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How do you feel about Libertarian politics?

What do you think of Libertarian philosophy?

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MrFrankZito

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How do you feel about libertarian politics?

I am actually finding myself drifting away from the Democratic Party and toward the Libertarian Party (I'll never go anywhere near the Republicans!). The Libertarians represent my political ideology almost perfectly: cultural liberal, free trader, military isolationist, proponent of personal freedom and personal responsibility, and advocate of minimum government.

I have real problems with the Democrats when they are overly protectionist, for example. Or when they advocate substantial spending on foreign aid. Libertarians argue that US funds should be spent for US needs, rather than sent abroad. Morever, Libertarians argue that the US military should be used to protect/defend the US, rather than sent abroad to start wars and butt its nose into other people's conflicts.

I can't think of a prominent Dem that truly reflects my ideology.

If you would like to learn more about Libertarian philosophy, check out The Libertarian Defender. That's probably a better place to explore than having to dig through an "official" party website with a lot of empty rhetoric!
 

Hornburger

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I like the philosophy, but I see myself as more of a moderate libertarian. I believe in the basic principle of their politics, "Live and let live", personal responsibility, freedom, etc etc; I agree with many of their stances- Lower taxes, isolationism, free trade, gay marriage, etc. (basically fiscally right and socially left). However, I do diverge from them a bit where they promote home-schooling (I'm undecided of the voucher issue), death penalty, abortion, mimimum wage laws, and privating social security (well, get rid of funding to the retired and only provide it to the disabled, and don't make it private). and less government spending.

So on the whole I agree with them...there's just a few issues which I diverge from them. But I still consider myself a Libretarian because my fundamental beliefs are the same as them; I am much more in line with their philosophy than the republican's (tradition is best) or democrat's (help the poor).

The problem is they won't win many elections any time soon...
 
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MrFrankZito

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Where do you stand on this list?? [Cut from the above-cited Libertarian link.]

1. The government should get out of the marriage business and instead issue only civil union licenses. As an element of that, such licenses should be granted to homosexual couples, polygamous groups and incestuous couples, providing that they are all consenting adults.

2. The government should get out of the censorship business, and revoke the FCC's unconstitutional power to declare certain things "indecent" or "obscene." Indeed, not even state/local governments should have such authority. The standards should be very simple: If a real crime of some sort is depicted on the videotape or in the magazine, one may prosecute the crime committed.

3. Free trade policy should be fully embraced, and global free trade alliances sought. Tariffs and protectionism should be considered "dirty words" and never viewed as a viable solution to any problem.

4. Military spending should be drastically cut. The military should only be used for defense, and never for imperialistic purposes. With such a policy, the US would never have gotten involved in Vietnam, the Rwandan genocide, Kosovo, the current Iraq debacle, or the Mid-East peace process.

5. Drastically cut back foreign aid (perhaps to zero), particularly military/political aid. Slowly begin to withdraw from, or play a lesser role in, organizations such as NATO and other permanent military alliances.

6. Remove religion from the public square. No more "Under God" and no more "In God We Trust." No more swearing on Bibles in the government and no more publicly posted Ten Commandments. Religion, much like pornography, for example, must be isolated to the realm of the private.

7. Finally end the War on Drugs. Period. Legalize all drugs for adult sale/use, including substances such as steroids and ephedra.

8. Formally recognize that personal medical decisions are PERSONAL medical decisions. The government has no right to interfere with such things as abortion or assisted suicide.

9. Outlaw capital punishment. Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful. And, one must never forget that innocent people have been executed, and many people have been exonerated while on Death Row awaiting execution.

10. Cut back government spending on health coverage, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's health bills only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal health choices. If one is responsible for one's own medical bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever healthy/unhealthy choices one wishes.

11. Since an educated populace is any country's greatest strength, renew federal efforts to make education more accessible, more affordable and of better quality. School vouchers will NEVER be a part of the solution; vouchers are part of the problem. After all, apparently, private schools have a right to teach fiction as truth (Intelligent Design).

12. Reduce our use of coal and oil. Work toward creating better means of producing energy. Aim for a time when the US will have no use for oil whatsoever. Then, we can truly free ourselves from Middle Eastern policy.

13. Crack down on illegal immigration. Deport illegals, irrespective of if they've been here for 2 days or 2 decades. Do not reward criminal behavior with amnesty or work-toward-legalization programs. Crack down on companies that hire illegals, and file lawsuits against such companies.

14. Secure the right of law-abiding gun owners to own firearms. Punish the crime: not ownership. While background checks are just common sense, making things illegal to all (criminals and non-criminals) is overly intrusive and unacceptable.

15. "Nanny laws" such as seatbelt laws and helmet laws are totally inappropriate with respect to adults. The government shall enact no law that is "for your own good" or "designed to protect you from yourself."
 

Hornburger

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MrFrankZito said:
Where do you stand on this list?? [Cut from the above-cited Libertarian link.]

1. The government should get out of the marriage business and instead issue only civil union licenses. As an element of that, such licenses should be granted to homosexual couples, polygamous groups and incestuous couples, providing that they are all consenting adults.

2. The government should get out of the censorship business, and revoke the FCC's unconstitutional power to declare certain things "indecent" or "obscene." Indeed, not even state/local governments should have such authority. The standards should be very simple: If a real crime of some sort is depicted on the videotape or in the magazine, one may prosecute the crime committed.

3. Free trade policy should be fully embraced, and global free trade alliances sought. Tariffs and protectionism should be considered "dirty words" and never viewed as a viable solution to any problem.

4. Military spending should be drastically cut. The military should only be used for defense, and never for imperialistic purposes. With such a policy, the US would never have gotten involved in Vietnam, the Rwandan genocide, Kosovo, the current Iraq debacle, or the Mid-East peace process.

5. Drastically cut back foreign aid (perhaps to zero), particularly military/political aid. Slowly begin to withdraw from, or play a lesser role in, organizations such as NATO and other permanent military alliances.

6. Remove religion from the public square. No more "Under God" and no more "In God We Trust." No more swearing on Bibles in the government and no more publicly posted Ten Commandments. Religion, much like pornography, for example, must be isolated to the realm of the private.

7. Finally end the War on Drugs. Period. Legalize all drugs for adult sale/use, including substances such as steroids and ephedra.

8. Formally recognize that personal medical decisions are PERSONAL medical decisions. The government has no right to interfere with such things as abortion or assisted suicide.

9. Outlaw capital punishment. Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful. And, one must never forget that innocent people have been executed, and many people have been exonerated while on Death Row awaiting execution.

10. Cut back government spending on health coverage, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's health bills only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal health choices. If one is responsible for one's own medical bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever healthy/unhealthy choices one wishes.

11. Since an educated populace is any country's greatest strength, renew federal efforts to make education more accessible, more affordable and of better quality. School vouchers will NEVER be a part of the solution; vouchers are part of the problem. After all, apparently, private schools have a right to teach fiction as truth (Intelligent Design).

12. Reduce our use of coal and oil. Work toward creating better means of producing energy. Aim for a time when the US will have no use for oil whatsoever. Then, we can truly free ourselves from Middle Eastern policy.

13. Crack down on illegal immigration. Deport illegals, irrespective of if they've been here for 2 days or 2 decades. Do not reward criminal behavior with amnesty or work-toward-legalization programs. Crack down on companies that hire illegals, and file lawsuits against such companies.

14. Secure the right of law-abiding gun owners to own firearms. Punish the crime: not ownership. While background checks are just common sense, making things illegal to all (criminals and non-criminals) is overly intrusive and unacceptable.

15. "Nanny laws" such as seatbelt laws and helmet laws are totally inappropriate with respect to adults. The government shall enact no law that is "for your own good" or "designed to protect you from yourself."
I disagree with numbers 8 and 9, and undecided on 10...how many you think I'd need to agree with to be considered a libretarian?
 

Conflict

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Libertarianism covers a vast and diverse array of political belief. It is a much more open minded belief then the democratic or republican ticket.

In my opinion the gist of the platform has to do with:

Civil Liberty.

Small Government.

Non-Agresssion.

There is no religious bias in the libertarian doctrine. I truly believe that the libertarian party is the party that mostly adheres to the constitution of this nation. It is somewhat of an independent affiliation when dealing with partisan politics. It leaves the option open to agree to disagree... hence the non-aggression aspect which is the magic carpet.
 

MrFrankZito

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Hornburger said:
I disagree with numbers 8 and 9, and undecided on 10...how many you think I'd need to agree with to be considered a libretarian?
Probably about 2/3. Not all Libertarian philosophies are identical; however, I think this is a fairly representative list, albeit slightly left-leaning.
 

Conflict

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MrFrankZito said:
Probably about 2/3. Not all Libertarian philosophies are identical; however, I think this is a fairly representative list, albeit slightly left-leaning.
I agree. The libertarian party was originally a conservative party. As it exists today it is more centrist than anything. In my perception at least.
 

Hornburger

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MrFrankZito said:
Probably about 2/3. Not all Libertarian philosophies are identical; however, I think this is a fairly representative list, albeit slightly left-leaning.
Woohoo, I'm libretarian lol
 
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I agree with all of those, expect for #3 and #10. I think that completely free trade would result in mass outsourcing (how can those in the US compete in the labor market if the supply is suddenly multiplied by a few million while demand stays stable?) and I disagree with #10 because I don't have health care :neutral:
 

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I find libertariansim the most compatible ideology with my hermitic persona. "Leave me alone" would be an excellent phrase to describe it.

I agreed almost completely with all 15 above. Want some good entertainment? Go to a conservative forum and ask the question: Why should Armin Mewes face jail time?

The resulting comments sure kept the mods busy.
 
T

The Real McCoy

MrFrankZito said:
Where do you stand on this list?? [Cut from the above-cited Libertarian link.]

1. The government should get out of the marriage business and instead issue only civil union licenses. As an element of that, such licenses should be granted to homosexual couples, polygamous groups and incestuous couples, providing that they are all consenting adults.

2. The government should get out of the censorship business, and revoke the FCC's unconstitutional power to declare certain things "indecent" or "obscene." Indeed, not even state/local governments should have such authority. The standards should be very simple: If a real crime of some sort is depicted on the videotape or in the magazine, one may prosecute the crime committed.

3. Free trade policy should be fully embraced, and global free trade alliances sought. Tariffs and protectionism should be considered "dirty words" and never viewed as a viable solution to any problem.

4. Military spending should be drastically cut. The military should only be used for defense, and never for imperialistic purposes. With such a policy, the US would never have gotten involved in Vietnam, the Rwandan genocide, Kosovo, the current Iraq debacle, or the Mid-East peace process.

5. Drastically cut back foreign aid (perhaps to zero), particularly military/political aid. Slowly begin to withdraw from, or play a lesser role in, organizations such as NATO and other permanent military alliances.

6. Remove religion from the public square. No more "Under God" and no more "In God We Trust." No more swearing on Bibles in the government and no more publicly posted Ten Commandments. Religion, much like pornography, for example, must be isolated to the realm of the private.

7. Finally end the War on Drugs. Period. Legalize all drugs for adult sale/use, including substances such as steroids and ephedra.

8. Formally recognize that personal medical decisions are PERSONAL medical decisions. The government has no right to interfere with such things as abortion or assisted suicide.

9. Outlaw capital punishment. Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful. And, one must never forget that innocent people have been executed, and many people have been exonerated while on Death Row awaiting execution.

10. Cut back government spending on health coverage, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's health bills only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal health choices. If one is responsible for one's own medical bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever healthy/unhealthy choices one wishes.

11. Since an educated populace is any country's greatest strength, renew federal efforts to make education more accessible, more affordable and of better quality. School vouchers will NEVER be a part of the solution; vouchers are part of the problem. After all, apparently, private schools have a right to teach fiction as truth (Intelligent Design).

12. Reduce our use of coal and oil. Work toward creating better means of producing energy. Aim for a time when the US will have no use for oil whatsoever. Then, we can truly free ourselves from Middle Eastern policy.

13. Crack down on illegal immigration. Deport illegals, irrespective of if they've been here for 2 days or 2 decades. Do not reward criminal behavior with amnesty or work-toward-legalization programs. Crack down on companies that hire illegals, and file lawsuits against such companies.

14. Secure the right of law-abiding gun owners to own firearms. Punish the crime: not ownership. While background checks are just common sense, making things illegal to all (criminals and non-criminals) is overly intrusive and unacceptable.

15. "Nanny laws" such as seatbelt laws and helmet laws are totally inappropriate with respect to adults. The government shall enact no law that is "for your own good" or "designed to protect you from yourself."
I agree with every single one of those except 6... and I only partially disagree with 6. I don't think we should be swearing on Bibles or posting the 10 commandments on public property but I also see nothing wrong with "Under God" in the pledge and "In God We Trust" on our money. Fact is, 94% of Americans believe in God and I don't see it as a violation of the 1st amendment.

Another issue that wasn't on the list was Social Security. Traditional Libertarian dogma would have it abolished but I think Social Security is one basic safety net the government should provide.
 

Bustabush

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Hello,

1. The government should get out of the marriage business and instead issue only civil union licenses. As an element of that, such licenses should be granted to homosexual couples, polygamous groups and incestuous couples, providing that they are all consenting adults.
Agree in part. The gov should get out of the business completey. Only sticking it's nose in when there is a dispute.

2. The government should get out of the censorship business, and revoke the FCC's unconstitutional power to declare certain things "indecent" or "obscene." Indeed, not even state/local governments should have such authority. The standards should be very simple: If a real crime of some sort is depicted on the videotape or in the magazine, one may prosecute the crime committed.
Agree

3. Free trade policy should be fully embraced, and global free trade alliances sought. Tariffs and protectionism should be considered "dirty words" and never viewed as a viable solution to any problem.
Agree

4. Military spending should be drastically cut. The military should only be used for defense, and never for imperialistic purposes. With such a policy, the US would never have gotten involved in Vietnam, the Rwandan genocide, Kosovo, the current Iraq debacle, or the Mid-East peace process.
Disagree in part. Military spending should never be cut. I agree with "never for imperialistc purposes" But you and I diagree on what a "imperialistc purpose" is.

. Drastically cut back foreign aid (perhaps to zero), particularly military/political aid. Slowly begin to withdraw from, or play a lesser role in, organizations such as NATO and other permanent military alliances.
Agree

6. Remove religion from the public square. No more "Under God" and no more "In God We Trust." No more swearing on Bibles in the government and no more publicly posted Ten Commandments. Religion, much like pornography, for example, must be isolated to the realm of the private.
Disagree completely! Pornography should be in the public realm as well! :rofl
But really I disagree. Those things are apart of this Nation's heritage. I am not a follower of Jesus but I know this is true.

7. Finally end the War on Drugs. Period. Legalize all drugs for adult sale/use, including substances such as steroids and ephedra.
Agree

8. Formally recognize that personal medical decisions are PERSONAL medical decisions. The government has no right to interfere with such things as abortion or assisted suicide.
Disagree comletely. I quote, "Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful."

9. Outlaw capital punishment. Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful. And, one must never forget that innocent people have been executed, and many people have been exonerated while on Death Row awaiting execution.
Agree.

10. Cut back government spending on health coverage, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's health bills only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal health choices. If one is responsible for one's own medical bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever healthy/unhealthy choices one wishes.
Agree.

11. Since an educated populace is any country's greatest strength, renew federal efforts to make education more accessible, more affordable and of better quality. School vouchers will NEVER be a part of the solution; vouchers are part of the problem. After all, apparently, private schools have a right to teach fiction as truth (Intelligent Design).
Disagree completely. Cut back government spending on schools, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's school only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal education. If one is responsible for one's own school bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever educated/uneducated choices one wishes. :2wave:

12. Reduce our use of coal and oil. Work toward creating better means of producing energy. Aim for a time when the US will have no use for oil whatsoever. Then, we can truly free ourselves from Middle Eastern policy.
Disagree completely. It is the free market that should make this move not the gov.


13. Crack down on illegal immigration. Deport illegals, irrespective of if they've been here for 2 days or 2 decades. Do not reward criminal behavior with amnesty or work-toward-legalization programs. Crack down on companies that hire illegals, and file lawsuits against such companies.
Agree

14. Secure the right of law-abiding gun owners to own firearms. Punish the crime: not ownership. While background checks are just common sense, making things illegal to all (criminals and non-criminals) is overly intrusive and unacceptable.
Agree

15. "Nanny laws" such as seatbelt laws and helmet laws are totally inappropriate with respect to adults. The government shall enact no law that is "for your own good" or "designed to protect you from yourself."
Agree.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Actually, I reiterate my stance on #6. That's the only one I disagree on.. except the 10 commandments issue... I think that's taking it a little far.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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MrFrankZito said:
1. The government should get out of the marriage business and instead issue only civil union licenses.
No. The government has an obligation to interpret contracts, that includes marriage contracts. Doesn't matter what you call it, the government's role is that of formal registrar.

Registering marriages is not a violation of libertarian principles.

MrFrankZito said:
2. The government should get out of the censorship business, and revoke the FCC's unconstitutional power to declare certain things "indecent" or "obscene."
The government shouldn't be regulating station licenses at all. Broadcast licenses should be instead titles to bandwith and as saleable between individuals and companies as a Chevy Van or beachfront property.

MrFrankZito said:
3. Free trade policy should be fully embraced, and global free trade alliances sought. Tariffs and protectionism should be considered "dirty words" and never viewed as a viable solution to any problem.
If it's truly free trade, why is an alliance necessary?

MrFrankZito said:
4. Military spending should be drastically cut. The military should only be used for defense, and never for imperialistic purposes. With such a policy, the US would never have gotten involved in Vietnam, the Rwandan genocide, Kosovo, the current Iraq debacle, or the Mid-East peace process.
The United States didn't get involved in the Rwandan genocide.

Military spending should be limited to a sensible policy of protection, and that policy cannot be said to automatically exclude pre-emptive notions such as Iraq.

The means to limit US involvement in foreign war is simple. Why not pass a law requiring that the US Congress issue a formal declaration of war before attacking? Why, they can even spend some time debating the merits of the war before issuing the declaration. I don't think anyone's ever thought of that before. I think I'll patent it.

MrFrankZito said:
5. Drastically cut back foreign aid (perhaps to zero), particularly military/political aid.
Not "perhaps to zero", but "all the way to zero". There's no constitutional authority to take money from taxpayers and expend it on objects of Congressional benevolence.

MrFrankZito said:
6. Remove religion from the public square. No more "Under God" and no more "In God We Trust." No more swearing on Bibles in the government and no more publicly posted Ten Commandments. Religion, much like pornography, for example, must be isolated to the realm of the private.
Good enough.

MrFrankZito said:
7. Finally end the War on Drugs. Period. Legalize all drugs for adult sale/use, including substances such as steroids and ephedra.
Works for me.

MrFrankZito said:
8. Formally recognize that personal medical decisions are PERSONAL medical decisions. The government has no right to interfere with such things as abortion or assisted suicide.
Wrongo on the first part. Abortion terminates the life of an individual. You gotta define where that boundary is before you can go down this road.

Also, enough controls should be placed on suicide to protect the helpless the hucksters. I know one old lady sitting on a four million dollar house. She's 97 now, and some of her kids are dying without getting a piece of that action. How unfair. The (can I say "assholes"?) are making her feel guilty for still being alive.

MrFrankZito said:
9. Outlaw capital punishment. Any government that has the power to kill its citizens is too powerful. And, one must never forget that innocent people have been executed, and many people have been exonerated while on Death Row awaiting execution.
People exonerated on death row haven't been executed and are proof that the system works. I'm sure you can name the "innocent executees", so I won't ask. But there is that group of undeniably guilty evil criminals, and there's no substantive argument against flushing them. That's covered on other threads, I merely wish to state disagreement here and move on.

MrFrankZito said:
10. Cut back government spending on health coverage, with the goal of making it zero. The government footing one's health bills only gives the government more justification to interject itself into one's personal health choices. If one is responsible for one's own medical bills, one will have full freedom to make whatever healthy/unhealthy choices one wishes.
Works for me. No constitutional authority for these entitlements and programs.

MrFrankZito said:
11. Since an educated populace is any country's greatest strength, renew federal efforts to make education more accessible, more affordable and of better quality. School vouchers will NEVER be a part of the solution; vouchers are part of the problem. After all, apparently, private schools have a right to teach fiction as truth (Intelligent Design).
No. Eliminate the public schools since the individual shouldn't be obligated to pay for the education of someone else's children.

MrFrankZito said:
12. Reduce our use of coal and oil.
This ISN'T a libertarian issue.

Eliminating laws and regulations controlling personal energy choices IS.

Eliminating laws and regulations controlling corporate energy choices IS.

MrFrankZito said:
13. Crack down on illegal immigration. Deport illegals, irrespective of if they've been here for 2 days or 2 decades. Do not reward criminal behavior with amnesty or work-toward-legalization programs. Crack down on companies that hire illegals, and file lawsuits against such companies.
From a strictly libertarian view point, with certain blinders on, deportation of invaders is totally contrary to the ideals. No person insisting on totally free international trade markets can turn around and argue for controlled labor markets. They're two sides of the same coin.

But expanind the libertarian view a bit, and many things can be done to reduce the problem to maneagable levels. End all welfare, all healthcare, all entitlements to everyone. The US has an enourmous pool of labor as unskilled as anything Mexico can send us, sitting around watching Oprah, collecting welfare, and voting for John Kerry.

Get'em off their rears and back to the strawberry patches.

MrFrankZito said:
14. Secure the right of law-abiding gun owners to own firearms. Punish the crime: not ownership. While background checks are just common sense, making things illegal to all (criminals and non-criminals) is overly intrusive and unacceptable.
The law is secure, it's called the Second Amendment. End the illegal infringement on that law.

MrFrankZito said:
15. "Nanny laws" such as seatbelt laws and helmet laws are totally inappropriate with respect to adults. The government shall enact no law that is "for your own good" or "designed to protect you from yourself."
True enough. YOU don't obey those laws, do you? I don't.
 

MrFrankZito

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Seems like there are quite a lot of people here with distinctly libertarian tendencies. That's nice to see!

Personally, I'm not at all 100% libertarian. For example, I endorse public education. Second, I endorse social security. Third, I endorse the Department of Energy.

I'm more of a left-leaning libertarian, who really focuses on social issues like abortion, gay rights and separation of church & state. To me, economic issues are definitely secondary.
 

Deegan

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Who, what the hell is a "Libertarian"?:idea: :thinking
 
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