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How Can America Restore Its Global Competitiveness?

Troubadour

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Ever since the Reagan administration first began the trend of liquidating our infrastructure for tax cuts, the United States has steadily lost its global leadership in practically every area of society and economics. In fact, in many areas we are no longer even classed in the First World - for instance, our health care system competes with the likes of Slovenia and Morocco. Meanwhile, massive trade deficits with China, along with forward-thinking infrastructure investments by its government, have contributed to seeing its global power and position skyrocket while ours declines. The answer to this pattern of decline is clearly not to continue that policies that created it, so what solutions can be brought to bear?

I realize it's difficult to understand just how far ahead of us China is getting just by hearing all the statistics that are by now so commonplace, so I'd like to present you with some visual aids. This is the city of Guangzhou:

5146786982_69ea488abd_z.jpg


5146790226_408da14a11_z.jpg


This is Shenzhen:

5147146016_d45b190f83_z.jpg


This is Chongqing:

99065.jpg


This is Shanghai:

4654446079_650b28c5be_b.jpg


I could post more examples of Chinese cities that look equally awesome, but apparently there's a 5-image limit on this forum. Anyway, the important point is that practically ALL of the structures shown were built in the last decade. China has remade itself, and what policies allowed it to achieve this? Hint: It wasn't tax cuts, reduced infrastructure spending, or military aggression - sorry, Republicans.
 

Teh Internets

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With china's rapid growth and strong economy it looks strangely like America in it's early days.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Ever since the Reagan administration first began the trend of liquidating our infrastructure for tax cuts, the United States has steadily lost its global leadership in practically every area of society and economics. In fact, in many areas we are no longer even classed in the First World - for instance, our health care system competes with the likes of Slovenia and Morocco. Meanwhile, massive trade deficits with China, along with forward-thinking infrastructure investments by its government, have contributed to seeing its global power and position skyrocket while ours declines. The answer to this pattern of decline is clearly not to continue that policies that created it, so what solutions can be brought to bear?

I realize it's difficult to understand just how far ahead of us China is getting just by hearing all the statistics that are by now so commonplace, so I'd like to present you with some visual aids. This is the city of Guangzhou:

I could post more examples of Chinese cities that look equally awesome, but apparently there's a 5-image limit on this forum. Anyway, the important point is that practically ALL of the structures shown were built in the last decade. China has remade itself, and what policies allowed it to achieve this? Hint: It wasn't tax cuts, reduced infrastructure spending, or military aggression - sorry, Republicans.

I don't actually get your point, here - with the photos stuff.
We have countless cities that look *just like that* :shrug: All over the place. Issue in China: land-mass. Their actual sprawl is smaller - they're more confined. Thus - they build *up* rather than *out*
As do all major countries - building up is quite efficient.

You're discussing statistics - but presenting nothing but photos of construction projects.

It makes no sense.
 

Harshaw

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Hmmm. They did it by:

Rolling tanks over protests.

Creating industrial wastelands the size of Montana.

Brutalizing whole religions.

Outlawing unions; allowing near slave-labor conditions.

Robbing the countryside to feed their cities.

And so on.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Hmmm. They did it by:

Rolling tanks over protests.

Creating industrial wastelands the size of Montana.

Brutalizing whole religions.

Outlawing unions; allowing near slave-labor conditions.

Robbing the countryside to feed their cities.

And so on.

Heck! They could be Americans over there!
Holy crapoly I swear the similarities are amazing!

Always trampling on the backs of the poor and the pathetic to make your wya to the top! Hooah! So goes the tale of nation-building.

I agree with the view of Rousseau on this - I'd rather us be just a normal country making our way fairly decently through life if it means people are GRANTED their rights and priviledges in the process as opposed to, apparently, what it takes to be "number one"

I think we give too much thought to being "the ****" and in the process just **** on others in an effort to falsely hold ourselves above the waterline.

Inevitably, though, the toilet always gets flushed.

Seriously - think about it. Any "number one!" civilization STILL number one? How long did it last? What did they have to do to get there? What are they like, now?
 
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Troubadour

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With china's rapid growth and strong economy it looks strangely like America in it's early days.

Which only makes the speed with which it's overtaking us that much more disturbing. Its cities already look like science fiction movie sets, while we struggle just to keep local shopping mall or park developments going. If this is what the new China looks like in its infancy, what's it going to be when it gets serious?

I don't actually get your point, here - with the photos stuff.
We have countless cities that look *just like that* :shrug: All over the place.

No, we have two cities whose downtowns look like that - only smaller, shorter, and built decades ago.

You're discussing statistics - but presenting nothing but photos of construction projects.

I mention statistics in passing, because obviously they've failed to impress people if we're still pursuing the failed policies of three decades. I thought maybe China churning out cities by the bushel that compete with ones it took us the 20th century to build up would have greater impact.

Hmmm. They did it by: Rolling tanks over protests.

Had nothing to do with their economy.

Creating industrial wastelands the size of Montana.

As if we haven't been - the difference is that the money from their projects goes into infrastructure while ours just accumulates in the hands of the Republican financial base.

Brutalizing whole religions.

Also has nothing to do with their economy.

Outlawing unions; allowing near slave-labor conditions.

Yes, that's something we definitely can't allow to take place in America, Republican intentions notwithstanding. But the point is the investments in infrastructure being made from the profits.
 

digsbe

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The GDP per citizen in Shanghai is only around $11,000. Modern skyscrapers don't mean everything. China is nothing to uphold as equal to and greater than America.
 

MKULTRABOY

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The GDP per citizen in Shanghai is only around $11,000. Modern skyscrapers don't mean everything. China is nothing to uphold as equal to and greater than America.

That doesn't matter, whats the relative purchasing power of each one of those dollars.
Also, Chinese cities that I've been in are really impressive. American cities I've been to tend to look a little 'tired' in some ways. And as for Chinese cities with actual skylines etc, I believe china beats us significantly in total altitude of all buildings put together. Dont remember where I saw that. I dont see how we can approach that type of growth, theyre a nation of a billion rapidly modernizing and expanding with constantly growing markets and wealth. For some people allowing the rich to get richer is the way to go here.
 

Troubadour

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I agree with the view of Rousseau on this - I'd rather us be just a normal country making our way fairly decently through life if it means people are GRANTED their rights and priviledges in the process as opposed to, apparently, what it takes to be "number one"

What level of freedom do you expect we'll have if China can buy our elections and out-spend us on every front? If the country on top isn't a democracy, then the prospects for democracy internationally go way down.

Any "number one!" civilization STILL number one? How long did it last? What did they have to do to get there? What are they like, now?

Still, I wouldn't trade the benefits given to the world by Athens, Rome, Venice, France, and Britain for 2,500 years of static mediocrity.

laughs hysterically

You find something funny about Americans dying?
 

Aunt Spiker

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Most of China's "success" is government crafted - they are China, after all . .

You're looking at it through Adam's scope of the 4-stage level of cultural development. but the success and wealth of a nation can't and isn't measure just by that alone.

Now - nevermind the smoke and mirrors. You have to asses OUR culture, economy and society within our selves - you can't contrast us iwth china and try to come to some accurate conclusions. It just doesn't cross over that way.

One simple thing: all the jobs that we sent over there- if we just bring them *back here* and become producers and suppliers rather than users and buyers we'd see a shift of some type.
 

Harshaw

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Had nothing to do with their economy.

Sure it does. You cannot separate their government and its policies from their economy.


As if we haven't been

Where are they?


Also has nothing to do with their economy.

Ditto, above.


Yes, that's something we definitely can't allow to take place in America, Republican intentions notwithstanding. But the point is the investments in infrastructure being made from the profits.

That may be the point you're trying to make, sure. But that nicey-nice interpretation of things just doesn't hold. They're able to invest in material with comparatively little precisely because they do it with near-slavery. Among other niceties we insist upon here that we take for granted and they dispense with, like, you know, consulting the populace.
 

Harshaw

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Now I thought that was an impossible unthinkable unworkable travesty. :ssst:

The government can build anything it wants. That doesn't mean there's something sustainably real underneath.
 

Troubadour

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Most of China's "success" is government crafted

So was our success, until the right in this country decided to dismantle our infrastructure and euthanize the American Dream.

Now - nevermind the smoke and mirrors. You have to asses OUR culture, economy and society within our selves - you can't contrast us iwth china and try to come to some accurate conclusions. It just doesn't cross over that way.

I choose to hold my country to the highest possible standards. To do otherwise would be a disservice.

One simple thing: all the jobs that we sent over there- if we just bring them *back here* and become producers and suppliers rather than users and buyers we'd see a shift of some type.

Which simply restates the question - how do we restore America's global competitiveness?
 

Troubadour

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Oh... its a fake economy of some-sort. I see.

With fake skyscrapers, fake bullet trains, fake factories, and fake trade surpluses, apparently...:) I'll never understand the need of people with a strong ideological bent to deny that something is real because their beliefs say it shouldn't exist.
 
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In 1973, after a trip to China, David Rockefeller praised Mao Tse-tung who had slaughtered over 40 million people. His report, "From a China Traveler," highlights the goals presented in UN reports such as "The Commission on Global Governance" and UNESCO's Our Creative Diversity. Both focus on lofty ideals such as peace, harmony and unity in the communitarian "global" village -- a vision that demands absolute control and universal participation in facilitated small groups (modeled by the hierarchy of "soviets" or councils in Communist lands):

One is impressed immediately by the sense of national harmony.... Whatever the price of the Chinese Revolution it has obviously succeeded... in fostering high morale and community purpose. General social and economic progress is no less impressive....The enormous social advances of China have benefited greatly form the singleness of ideology and purpose.... The social experiment in China under Chairman Mao's leadership is one of the most important and successful in history.
New York Times, 8-10-1973 (Notice the year and what was actually taking place in China at the time)

Rockefeller and Global Mind Control

Perhaps J.P. Morgan, Chase Manhattan rings a bell? For world government to even have a chance, America's sovereignty must be destroyed, it's currency devalued, and it's living status brought down to an operating equivalence of the existing nations. The progressive liberal sector of America have pushed for this ideology since the 1960's. It's called Global Communism, and it's at our doorstep!
 

Simon W. Moon

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After WWII, most every other industrialized country in the world had it's infrastructure decimated--except the US.
After WWII, we would had to have been horrible not to have risen to preeminence.

It's natural now that other countries are catching up.
 

Aunt Spiker

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You know, when it comes to just *them* it seems like it's just long overdue - them having any financial pedestal to stand on for a while.

They're one of the longest lasting cultures with one of the most ancient languages and have provided the world with numerous innovations - but only *now* are seeing greatness?

That's not greatness, really. That's being a ****ty country.
 

Simon W. Moon

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We need to be the new ME in re energy. We need to be suppliers of alternative energy technology for the world. We need to have the intellectual capital to dominate the future of technologies.
 

getagrip

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They're one of the longest lasting cultures with one of the most ancient languages and have provided the world with numerous innovations - but only *now* are seeing greatness?

That's not greatness, really. That's being a ****ty country.

Not sure of the expletive that was blocked, but when you consider China's humanitarian status since the defeat of Chang Kai Shek's Nationalist Party (former US ally) by Mao's "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" mantra, the foreign policy initiatives of Nixon, Clinton, Bush to WTO permanent status and the traitorous sale of technology for political gain endeavors have been to our disadvantage. When a Communist country holds a Trillion Dollars of your debt, look no further than the 1956 British Suez Canal Crisis & US Financial War intervention for political blackmail potential.
 

Troubadour

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Modern skyscrapers don't mean everything.

They sure seemed to mean something when we were the only one who had them.

China is nothing to uphold as equal to and greater than America.

Greatness is something a country does, not something it is. Right now, China is doing it and we're not - in fact, we haven't for decades.

Sure it does. You cannot separate their government and its policies from their economy.

Don't be obtuse. We can invest in infrastructure without banning religions or pillaging natural resources.

Where are they?

Same place they've always been - Appalachia.

kayford5.jpg


But that nicey-nice interpretation of things just doesn't hold. They're able to invest in material with comparatively little precisely because they do it with near-slavery.

But they're also investing more of their economy in infrastructure overall. That's just sound planning for the future, regardless of how your political system is structured. They don't just pray to the god of capitalism to make growth happen, they facilitate it with forward-looking public budget priorities.

After WWII, most every other industrialized country in the world had it's infrastructure decimated--except the US.
After WWII, we would had to have been horrible not to have risen to preeminence.

It's natural now that other countries are catching up.

Natural, certainly. But do we have to be content with mediocrity? Is that what we stand for now?

You know, when it comes to just *them* it seems like it's just long overdue - them having any financial pedestal to stand on for a while.

They're one of the longest lasting cultures with one of the most ancient languages and have provided the world with numerous innovations - but only *now* are seeing greatness?

That's not greatness, really. That's being a ****ty country.

And what does it mean for a country to go in 30 years from being a global hyperpower to being a tired foreign-commodity junkie with no manufacturing base, crumbling infrastructure, and Third World services?
 

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After WWII, most every other industrialized country in the world had it's infrastructure decimated--except the US.
After WWII, we would had to have been horrible not to have risen to preeminence.

It's natural now that other countries are catching up.

It's not just that, our infrastructure was entirely untouched during WWII and we had geared up so heavily for the war effort, with thousands of new factories, plus millions of trained workers, that after the war, all of that had to be turned to something and we ended up being the technological leader worldwide. However, we didn't sustain the momentum, it wasn't that long before we started to lose our edge and other nations started catching up. Japan, for instance, which was once laughable with technology compared to the U.S., became the world leader in innovative technology. Now that's moved to China. We could have maintained our lead but we squandered it and now we're acting like it's not our fault that other countries that have the drive to succeed are catching up.
 

Black_Zawisza

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You find something funny about Americans dying?
Nope. I ain't that much of an asshole, in case you were wondering. I simply find your belief in the equivalence of Slovenian and American health care hilarious, that's all.
 
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