Home Remodeling Esstimates

[Rexedgar]

Many years ago, remodeling estimates were detailed. Material was going to cost this much, labor this much and any incidentals were specified.

The missus wants to gut the master bath and I don’t think it is economically sound, given we are near selling and downsizing. Next few years. I have negotiated done to redo/replace the shower and replace a light and a fan/heater/light assembly.

The company that she has picked provide an overall price with no details about how they arrived at the number.. In this age, the total isn’t that outrageous, but they require 30% at signing, 30% at tear out, and another 30% when the tile work is done. To my thinking this leave us very little leverage if something goes sideways.

Plus they want two weeks to replace a custom corner shower stall, replace the overhead light, exhaust fan unit, patch and paint the ceiling. That seems awfully long to me?

Anyone have any recent experiences with this type of thing?

It is very difficult to get anyone to come to your home and give you an estimate any more. Everyone is chasing the home run balls, don’t want to do little jobs.

I think there are a few contractor typed her as well, how do you guys do it?

 

[Ishm]

My personal experience with contractors has caused me to learn every skill that I am legally allowed to use in remodelling my home. Things now take a little longer, but cost a small fraction of what the estimates would be, and the jobs get done to a higher standard without endless requests for variations or excuses about why things aren't being delivered on time or to quality.

In a more direct answer to your question, if I do have to use a contractor I get a very detailed description of what exactly they are going to deliver and take photos of finish standards that they sign as being examples of the quality they will deliver. It is also very wise to get a list of the assumptions they use in the pricing as that helps a lot when they start looking for variations later. After all that is agreed, I am very firm, but also very reasonable. for instance, if there is a legitimate variation due to some unexpected problem with the existing structure then I just run through the cost of the variation and as long as it is reasonable I will pay it without argument. On the other hand, if they missed something out when doing their estimate, I am unlikely to pay.

In your case above I would not be happy to have paid 60% (2/3rds??) of the total before I see a single bit of new product on site. I would at least require them to have the tiles, grouts, glues, waterproofing etc on site before paying the 2nd payment. With those first 2 payments they already have nearly all of their costs covered for the entire job. The last payment is mainly their profit or owners pay. That means they should already have bought the materials, which will normally be on their account, meaning that they don't need your 2nd payment for cashflow on your job. You don't want to end up cash flowing their other work and risk them disappearing and you not even having the materials.

 

[Rexedgar]

My personal experience with contractors has caused me to learn every skill that I am legally allowed to use in remodelling my home. Things now take a little longer, but cost a small fraction of what the estimates would be, and the jobs get done to a higher standard without endless requests for variations or excuses about why things aren't being delivered on time or to quality.

In a more direct answer to your question, if I do have to use a contractor I get a very detailed description of what exactly they are going to deliver and take photos of finish standards that they sign as being examples of the quality they will deliver. It is also very wise to get a list of the assumptions they use in the pricing as that helps a lot when they start looking for variations later. After all that is agreed, I am very firm, but also very reasonable. for instance, if there is a legitimate variation due to some unexpected problem with the existing structure then I just run through the cost of the variation and as long as it is reasonable I will pay it without argument. On the other hand, if they missed something out when doing their estimate, I am unlikely to pay.

In your case above I would not be happy to have paid 60% (2/3rds??) of the total before I see a single bit of new product on site. I would at least require them to have the tiles, grouts, glues, waterproofing etc on site before paying the 2nd payment. With those first 2 payments they already have nearly all of their costs covered for the entire job. The last payment is mainly their profit or owners pay. That means they should already have bought the materials, which will normally be on their account, meaning that they don't need your 2nd payment for cashflow on your job. You don't want to end up cash flowing their other work and risk them disappearing and you not even having the materials.

I used to do all my own work. Age has made some jobs much harder, if not impossible. The resistance to detailed pricing and the aggressive draw requirements have me turned off. The missus is bitching because getting people to come out and bid a ‘smaller’ job is Hardin this age.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Many years ago, remodeling estimates were detailed. Material was going to cost this much, labor this much and any incidentals were specified.

The missus wants to gut the master bath and I don’t think it is economically sound, given we are near selling and downsizing. Next few years. I have negotiated done to redo/replace the shower and replace a light and a fan/heater/light assembly.

The company that she has picked provide an overall price with no details about how they arrived at the number.. In this age, the total isn’t that outrageous, but they require 30% at signing, 30% at tear out, and another 30% when the tile work is done. To my thinking this leave us very little leverage if something goes sideways.

Plus they want two weeks to replace a custom corner shower stall, replace the overhead light, exhaust fan unit, patch and paint the ceiling. That seems awfully long to me?

Anyone have any recent experiences with this type of thing?

It is very difficult to get anyone to come to your home and give you an estimate any more. Everyone is chasing the home run balls, don’t want to do little jobs.

I think there are a few contractor typed her as well, how do you guys do it?

All of this is because millennials and GenZs have been told that they have to go to college, even though the degrees, unless very specific, are useless.
VERY few decent millennials or GenZs are seeking a career in construction. Those that are, are doing it because they can't keep a job.
The few GOOD contractors out there know this. And, therefore, capitalize on it by raising their prices.

So, you have 3 choices.
1) Pay less and get screwed by poor workmanship.
2) Pay considerably more and get good results, albeit it will take longer.
3) Do it yourself.

 

[Ginger Ale]

Let me call my hubby over to this thread, we own a plumbing company and we do a lot of remodels. He can help ya.

@brianpatrick , could you come over here a sec?

 

[brianpatrick]

Many years ago, remodeling estimates were detailed. Material was going to cost this much, labor this much and any incidentals were specified.

The missus wants to gut the master bath and I don’t think it is economically sound, given we are near selling and downsizing. Next few years. I have negotiated done to redo/replace the shower and replace a light and a fan/heater/light assembly.

The company that she has picked provide an overall price with no details about how they arrived at the number.. In this age, the total isn’t that outrageous, but they require 30% at signing, 30% at tear out, and another 30% when the tile work is done. To my thinking this leave us very little leverage if something goes sideways.

Plus they want two weeks to replace a custom corner shower stall, replace the overhead light, exhaust fan unit, patch and paint the ceiling. That seems awfully long to me?

Anyone have any recent experiences with this type of thing?

It is very difficult to get anyone to come to your home and give you an estimate any more. Everyone is chasing the home run balls, don’t want to do little jobs.

I think there are a few contractor typed her as well, how do you guys do it?

That scenario sounds pretty reasonable if the price sounds good to you and you feel confident in their work. There is very little work left once tile is done. The 10% would just be trimming out the shower and light fixture. And maybe towel bars or whatever else. If it’s a reputable company they should be able to provide you with references for customers that can vouche for their work and integrity.

Feel free to post work in progress pics and I’d be happy to look them over.

 

[EdwinWillers]

Many years ago, remodeling estimates were detailed. Material was going to cost this much, labor this much and any incidentals were specified.

The missus wants to gut the master bath and I don’t think it is economically sound, given we are near selling and downsizing. Next few years. I have negotiated done to redo/replace the shower and replace a light and a fan/heater/light assembly.

The company that she has picked provide an overall price with no details about how they arrived at the number.. In this age, the total isn’t that outrageous, but they require 30% at signing, 30% at tear out, and another 30% when the tile work is done. To my thinking this leave us very little leverage if something goes sideways.

Plus they want two weeks to replace a custom corner shower stall, replace the overhead light, exhaust fan unit, patch and paint the ceiling. That seems awfully long to me?

Anyone have any recent experiences with this type of thing?

It is very difficult to get anyone to come to your home and give you an estimate any more. Everyone is chasing the home run balls, don’t want to do little jobs.

I think there are a few contractor typed her as well, how do you guys do it?

Were it me, I'd run from this contractor. Fast.

First, the shower can be legitimately replaced in 4-5 days' time, max, if there's tiling, 1-2 days max if it's an insert or pre-fab unit. The light can be replaced in a couple hours.

And the idea of splitting up the payment 30% signing, 30% demo is ludicrous. At 60% "completion" he could disappear having done nothing but tear up your bathroom and walk with 60% of the contract. Estimates don't necessarily include the breakdowns you're thinking on smaller projects like yours, but it's not at all out of the question to ask for the breakdown - especially if you have any suspicions about the contractor. Demand one. If he won't provide, move on.

Second, the "big ticket" item here is the shower. It *may* be fair for the contractor to ask for monies up front to buy the unit (e.g. if it's a particularly expensive unit), however, you're probably talking in the realm of $1500 - $3,000 max for the unit; the primary reason for any up front monies is to purchase large ticket items (generally on large projects) - but any contractor that doesn't have the funds on hand to spend $1,500-$3k themselves is HUGELY suspect, at best a "fly-by-night" operator or "trunk slammer" - someone who just hung out his shingle for the business. Best to avoid these companies.

Third, the contract should be of your making and insistence on the contractor signing. This is to protect yourself. Contracts are ALWAYS a 2-way street. The one who creates the contract will, and should, write it in their favor. The signee has every right to amend it, and should, of stipulations they don't like or prefer instead. In the end you get a contract to which both parties agreed. Never, ever sign a contract of the contractor's sole making - at least not without reading thoroughly and amending as you deem appropriate.

Lastly, the sad thing is is that this has become the way of contracting these days. Hate to say it, being in contracting myself, but with the lack of labor and years of no decent trade training of people, the trade is in dire circumstances overall. There are still good contractors out there, but they're few and far between and you really really need to do your homework to find one. Plus, with the vast numbers of illegals flooding into the country, we're already seeing them infect the trades in a very negative way. Lack of training, skills, ethics, and especially money and tools, has created a large number of very suspect individuals and companies out there trying to get your work. You really really need to be careful.

I will say this though, remodeling the master bath can have a net positive effect on the sell price of your home. Same with kitchen.

 

[EdwinWillers]

Were it me, I'd run from this contractor. Fast.

First, the shower can be legitimately replaced in 4-5 days' time, max, if there's tiling, 1-2 days max if it's an insert or pre-fab unit. The light can be replaced in a couple hours.

And the idea of splitting up the payment 30% signing, 30% demo is ludicrous. At 60% "completion" he could disappear having done nothing but tear up your bathroom and walk with 60% of the contract. Estimates don't necessarily include the breakdowns you're thinking on smaller projects like yours, but it's not at all out of the question to ask for the breakdown - especially if you have any suspicions about the contractor. Demand one. If he won't provide, move on.

Second, the "big ticket" item here is the shower. It *may* be fair for the contractor to ask for monies up front to buy the unit (e.g. if it's a particularly expensive unit), however, you're probably talking in the realm of $1500 - $3,000 max for the unit; the primary reason for any up front monies is to purchase large ticket items (generally on large projects) - but any contractor that doesn't have the funds on hand to spend $1,500-$3k themselves is HUGELY suspect, at best a "fly-by-night" operator or "trunk slammer" - someone who just hung out his shingle for the business. Best to avoid these companies.

Third, the contract should be of your making and insistence on the contractor signing. This is to protect yourself. Contracts are ALWAYS a 2-way street. The one who creates the contract will, and should, write it in their favor. The signee has every right to amend it, and should, of stipulations they don't like or prefer instead. In the end you get a contract to which both parties agreed. Never, ever sign a contract of the contractor's sole making - at least not without reading thoroughly and amending as you deem appropriate.

Lastly, the sad thing is is that this has become the way of contracting these days. Hate to say it, being in contracting myself, but with the lack of labor and years of no decent trade training of people, the trade is in dire circumstances overall. There are still good contractors out there, but they're few and far between and you really really need to do your homework to find one. Plus, with the vast numbers of illegals flooding into the country, we're already seeing them infect the trades in a very negative way. Lack of training, skills, ethics, and especially money and tools, has created a large number of very suspect individuals and companies out there trying to get your work. You really really need to be careful.

I will say this though, remodeling the master bath can have a net positive effect on the sell price of your home. Same with kitchen.

A couple other tips:

If the contractor does want up-front monies for purchase of large ticket items, the best path forward there is to agree to pay if and only if he delivers the item(s) to your house first; once delivered, you can go ahead and pay him, then both parties are covered. If he bails, you at least have the materials and can get another contractor to finish the job (theoretically anyway, ).

In the contract, insist on a definitive schedule with penalties if they do not complete the various milestones on time, which could include payment dates on your part for longer projects. In your case, with a job that's no more than a week or two total duration, multiple milestones probably aren't warranted, but do insist on adherence to a specific schedule.

One reason some contractors don't want to expose details of their estimate is fear the customer (you) will balk at their markups on materials and labor. But the better contractors won't have an issue with this. You, as the customer, should be agreeable to reasonable markups on both - it's how the contractor makes their money. Labor is their most expensive cost, and rates there will vary. But it's not a bad idea to call around to get an idea of what the various companies charge. Know this too, that they routinely call around themselves to see what their competition is charging to see if their rates are either too low or too high.

Most residential materials contractors will purchase their stuff from one of the big box stores. Honestly, it behooves you to do your own rough estimate of costs. You can find pricing for most materials online anymore. Apply taxes and then a 10-15% markup on materials and that should get you in the ball park for those costs. Labor is a different animal unfortunately, but you can do some random order of magnitude guesstimates there too to get you in the approximate ball park to know whether or not your contractor's pricing is legit. Handymen labor can be in the realm of $35 - $75 / hour depending on expertise. Electricians $100 - $150 / hour. Plumbers $150 - $175 / hour (almost as bad as lawyers used to be).

 

[Rexedgar]

That scenario sounds pretty reasonable if the price sounds good to you and you feel confident in their work. There is very little work left once tile is done. The 10% would just be trimming out the shower and light fixture. And maybe towel bars or whatever else. If it’s a reputable company they should be able to provide you with references for customers that can vouche for their work and integrity.

Feel free to post work in progress pics and I’d be happy to look them over.

So the missus went to look at the contract today. The contract cannot be printed or leave the premises. I can’t even point out the other “idiosyncrasies” that occurred during the visit. No record of state contractors licenses, no explanation for why there is confusion with another business of the same type that used to be a franchisee and decided to locate at the strip mall at the next traffic light. One of the employees said, “nobody asks these questions.” No detailed estimate and any claims go to arbitration. What is the difference between “general liability and comprehensive “ business insurance? I am familiar with the differences as far as auto, but not business.


Over my dead body.

 

[brianpatrick]

So the missus went to look at the contract today. The contract cannot be printed or leave the premises. I can’t even point out the other “idiosyncrasies” that occurred during the visit. No record of state contractors licenses, no explanation for why there is confusion with another business of the same type that used to be a franchisee and decided to locate at the strip mall at the next traffic light. One of the employees said, “nobody asks these questions.” No detailed estimate and any claims go to arbitration. What is the difference between “general liability and comprehensive “ business insurance? I am familiar with the differences as far as auto, but not business.


Over my dead body.

As Edwin said, run.

Sorry to hear about that. There are lots of scumbags out there. If you were in AZ I could recommend a bunch of good contractors.

 

[Minerva]

If you have a good insurance agent you might ask them for a recommendation.

 

[phoenix2020]

Thanks @Rexedgar for starting this thread and for the input thus far. If ya'll don't mind my piling on...

I am about to embark on my first remodeling journey - need to remodel our home that a sibling lives in so that our elderly parents can move in. This requires converting / building out two bedrooms from existing living spaces, adding a shower, remodeling portions of the kitchen (if not the whole thing) for more capacity, adding some accessibility features such as handrails, etc. And while I'm at it, I figure we might as well fix some of the nagging issues with the home that we never liked e.g. lighting, terrible water heater and water heating issues etc. I've never done anything like this before.

I decided to approach this like any other [work] project I've run so I'm starting with a written project description that I can shop around to a few contractors to act as a baseline for quotes. Past that, I am at a loss. I am debating whether to engage multiple contractors for targeted work or go all in with one. It's difficult to find clear guidance on which contractors have a sterling reputation versus those who have left customers feeling miserable.

 

[Minerva]

Thanks @Rexedgar for starting this thread and for the input thus far. If ya'll don't mind my piling on...

I am about to embark on my first remodeling journey - need to remodel our home that a sibling lives in so that our elderly parents can move in. This requires converting / building out two bedrooms from existing living spaces, adding a shower, remodeling portions of the kitchen (if not the whole thing) for more capacity, adding some accessibility features such as handrails, etc. And while I'm at it, I figure we might as well fix some of the nagging issues with the home that we never liked e.g. lighting, terrible water heater and water heating issues etc. I've never done anything like this before.

I decided to approach this like any other [work] project I've run so I'm starting with a written project description that I can shop around to a few contractors to act as a baseline for quotes. Past that, I am at a loss. I am debating whether to engage multiple contractors for targeted work or go all in with one. It's difficult to find clear guidance on which contractors have a sterling reputation versus those who have left customers feeling miserable.

My limited experience is that a good General Contractor is worth his markup.
There WILL be issues between the subs and having them answer to the same boss that they may rely on for future work is a good stick.
Any GC in the business for very long will have a list of subs he knows can do their bit without constant oversight.

 

[Rexedgar]

Thanks @Rexedgar for starting this thread and for the input thus far. If ya'll don't mind my piling on...

I am about to embark on my first remodeling journey - need to remodel our home that a sibling lives in so that our elderly parents can move in. This requires converting / building out two bedrooms from existing living spaces, adding a shower, remodeling portions of the kitchen (if not the whole thing) for more capacity, adding some accessibility features such as handrails, etc. And while I'm at it, I figure we might as well fix some of the nagging issues with the home that we never liked e.g. lighting, terrible water heater and water heating issues etc. I've never done anything like this before.

I decided to approach this like any other [work] project I've run so I'm starting with a written project description that I can shop around to a few contractors to act as a baseline for quotes. Past that, I am at a loss. I am debating whether to engage multiple contractors for targeted work or go all in with one. It's difficult to find clear guidance on which contractors have a sterling reputation versus those who have left customers feeling miserable.

Get multiple quotes.
Check for licenses.
Verify insurance.
Demand an itemized estimate.

We may have found a contractor. I ended up calling Home Depot instead of the boutique bath and kitchen shops that my missus was looking at. I’ll keep the thread updated.

 

[Rexedgar]

If you have a good insurance agent you might ask them for a recommendation.

Our insurance company has gotten wind of other renovations that we have done and want to “update” our homeowner policy to reflect the “improvements.”

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

Definately gotta do your homework when it comes to remodel.
I will say one thing, don't put full faith in online reviews.
I've subbed electric for several GC's over the years, and at times, of course, curiosity into 'what's being said out there' for certain reasons.
Be it, got a hint of the price your mark up is making me look like, or your operation is a cluster****, etc..
Examples, on the former, had an owner try to wedge me on a cost quoted to them from GC for an 'extra'. Had to play dumb and reiterate, I'm just a sub, I'm not between you and him. Then he personally heard my frustration.

Did one remodel for him several years ago, and it was his most glowing review!
'Very meticulous and very personable to our needs! It's absolutely perfect! Blah, and more blah, then some more blah..'
Almost to the point where you think they want to blow him. But it was his daughter...

Though I will say he is(or was) near tops. Closing in on 50 in business and eagle eyed. Used to not let shit slip, perfection required. Scheduling and all, wanted every step to be done without a day idle. Fast turnover.

Winding down about to close up shop, some things are just 'meh' now.. Contract signed, check signed.
But he is still above most. Through the grapevine his margin is up there, but that is giving you the expected result.

Get what you pay for. And you pay one person to take the reigns and give you what you want with not much more required of you but your vision of what you want. They may not be on the job all day, but they are still at home at 7PM on the computer sending emails and getting shit in order.

If it goes sideways, one person is your fallback to make it right per contract and quality.

The other cluster**** guy?.. Yeah,.. on and off business acquaintance that will be gone as soon as he squares up with the last bit he owes me.
Your 'skilled labor' looks about as skilled as I saw years ago. Carpentry and all.
You were 'just behind' and did I have time for some work?
Just say your 'electrician' ****** this place all up, and he is no longer with you.

He must just do jobs for the blind, because I couldn't find a sub-five star review.

 

[Cardinal]

So the missus went to look at the contract today. The contract cannot be printed or leave the premises. I can’t even point out the other “idiosyncrasies” that occurred during the visit. No record of state contractors licenses, no explanation for why there is confusion with another business of the same type that used to be a franchisee and decided to locate at the strip mall at the next traffic light. One of the employees said, “nobody asks these questions.” No detailed estimate and any claims go to arbitration. What is the difference between “general liability and comprehensive “ business insurance? I am familiar with the differences as far as auto, but not business.


Over my dead body.

Uh..haha…”Nobody asks these questions.” You can then say, “And now people are.” And of course they’ll tell the next people that asks these questions that nobody asks these questions.

 

[Rexedgar]

Definately gotta do your homework when it comes to remodel.
I will say one thing, don't put full faith in online reviews.
I've subbed electric for several GC's over the years, and at times, of course, curiosity into 'what's being said out there' for certain reasons.
Be it, got a hint of the price your mark up is making me look like, or your operation is a cluster****, etc..
Examples, on the former, had an owner try to wedge me on a cost quoted to them from GC for an 'extra'. Had to play dumb and reiterate, I'm just a sub, I'm not between you and him. Then he personally heard my frustration.

Did one remodel for him several years ago, and it was his most glowing review!
'Very meticulous and very personable to our needs! It's absolutely perfect! Blah, and more blah, then some more blah..'
Almost to the point where you think they want to blow him. But it was his daughter...

Though I will say he is(or was) near tops. Closing in on 50 in business and eagle eyed. Used to not let shit slip, perfection required. Scheduling and all, wanted every step to be done without a day idle. Fast turnover.

Winding down about to close up shop, some things are just 'meh' now.. Contract signed, check signed.
But he is still above most. Through the grapevine his margin is up there, but that is giving you the expected result.

Get what you pay for. And you pay one person to take the reigns and give you what you want with not much more required of you but your vision of what you want. They may not be on the job all day, but they are still at home at 7PM on the computer sending emails and getting shit in order.

If it goes sideways, one person is your fallback to make it right per contract and quality.

The other cluster**** guy?.. Yeah,.. on and off business acquaintance that will be gone as soon as he squares up with the last bit he owes me.
Your 'skilled labor' looks about as skilled as I saw years ago. Carpentry and all.
You were 'just behind' and did I have time for some work?
Just say your 'electrician' ****** this place all up, and he is no longer with you.

He must just do jobs for the blind, because I couldn't find a sub-five star review.

^I’m stealing this!^