.
The question was, is transexuality a response to bad categorization? If we lived in a society that didn't force things into such categories, would transexuals exist? or would people who today are considered transexual not feel attracted to making physical changes to their body because they feel they fit a certain category which does not require them to have a vagina (or a penis as the case may be)?
You claimed to have evidence such societies exist and there are still transexuals there. But then you weren't able to provide evidence for such societies nor show that there as many transexuals there as there are in societies with gender binary categories.
Well, I assumed you were asking for societies with more flexible and numerous identities that are accepted. Turns out what you're actually asking for is both impossible and most likely would actually be rather harmful.
Non-binary people have no way of asking their community to respect their identity, if they have no language -- or, categories -- to describe their identity. "Good" categorization is just something that gives us descriptors we can use for general conversation.
Societies with more socially accepted, flexible, and numerous identities, do still have trans people. How many comparatively, I don't know. But they're only 0.6% of Americans, so we're not talking about a huge chunk of people either way.
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