How can the right even suggest that they are Christian[W:487]

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

who is the hypocrite now?

Ummm...the people who claim they are Christians...and who claim they are American conservatives at the same time.

I thought I had made that clear.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I did not ignore them. I disagree with them.



Thanks, Owl.

Wouldn't you think you would be able to provide a rationale for why you disagree though? I provided a rationale for the argument I made. Surely those who speak from conviction rather than prejudice can support their argument. Insulting people is not an argument.

And you're welcome.

 

[Thrilla]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Missed it by a mile.

Maybe more.

not at all.. he nailed it perfectly.

you far to set in your ways to be capable of an actual discussion... it's not like you're sitting on the fence waiting for facts to come in ... you decided that conservatives aren't' "real " Christians, and that's that.... you've made yourself quite clear on the matter, as hateful people often do.

and the real irony of all of this is that in order for you to believe conservatives are "real " Christians, they would have to put their personal religion into public policy... something i'm quite certain you would also oppose.

 

[Thrilla]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Ummm...the people who claim they are Christians...and who claim they are American conservatives at the same time.

I thought I had made that clear.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye


perfect.

 

[tosca1]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

At NO POINT have I EVER said that Christians must align with the economic left. EVER. ANYWHERE.

BUT if a person who designates him/herself a Christian aligns with the American conservative agenda...that person is a hypocrite.

Why?

Please explain why that Christian would be a hypocrite?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

not at all.. he nailed it perfectly.

you far to set in your ways to be capable of an actual discussion... it's not like you're sitting on the fence waiting for facts to come in ... you decided that conservatives aren't' "real " Christians, and that's that.... you've made yourself quite clear on the matter, as hateful people often do.

and the real irony of all of this is that in order for you to believe conservatives are "real " Christians, they would have to put their personal religion into public policy... something i'm quite certain you would also oppose.

At NO POINT have I said that they are NOT "real Christians"...nor have I ever said they are not "real conservatives."

I have said the are real hypocrites...and they are.

Anyone who does not see that the conservative agenda is not compatible with the teachings of Jesus...just is refusing to see it.

So that there is no mistake about this: In my opinion...they are real Christians; real American conservatives...and REAL HYPOCRITES.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye


perfect.

Since you seem to think that admonition applies to you because it supposedly was said by GOD, in the form of Jesus...

...why are you doing it?

I have no such obligation. You are obliging me...by sparing yourself from the obligation you have taken on yourself.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Why?

Please explain why that Christian would be a hypocrite?

I've done that several times already, Tosca.

It reduces to...the American conservative agenda is antithetical to the thrust of the teachings of Jesus.

 

[tosca1]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I've done that several times already, Tosca.

It reduces to...the American conservative agenda is antithetical to the thrust of the teachings of Jesus.

What is the Conservative agenda, and how is it antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

What is the Conservative agenda, and how is it antithetical to the teachings of Jesus?

If you want me to recommend some books...I will. But then I will require a book report.

Otherwise...find the books on your own...and read 'em.

 

[tosca1]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Compared with the cost of the useless wars started by conservatives...the cost is not all that bad. And since it goes for helping humanity rise out of poverty...rather than killing as many people as possible...it is a more reasonable cost.

What we have to do is to rise above this cost thing...in a way that still gets the job done.

Ultimately, eliminating poverty is really just about seeing that everyone has the needs of reasonable living.

With the technological advances we have made recently...producing sufficient food, clothing, providing shelter, medical care and such...ought not to be the financial burden it is. At one time, it took almost the entire population working hard to produce all that, but with the new technology...that is now produced with a tiny fraction of the efforts of the population.

The PROBLEM is that the distribution is all screwed up.

The liberals are trying to work on that. The conservatives are doing their best not to advance...to insist that the rich get more and more of the profits generated by that advanced technology.

By not coming up with better methods of distribution, the people doing the screwing...are both political parties. That I will grant. But by far...the conservatives are the group saying, "hooray for me; screw you."

When you say, Conservatives - that's quite a wide brush yo use.

 

[Logicman]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I've done that several times already, Tosca.

It reduces to...the American conservative agenda is antithetical to the thrust of the teachings of Jesus.

Example?

Jesus never taught that people have to filter their givings through a bloated and corrupt government. That's not very efficient.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I am not mischaracterizing anything.

You are indeed. Specifically, you are claiming that conservatism in America is animated by a spirit of I Got Mine, Screw Everyone Else, when this is as false as the notion that liberals are animated by a hatred of the poor.

I am saying that anyone who identifies as a Christian and who also identifies as an American conservative...is a hypocrite. And they are.

This is the mischaracterization of both conservatism and Christianity. If conservatives are violating New Testament principles regarding charity via our social safety net structure, it is because we are too liberal on the matter. We give via tax rates, we give to those who will not work, and we give to young widows. We don't even means test Social Security on a familial basis.

As I have already demonstrated, which you ignored, because it doesn't allow you to make what you regard as a pithy statement.... Which you are making in ignorance.

 

[Logicman]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Liberals are generous...with other people's money.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Liberals are generous...with other people's money.

Funny seems like regressives are also Bushes liars war cost trillions, While Cheney and Bush the baby Killer made many many millions.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

When you say, Conservatives - that's quite a wide brush yo use.

Thank you.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Example?

Jesus never taught that people have to filter their givings through a bloated and corrupt government. That's not very efficient.

Why don't people like you and Tosca wake up, "Logic"man?

Lemme ask you this:

If Jesus were on the scene and asked, "Do you think we should spend more money on social programs designed to help people in need...or should it be spent on war machines to kill people?"...

...what do you suppose he would say?

The mystified expressions shown here about why I think the American conservative agenda is not step in step with the thrust of the teachings of Jesus...are about as disingenuous as anything I have ever encountered.

I get a laugh out of it...truly I do. In fact, I often do it unthinkingly...and Nancy has to ask me, "What the heck are you laughing about?"

But...get with it guys.

Be a Christian.

Or be an American conservative.

Or...be both...and understand why some people are going to call you a HYPOCRITE.

 

[jbander]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

From Post Number 1 on this subject to repeat myself because it is 100% fact "If you want to know exactly what the right wants for this country, it is spelled out completely in Paul Ryans Budgets signed on , I may add, by 100% of the rights congressmen in his original budget. He wants to pull 5 trillion out of the system 2/3 from the old, sick and needy for the noble sake of the deficit but then turns around and puts in massive tax cuts and handouts to big business and the wealthy, then adds massively to the military budget, gee what about the deficit Ryan. 24 states conservative Governors have excluded Syrians refuges from coming to their state . Conservitives are so far from being Christian with their emphases on attacking gays and not a word about support for the poor , in fact they want to take massively from the poor. 5-6 remarks in the bible about gays and taking care of the poor has the largest verbiage in the bible at 300 times. Conservative Christians will be standing at the gates of heaven and Lazarus will be there and he won't let them in. "

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

You are indeed. Specifically, you are claiming that conservatism in America is animated by a spirit of I Got Mine, Screw Everyone Else, when this is as false as the notion that liberals are animated by a hatred of the poor.

I am a hell of a lot closer to the truth about main-stream American conservatism by saying it is motivated by "hooray for me, screw you"...

...than you are by suggesting I am wrong, cp.

I am glad you are offended by my saying that...but it is so. And best you come to grips with it.

(Did you really think I was going to bite on that "liberals animated by a hatred of the poor" earlier???)

This is the mischaracterization of both conservatism and Christianity.

It is a better characterization than you are making.

If conservatives are violating New Testament principles regarding charity via our social safety net structure, it is because we are too liberal on the matter. We give via tax rates, we give to those who will not work, and we give to young widows. We don't even means test Social Security on a familial basis.

Please!!!

As I have already demonstrated, which you ignored, because it doesn't allow you to make what you regard as a pithy statement.... Which you are making in ignorance.

I am not ignorant...and neither are you.

Sorry you have to keep playing in that mud.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

From Post Number 1 on this subject to repeat myself because it is 100% fact "If you want to know exactly what the right wants for this country, it is spelled out completely in Paul Ryans Budgets signed on , I may add, by 100% of the rights congressmen in his original budget. He wants to pull 5 trillion out of the system 2/3 from the old, sick and needy for the noble sake of the deficit but then turns around and puts in massive tax cuts and handouts to big business and the wealthy, then adds massively to the military budget, gee what about the deficit Ryan. 24 states conservative Governors have excluded Syrians refuges from coming to their state . Conservitives are so far from being Christian with their emphases on attacking gays and not a word about support for the poor , in fact they want to take massively from the poor. 5-6 remarks in the bible about gays and taking care of the poor has the largest verbiage in the bible at 300 times. Conservative Christians will be standing at the gates of heaven and Lazarus will be there and he won't let them in. "

They honestly do not get it, J.

They have chomped into the hook too firmly...and just cannot escape.

 

[tosca1]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Why don't people like you and Tosca wake up, "Logic"man?

Lemme ask you this:

If Jesus were on the scene and asked, "Do you think we should spend more money on social programs designed to help people in need...or should it be spent on war machines to kill people?"...

Jesus didn't interfere with politics.


Jesus lived in one of history’s most corrupt societies. But He perfectly maintained His Father’s perspective on social and political matters, even though He lived in a society that was every bit as pagan and corrupt as today’s culture. Cruel tyrants and dictators ruled throughout the region, and the institution of slavery was firmly entrenched. Legal and economic oppression of the Jews by Rome was rampant, dwarfing anything we experience today. But even in the face of such tyranny, Jesus never issued a call for political changes, even by peaceful means.

He never attempted to “capture the culture” for biblical morality. He did not come to earth to be a political or social reformer. Rather, He came to establish a new spiritual order.

He came not to make the old order moral through social and governmental reform, but to make new creatures (His people) holy through the saving power of the gospel and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

He knew what many today fail to grasp: governments and institutions are made up of people. When people’s hearts are changed by Christ, godly governments and institutions will follow. If the hearts of the people are corrupt, getting them together in groups only multiplies the corruption. What we need is not better government, but better men and women in government.

Should the church get involved in social issues and causes?




You sound like the Pharisees with your question:


Matthew 22

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

I am a hell of a lot closer to the truth about main-stream American conservatism by saying it is motivated by "hooray for me, screw you"...

[emoji38] no, you aren't. You are confusing your emotional reaction to others with their intent. Conservatives ACTUALLY GIVE MORE than liberals do. . If anything, the metrics indicate that what you are describing is closer to a liberal belief. We simply also recognize that the current structure of the welfare state is destructive, and want to stop it from hurting people.

I am glad you are offended by my saying that..

:shrug: bigots ultimately only make themselves look bad, not those they denigrate.

It is a better characterization than you are making.

Both are without substance or support.

Please!!!

And this is what I mean about you choosing to be as ignorant of Christianity as you are of conservatism. Not only are all those things supported by scripture, but I directed you to it earlier.

I am not ignorant...and neither are you.

On this question I am not - but you have consistently demonstrated that not only are you so, but that you prefer to be so.

 

[cpwill]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Why don't people like you and Tosca wake up, "Logic"man?

Lemme ask you this:

If Jesus were on the scene and asked, "Do you think we should spend more money on social programs designed to help people in need...or should it be spent on war machines to kill people?"...

...what do you suppose he would say?

He would likely respond by asking what percentage of your income you give away. Jesus was above, and pretty good at exposing the problems with those who would attempt to get him to solve their petty politics.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

He would likely respond by asking what percentage of your income you give away. Jesus was above, and pretty good at exposing the problems with those who would attempt to get him to solve their petty politics.

I cannot find anywhere that Jesus taught that benevolence was a government or group activity. He was pretty specific that it was an individual responsibility though his disciples did form organizations in which they could voluntarily pool resources to help those they accepted responsibility to help. He did have very harsh words for those who would demand that others behave as commanded when they took no responsibility for their own behavior.

 

[Logicman]

Re: How can the right even suggest that they are Christian

Why don't people like you and Tosca wake up, "Logic"man?

Lemme ask you this:

If Jesus were on the scene and asked, "Do you think we should spend more money on social programs designed to help people in need...or should it be spent on war machines to kill people?"...

...what do you suppose he would say?

It's not "either/or," Frank. Sure he fed the poor. But remember, Jesus is God, and he's the one who put to death 185,000 Assyrians in Isaiah chapter 37. He's also the one who told Jerusalem they would be sacked (which occurred in 70 AD) because they did not recognize the time of God's (Jesus') visitation and rejected him. Also, if you will ever read the Book of Revelation, he's not feeding the poor anymore but bringing Judgment to the world.

As for how much to give, Jesus indicated around 10% or so. Liberals want 40, 50, and even 80%, if not all of it. You people don't know when to quit.

You might want to read this article to see why "redistribution of wealth" isn't a good idea.

Obama vs. the Bible ? Redistribution of Wealth « The Righter Report

Excerpt: "It is America’s men and women of wealth, imbued with religious and civic responsibility, who have served as the greatest patrons of the civic infrastructure, be it hospitals, libraries, museums, the arts, or the charitable United Way. England once had those patrons, but they went away as redistribution of wealth came in."

You need to delve into the Bible more because your superficial rendering of it and Jesus is a howler.

The mystified expressions shown here about why I think the American conservative agenda is not step in step with the thrust of the teachings of Jesus...are about as disingenuous as anything I have ever encountered.

I get a laugh out of it...truly I do. In fact, I often do it unthinkingly...and Nancy has to ask me, "What the heck are you laughing about?"

But...get with it guys.

Be a Christian.

Or be an American conservative.

Or...be both...and understand why some people are going to call you a HYPOCRITE.

Nonsense. You STILL have yet to make your case. Almost everyone is trying to tell you that you've failed miserably with your poor arguments.