How can anyone believe in gun control?

[Rucker61]

Enough rounds in the air and the concern of accuracy decreases dramatically, especially if you aren't worried about hitting innocent bystanders.

"in the air" is correct - muzzle climb means you're expending a scarce resource (ammo) without any chance of hitting your target.

 

[Cigar]

If anything, the kill totals would be higher if the suspects had an actual machine gun since they would have additional firepower and correspondingly more rounds

I like my chances with a couple nicely grouped 9mm 147 grain HSTs :mrgreen:

 

[Ace300]

You'd have to be near brain dead to honestly try and still not be able to understand the appeal of gun control. Look at places like Japan that have amazingly strict gun control and in 2014 had 6 gun deaths in the entire country as opposed to over 30,000 in the US. I'm not saying that this proves we need further gun control or that any particular form of gun control will be effective or not, but how on earth could you not understand that some americans see numbers like that and don't wonder "hmm, what can we do to reduce that 30,000+ number?"

Good point.

 

[roughdraft274]

If we were to give every Japanese adult a gun, nearly every single one of them would turn it in, as possession would be against the law. The penalties for non-compliance are too harsh, both legally and socially.

Our knife homicide rate is higher than their entire homicide rate, and knives are as easy to get their as they are here. It's a different culture.

Right. I've never said their rate wouldn't bump up to ours. But to say it wouldn't go up period as if you know that to be true is silly.

 

[Rucker61]

Right. I've never said their rate wouldn't bump up to ours. But to say it wouldn't go up period as if you know that to be true is silly.

I'l admit to some hyperbole. The likelihood of zero additional homicides is nonexistent. I doubt there'd be a meaningful increase in their homicide rate.

 

[Tigerace117]

"in the air" is correct - muzzle climb means you're expending a scarce resource (ammo) without any chance of hitting your target.

That's only if you fired like a maniac, in which case over heating the barrel would seem to be a much more pressing concern.

 

[Tigerace117]

I like my chances with a couple nicely grouped 9mm 147 grain HSTs :mrgreen:

Assuming one gets the drop on the bad guy anyway.

 

[Rucker61]

That's only if you fired like a maniac, in which case over heating the barrel would seem to be a much more pressing concern.

What is a common word that could be used to describe someone who would shoot up a school full of 6 year olds, or a nightclub full of patrons?

 

[Tigerace117]

What is a common word that could be used to describe someone who would shoot up a school full of 6 year olds, or a nightclub full of patrons?

Hm...."terrorist" for two hundred Alex

 

[Rucker61]

Hm...."terrorist" for two hundred Alex

The category is "six letter words beginning with the letter M"

 

[roughdraft274]

I'l admit to some hyperbole. The likelihood of zero additional homicides is nonexistent. I doubt there'd be a meaningful increase in their homicide rate.

Thank you. That's a much more reasonable answer. And I agree that there likely wouldn't be a large increase and that the difference in homicide rates can also be highly related to culture, but I don't find it unlikely that they would receive some kind of a decent bump if you were to legalize all guns and give each Japanese citizen a gun. It's just reality. All kinds of situations, such as domestic violence, is much more likely to end in homicide when a gun is present.

 

[Rucker61]

Thank you. That's a much more reasonable answer. And I agree that there likely wouldn't be a large increase and that the difference in homicide rates can also be highly related to culture, but I don't find it unlikely that they would receive some kind of a decent bump if you were to legalize all guns and give each Japanese citizen a gun. It's just reality. All kinds of situations, such as domestic violence, is much more likely to end in homicide when a gun is present.

I never claimed that we'd legalize guns before giving them to each Japanese citizen.

Also, only about half of the adult female homicide victims are killed with a gun. It seems that attackers who are larger and stronger are about as effective without a gun as with.

 

[roughdraft274]

I never claimed that we'd legalize guns before giving them to each Japanese citizen.

Lol. Right. What you said is that they'd all turn the guns in because of the strict gun laws. Therefor arguing that gun control magically works lol.

But my point of saying to legalize the guns is to make the country more like ours so it would be more apples to apples than otherwise. I wasn't trying to say you claimed that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Crimefree]

The only way anyone can support a lie is for them to fall hook line and sinker for the emotional crap gun control uses plucking their heart strings. A person who uses a bit of intelligence to check any gun control claims cannot fall for the lies gun control uses. Not even when wrapped up in gut wrenching, baby splattered, tear jerking guise.

Just because gun control says a gun shattered this babies bones tearing its body apart and leaving totally distraught parents childless does not make guns responsible. Only the gullible unthinking fall for gun control because they are to lazy to check or use any logical thinking.

 

[soylentgreen]

The only way anyone can support a lie is for them to fall hook line and sinker for the emotional crap gun control uses plucking their heart strings. A person who uses a bit of intelligence to check any gun control claims cannot fall for the lies gun control uses. Not even when wrapped up in gut wrenching, baby splattered, tear jerking guise.

Just because gun control says a gun shattered this babies bones tearing its body apart and leaving totally distraught parents childless does not make guns responsible. Only the gullible unthinking fall for gun control because they are to lazy to check or use any logical thinking.

That same argument also works for the pro gun lobby. As long as they can keep trying to pretend it is about controlling guns then they do not have to get involved in any serious discussions about guns and can then keep the status quo that they are seeking.
The reality is in fact that guns do not kill, people kill. So the laws should center around safety and uses of guns rather than the gun itself.

But as long as you can keep pretending that it is about guns then the longer you can avoid any intelligent discussion on the subject.

 

[Crimefree]

That same argument also works for the pro gun lobby. As long as they can keep trying to pretend it is about controlling guns then they do not have to get involved in any serious discussions about guns and can then keep the status quo that they are seeking.

The reality is in fact that guns do not kill, people kill. So the laws should center around safety and uses of guns rather than the gun itself.

But as long as you can keep pretending that it is about guns then the longer you can avoid any intelligent discussion on the subject.

The reality is that you clearly see that there is no causal relationship yet immediately forget that and suggest some sort of control is needed. Discussing what is not responsible and spending effort on safety with what is not responsible has to be completely a waste of time and money.

You agree a big mac has nothing to do with crime. Would serious discussing around safety with big macs be of any impact on crime?

Just wondering how the convoluted brain works when logic no longer applies.

Gun control is LIE. Every part of it is a lie.

 

[TurtleDude]

That same argument also works for the pro gun lobby. As long as they can keep trying to pretend it is about controlling guns then they do not have to get involved in any serious discussions about guns and can then keep the status quo that they are seeking.
The reality is in fact that guns do not kill, people kill. So the laws should center around safety and uses of guns rather than the gun itself.

But as long as you can keep pretending that it is about guns then the longer you can avoid any intelligent discussion on the subject.

the gun control movement doesn't even believe its about crime control. Listen to any discussion involving leaders of the gun control movement. ITs always about the NRA and not criminals. its power purse and simple.

 

[soylentgreen]

The reality is that you clearly see that there is no causal relationship yet immediately forget that and suggest some sort of control is needed. Discussing what is not responsible and spending effort on safety with what is not responsible has to be completely a waste of time and money.

You agree a big mac has nothing to do with crime. Would serious discussing around safety with big macs be of any impact on crime?

Just wondering how the convoluted brain works when logic no longer applies.

Gun control is LIE. Every part of it is a lie.

First tell me why you are even bringing crime into this conversation about guns? I understand well the lack of reasoning used by the pro gun lobby, but what vague connection will you make.

Please say it has to do with stopping crime because it always pleases me to point out what a crappy place america must be that it's people need to go around locked and loaded because thieves are so desperate they will kill for small change.

 

[soylentgreen]

the gun control movement doesn't even believe its about crime control. Listen to any discussion involving leaders of the gun control movement. ITs always about the NRA and not criminals. its power purse and simple.

It is a red herring of theirs. they say they need guns to protect themselves from it and when i point out what a ****hole america must be with such desperate criminals they back off and tell me it's not that bad it's just in case. In other words a false reason that sounds good until it is actually inspected.

 

[Rucker61]

First tell me why you are even bringing crime into this conversation about guns? I understand well the lack of reasoning used by the pro gun lobby, but what vague connection will you make.

Please say it has to do with stopping crime because it always pleases me to point out what a crappy place america must be that it's people need to go around locked and loaded because thieves are so desperate they will kill for small change.

Does New Zealand have much of a meth problem? Does the government actually enforce laws against violence? Do your police have a legal obligation to protect members of the public?

 

[soylentgreen]

Does New Zealand have much of a meth problem? Does the government actually enforce laws against violence? Do your police have a legal obligation to protect members of the public?

Yes. we have crime, again what has this to do with the gun issue.

 

[calamity]

I don't think its that hard to understand, even though I disagree. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

I used to be VERY anti-gun, I hated the fact that they even existed, I hated everyone involved in their creation. The idea that people could own a thing that they could just point at me and I'm gone was abhorrent to me. Witnessing a murder as a child cemented this fear of and hatred of guns.

It took decades and having a gun owning roommate to change my perception of them. Before I graduated college I cared little about the 2nd Amendment or what it safeguards, I just wanted to keep having a good time and the idea of guns making things safer would have been counter intuitive for me.

Although my values have changed, I still understand the revoltion some have towards guns. I even used to look down on hunters, ignorance can do that to you.

I used to oppose conceal and carry for anyone who simply wanted to CCW. I also used to support restrictions on certain firearms and magazine clips. Although I never was against guns in the home, I did support harsh penalty for anyone who allows their gun to fall into the wrong hands, resulting in death or injury to a minor. My views have since changed.

My thoughts on CCW changed when I began talking to women who carried. It wasn't hard to sell me on that, since I always knew women faced significant risk simply by being out and about. It was a slam dunk when the people I knew carried also liked hiking in the woods alone or walked in dark parking lots often. "Of course they should be allowed to own a gun and carry it," I easily convinced myself.

As far as owning machine guns and other military grade weapons, my views changed simply because I read the "militia" part into the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. It's our duty to be well armed---at least so it can be argued--in case we are needed. Sure, it might be a gun nut's wet dream to pull out the AK and take out rebels or an overly aggressive state, but it is what it is. No law shall restrict guns without first flipping the 2nd.

 

[Tomjas]

I used to oppose conceal and carry for anyone who simply wanted to CCW. I also used to support restrictions on certain firearms and magazine clips. Although I never was against guns in the home, I did support harsh penalty for anyone who allows their gun to fall into the wrong hands, resulting in death or injury to a minor. My views have since changed.

My thoughts on CCW changed when I began talking to women who carried. It wasn't hard to sell me on that, since I always knew women faced significant risk simply by being out and about. It was a slam dunk when the people I knew carried also liked hiking in the woods alone or walked in dark parking lots often. "Of course they should be allowed to own a gun and carry it," I easily convinced myself.

As far as owning machine guns and other military grade weapons, my views changed simply because I read the "militia" part into the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. It's our duty to be well armed---at least so it can be argued--in case we are needed. Sure, it might be a gun nut's wet dream to pull out the AK and take out rebels or an overly aggressive state, but it is what it is. No law shall restrict guns without first flipping the 2nd.

This is where the gun lobby loses all credibility

If you simply said that you liked guns, feel more comfortable having them around than not and the law says I can then so be it.

But coming out with nonsense like "It's our duty to be well armed" and claiming that a piece of legislation is sacrosanct and can never be changed despite being an amendment itself is just rubbish.

And dont get me started on the conspiracy nuts who claim that gun control is all about restricting the power of the people - hello, it's because people dont want to see innocent people shot :slapme:

 

[calamity]

This is where the gun lobby loses all credibility

If you simply said that you liked guns, feel more comfortable having them around than not and the law says I can then so be it.

Uh, I don't really like guns, certainly do not carry them, and haven't actually shot one in probably ten years. So, fail #1.

But coming out with nonsense like "It's our duty to be well armed" and claiming that a piece of legislation is sacrosanct and can never be changed despite being an amendment itself is just rubbish.

You missed the "at least so it can be argued" part in your rant. And, yes. If you read the 2nd, it definitely can so be argued. Fail #2

And dont get me started on the conspiracy nuts who claim that gun control is all about restricting the power of the people - hello, it's because people dont want to see innocent people shot :slapme:

Most people shot and killed by guns are the people holding the gun and shooting themselves, on purpose. Fail #3.

 

[TurtleDude]

This is where the gun lobby loses all credibility

If you simply said that you liked guns, feel more comfortable having them around than not and the law says I can then so be it.

But coming out with nonsense like "It's our duty to be well armed" and claiming that a piece of legislation is sacrosanct and can never be changed despite being an amendment itself is just rubbish.

And dont get me started on the conspiracy nuts who claim that gun control is all about restricting the power of the people - hello, it's because people dont want to see innocent people shot :slapme:

what credibility does a foreigner who supported the cowardly actions of his government, have talking about our rights and our constitution? zero