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High school drop-outs.

UtahBill said:
The GED is simply a test to determine how you compare to high school grads.
Except for literature, I scored in the 90th percentile. That means I scored better than most others who got their HS diploma. I was bored silly in my high school, and it was supposedlly one of the best academicallly.

As soon as a person turns 16, they should be allowed to take the GED to see if they already know enough to move on. Why keep the smart ones in class when they don't really need it? It allows the teachers to spend more time with those who need the extra hellp.

But I agree with making dropping out an unpopular thing to do.
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I passed the GED the week I turned 16, and I scored in the 95th percentile in everything except math, which I scored in the 80s on.
I've posted a scan of my GED and scores here before.
I was already a mother by then, and needed to be doing other things.
But even if I hadn't been, no purpose would've been served by my remaining in school.
School is one of those things that's good for other people, perhaps, but not for me. I found it extremely soul-crushing. It was destroying my creativity and my natural desire to learn.
My dad understood because he was the same way, and I understood when my sons wanted to drop out too, although you always hope it will be different.
But why would it?
We all scored extremely high on the test.
We already knew what high school would've taught us.
 
middleagedgamer said:
It is still a bastardization to call it an equivalent to a high school diploma.


They can also do that with a high school diploma.

To call it "equal" to a high school diploma is a slap in the face to those of us who actually have one.

Although, your family is at least three generations of high school drop-outs. I wouldn't expect you to understand how insulted I feel that you actually consider your academic achievement equal to mine.
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Academic achievement isn't a priority in my family.
We value other things.
Being useful, for instance.
 
middleagedgamer said:
Every school day, seven thousand teenagers will drop out of high school, according to this citation right here:

http://www.all4ed.org/files/archive/publications/HighCost.pdf

So, in the past week, 35,000 high school dropouts were created. If the school year has 185 days, that means that, on average, there are 1,295,000 teenagers who drop-out.

High school drop-outs make less money; therefore, they contribute less to the economy by being able to consume and invest less. Therefore, it is not just their loss for dropping out; it is the entire country's loss, because of the effects that it has on the GDP.

For example, the difference in the average salary of a high school graduate and a high school dropout is approximately $9,634 a year, according to that source I cited. This means that, every year, high school dropouts cost the country's GDP about $12,476,030,000. That is twelve billion, four hundred seventy six million, thirty thousand dollars of GDP a year. We're not even talking million, anymore; we're talking billion.

Not only that, but that's just for one generation of high school dropouts. This amount will increase with every year. This year, high school dropouts will cost us nearly twelve and a half billion dollars in GDP. Next year, high school dropouts will cost us nearly twenty-five billion dollars in GDP!

By the time you reach the age of retirement, at 65, you have been an adult for 47 years. This means, over the course of your lifetime, you have cost the country over $450,000 in GDP. Over the course of all the lifetimes, a single generation of high school dropouts cost the country over $586 billion, and that's just for ONE generation!

Even right now, 15 million Americans are estimated to possess a GED, according to this.

TestKing.com GED

That means that, as of right now, all high school dropouts, past and present, are costing our GDP approximately $144.51 billion per year, and that is not even counting the people who dropped out without getting a GED.

Are you starting to see the effects that this has on our economy? Clearly, if you drop out of school, you are not just hurting yourself; you are hurting the entire country. Therefore, this HAS to stop.

I believe, anyone who neither possesses a high school diploma, nor is currently enrolled in high school, should not be entitled to any welfare or social security benefits. People who already had a GED prior to the passing of this law would not be affected, as the Constitution clearly prohibits ex post facto laws. Those also affected will also not be entitled to a tax refund, which means all that money that was originally withheld from your paycheck will stay withheld. They will also be barred from serving in the military, which GEDs currently allow.

States may also take measures to discourage high school drop-outs, such as abolishing GED programs altogether (thereby preventing them from going to college).

These provisions are inexpensive to implement (they might even be deficit-reducing, since they are no longer entitled to welfare and social security benefits, the single biggest government expenditure in existence today), and yet, will still encourage kids to stay in school.

Thoughts?
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This is just stupid. First of all, you aren't taking into account the rate at which they return to school. Secondly, you intend to block them from one avenue of gainful employment with a clearly structured career path by blocking the military from them. Third, the GED program is worthy means of getting kids back on an academic career path that will lead to success, opening doors to continuing education programs that metriculate into college degrees. And finally, criminalizing drop out could lead to a whole host of problems in the education system when the schools have to deal with teenage kids that simply don't want to be there nor will they cooperate.

The whole attitude expressed in the OP was a sickening display of ignorance toward a problem that basically called for an institutionalized persecution of a disenfranchised population in ways that would keep them disenfranchised.
 
middleagedgamer said:
A good way to keep the academic sky from falling is to reduce the drop-out rate.
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That is what I meant by "the sky is falling". The dropout rate is high, yes, but let's not keep kids in school when they can "test out". It is a waste of resources. Let's go after the kids who quit because they can't, not those who can but end up dropping out from the boredom...
I finished high school, but needed some summer school because I failed a semester of typing ( got 38 wpm instead of the required 40), and a semester of englislhl (bad attitude by that time), and a semester of Trig (teacher spent all his time talking about himself). You could only get 24 credits, and you had to have ALL OF THEM. Even PE had to be passed.
But, it remains that I never failed a grade level, and tested out very well on the GED, and tested very well on the Navy entrance exams.
What use would it have been to make me retake typing, trig, and english lit....
 
middleagedgamer said:
Okay, so you're not just dumb.

You're a slut.

I think that's even worse.
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You see, this is the sort of thing high school teaches.
I'm glad I skipped it.
At least I know how to smack without sounding like a petulant five-year-old. :lol:
 
winston53660 said:
Whoaaa that was really uncalled for. And shows a very immature intellect.
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I'm telling you: one of my rules in life is, if you meet someone who claims a high school diploma as an "achievement", run.
This is never, never a good sign. :2razz:
 
1069 said:
You see, this is the sort of thing high school teaches.
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Actually, that isn't what high school teaches.

High school teaches you science, math, English, and history, as well as drama, journalism, and foreign languages.

It also preaches abstinence and contraception, which you, obviously, let go in one ear and out the other.
 
1069 said:
I'm telling you: one of my rules in life is, if you meet someone who claims a high school diploma as an "achievement", run.
This is never, never a good sign. :2razz:
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It is a good sign, and I have proven it.

People with a high school diploma ear, on average, over eight hundred dollars a month more than those who don't.

That's an accomplishment, in and of itself.
 
1069 said:
Academic achievement isn't a priority in my family.
We value other things.
Being useful, for instance.
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Being useful? what a concept!!! I know many useless people who have useless degrees...but those degrees might not be useless in a different person's life.

I am the only one in my family (wife and 2 kids) without a HS diploma, or a college degree. But I was able to make some serious bucks without those things. Thank you, Uncle Sam.!!!!

I should have tested out a year earlier than I did, that last year of HS was such a waste of time, for me.
I was always considered useful in my career. And for most of those years, I made more money than my wife who has 3 degrees, BA and 2 MA....
Her last 5 years teaching, tho, she kicked my butt in the paycheck department...
 
middleagedgamer said:
Actually, that isn't what high school teaches.

High school teaches you science, math, English, and history, as well as drama, journalism, and foreign languages.

It also preaches abstinence and contraception, which you, obviously, let go in one ear and out the other.
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.... :2rofll:

I was publishing in prestigious national magazines before I was old enough to buy cigarettes.
I didn't have time to waste in high school.
High school is for the hoi polloi. Like you.
 
UtahBill said:
Being useful? what a concept!!! I know many useless people who have useless degrees...but those degrees might not be useless in a different person's life.

I am the only one in my family (wife and 2 kids) without a HS diploma, or a college degree. But I was able to make some serious bucks without those things. Thank you, Uncle Sam.!!!!

I should have tested out a year earlier than I did, that last year of HS was such a waste of time, for me.
I was always considered useful in my career. And for most of those years, I made more money than my wife who has 3 degrees, BA and 2 MA....
Her last 5 years teaching, tho, she kicked my butt in the paycheck department...
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My dad holds so many certifications, I can't even count them all.
He's dedicated his entire life to volunteerism.
I can't hold a candle to his example, of course; it's a lot to live up to.
But I try to be useful in my own way.
 
middleagedgamer said:
It is a good sign, and I have proven it.

People with a high school diploma ear, on average, over eight hundred dollars a month more than those who don't.

That's an accomplishment, in and of itself.
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If making money's one of your priorities, it's a good sign.
Making money isn't one of my priorities.
I just need enough to live on, and that's it.
There's nothing money can buy that would make me any happier.
 
1069 said:
If making money's one of your priorities, it's a good sign.
Making money isn't one of my priorities.
I just need enough to live on, and that's it.
There's nothing money can buy that would make me any happier.
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That is a level of success that many rich people envy. Having all that you need, and keeping your wants under control, that leads to happiness.
 
Throughout elementary school I was always in advanced placement classes. In middle school I recall I and a hand ful of kids getting bussed to high school to take classes there. In 7th grade I took the SAT's and recall sitting down to a serious discussion with my parents about entering college early. It was a heated discussion, Dad really wanted me to go the Doogie Howser route, Mom - being Mom - was more concerned about me growing up with my peers. I ended up not going to college early. I digress.

By the time I made it to high school, I was in a new school system and there were not advanced classes available for me anymore, not that I would have took them - I was an angry, irresponsible, recklessly rebellious teenager by this time. I blew off high school, it was boring, and it was not challenging at all to me. I was squeaking by - or so I thought - it all came to a head my senior year when I realized I was short on credits and would have had to come back next fall to take 2 classes (one being physical fitness for the love of god!). This did not jive with my planned trip backpacking across Europe, so I dropped out and got my GED the very next day.

Time goes on... eventually I made it back to school and into college, where I ended up pulling a bachelors degree, and graduating with high honers with a 3.95 GPA.

you were saying?
 
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Well, I guess that's a pretty unanimous "no" on outlawing the GED and persecuting the underprivileged and disenfranchised.

Perhaps, next time, a simple poll would be less time consuming.
 
High School was good for chicks and parties.
 
My idea for helping at-risk teens- on the basis of personal experience and having been a mom to teens- is to provide them with mentoring opportunities.

I know that sound like just "feel good" talk, but I really think it's so crucial that trouble teens have an opportunity to show they're responsible and to feel looked up to and respected by smaller kids.
It can change their entire self-image.
If you don't provide them positive ways to do this, they'll simply do it in negative ways, by bullying or by initiating younger children into inappropriate activities.
Teenagers- teenage boys- don't feel like kids anymore and they want opportunities to lead.

At the rec center in my neighborhood, they had a program where they had the older boys (15, 16 years old) coaching the slightly younger boys in basketball.
There were some rules to this: they weren't allowed to verbally or physically abuse the younger children, of course.
But other than that, the adults just stepped back and let them do it, and accepted that the teenagers' style of coaching and mentoring would be slightly different and more unorthodox than an adult's. And that was okay.

Even if kids are totally flunking out of school, opportunities like this- to shine in the areas they are willing and able to, and to help others- are so valuable.
They benefit the older and younger kids both.

Too often, I think we feel that what troubled teens need is more supervision, less responsibility, certainly less access to younger children, whom they might corrupt or harm.
I'm not sure this is true at all, though.
I've seen the opposite.
Troubled teens need legitimate leadership opportunities. They will rise to the occasion.

So that's my 2 cents on how we might keep some kids from dropping out of school, or at the very least, allow them to go into the adult world with some sort of self-esteem.
 
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middleagedgamer said:
Actually, that isn't what high school teaches.
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You're right. By high school one should have developed a wit that goes beyond the **** you just spewed. I think what you did was pretty much grade school antics.
 
I stopped going to school in grade 9 for essentially the year. I wasn't 16 yet so social services became involved. The reason I left was a combination of sheer and utter boredom and being bullied. At age 14 I asked myself, "Why go to school only to be bored or abused?" The school board performed an aptitude test and confirmed the reasons why school was boring for me. Later I was basically forced back to school by law, so in the following year I did grades 9 and 10 simultaneously, while also picking up some advanced standing credit in grade 11. Really, I was just buying my time until age 16.

At age 17 I was in grade 12. I skipped a lot in the beginning that year but managed to make the honor roll, but I dropped out after the second half. I left home and hitchhiked from Toronto to Calgary to meet up with an internet friend; then I hiked back through Montreal and visited my uncle who was living in Halifax at the time. That 4 month window was a much better education for me than the time I would have spent in school.

Even at age 17, I viewed high school as a little more than creating cogs in the wheel for the upcoming middle class. I remember the point when I clearly decided to drop out. My principal came into our art class and basically took over, making it a "career day". We did a bunch of personality tests, found out which careers suit those personalities, and then she had brochures from all these universities that catered to those. By the way, most of those "careers" revolved around science and technology, and completely ignored the arts and creativity. Even so, I was disturbed by how the majority were just eating it up. "Oh look, I would be good at engineering!" I think I was one of three students who were thinking, "Um... how the hell am I supposed to know right now what I want to do for the rest of my life?" I said **** this, and left.

It wasn't until age 21 when I felt a draw towards a specific degree program that I completed high school through correspondence. I got my high school diploma approx. 4 months before my first day at university. I remember meeting so many young people in my first year who went right from high school to university, who had no life experience, and some of them had barely any employment experience! They were just kids to me (even though I was still a kid too in a lot of ways), and were being sold the idea of a dream.

I've met a lot of young people here and there who are struggling with the public system. It's really not meant for everyone. Some people are bullies or kids with psychological problems who make it their mission to disrupt the learning environment, and IMO for these people education should be a privilege, not a right. They should be removed and counseled. Likewise, there are students who are bored or see the obvious flaws in the system and want nothing to do with it, or there are those who have serious stuff happening outside of school and learning about math and English is a low priority. The system has adapted relatively well to provide these people with other avenues.

I also agree that if you can pass the GED at age 16 then you shouldn't have to stay in class. It's a waste of tax dollars, a waste of intelligent youth, and totally soul crushing to youth who are hyper-intelligent and think beyond the confines of such trivial learning modalities.

Honestly, it wasn't until I found my passion and started studying it relentlessly than I de-programmed my hatred of school and realized it could be an amazing experience. Different students have different aptitudes and I think the "rounded education" approach is ineffective. For instance, I'm great at languages (in grade 9 I was writing grade 12 level essays), great at biology and chemistry, but I cannot do mathematics or physics that well, yet I was forced to take both until grade 11. I ask why?

I respect people who don't follow the straight and narrow path. They have the most interesting personalities and life experiences. My view of high school is that it's an obligatory experience that tries to make people square. If you can get through it while being resistant to it, your real education will start later. I always treated high school like a trivial obligation. It was a joke to me really, and I thought it was so sad how a person's GPA equated to their worth in the system.

I met a guy traveling once who said, "There are three major types of education: the school of your parents, the school of academia, and the school of life; and the last one makes liars out of the other two." I have basically lived by that since age 17.

I don't give a crap if dropping out of high school affects the GDP. The government and the economists can kiss my ass in that regard. If I wasn't legally able to drop out, I would have done it anyway, except instead of being rational about it, I would have ran away from home and probably gotten involved with any number of nefarious characters. When I dropped out in grade 9, the system showed at least some iota of care and tried to figure out how to help me. If they tried to punish me, I would have just retreated further.
 
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