• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime?

any bastard who would commit such lies should be hounded by the facts and embarrassed publicly - repeatedly

but it's protected speech. even the lies
hell, if we were going to start prosecuting all of the liars we would have VERY few people in congress
 
justabubba said:
any bastard who would commit such lies should be hounded by the facts and embarrassed publicly - repeatedly

but it's protected speech. even the lies
hell, if we were going to start prosecuting all of the liars we would have VERY few people in congress
Click to expand...

Nevermind Congress, we would have very few people out of jail.

That said, compulsive lying is socially pressured. People are surrounded by other liars, and over time, the frustration builds up. Eventually, they invent something outrageous to balance it out.

Embarrassing these people doesn't solve the lying problem. It just lets false sophistication carry on into the future from whoever originally pressured it.
 
The emotional side of me says claiming false valor should be illegal. But...

...this is why we shouldn't place so much importance on emotion. As much as it pains me to say so, it is freedom of speech, and should be protected as such.

Now, having said that, I am all for publicly humiliating any person who does such a thing, as justabubba says above. It's not slander or libel if it's the truth.

Also, if a person making such a false claim does so in any way affecting their receiving of a job, or honor, or benefit of any kind, then I say they should be charged with fraud. If someone else is stupid enough to name something after them, that's different. If a person claims such false valor in an interview or on an application, even if it meant nothing to the interviewer, than that is conscious fraud, IMO.
 
Daktoria said:
Embarrassing these people doesn't solve the lying problem. It just lets false sophistication carry on into the future from whoever originally pressured it.
Click to expand...
Completely disagree. Public humiliation, when used by most of a society to illuminate something as a social stigma, is actually quite effective. It's unfortunate that we seem to have lost that lesson, and now feel the need to over-think virtually everything.
 
I find it pretty disgusting that Congress would pass a law making lying a crime.
 
Is there an accompanying "Trashed Valor" act to cover people who earned their medals having their reputations and acts undermined and vilified by partisan pond scum?
 
radcen said:
High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime?

High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime? - Yahoo! News
Click to expand...

It is a sticky wicket, isn't it? At first blush, I want to say it should be against the law to say you've won the Distinguished Flying Cross, as an example. Yet you can buy them on EBay.

I guess I have to say, "No, it shouldn't be against the law."

Solve the problem a different way. Put a list of every medal recipient on the internet where people can trust, but verify. ;)
 
radcen said:
Completely disagree. Public humiliation, when used by most of a society to illuminate something as a social stigma, is actually quite effective. It's unfortunate that we seem to have lost that lesson, and now feel the need to over-think virtually everything.
Click to expand...

Public humiliation is what leads to lying in the first place so people can avoid it.
 
radcen said:
High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime?

High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime? - Yahoo! News
Click to expand...

From the article...

"They're committing fraud. They're impersonating somebody else. They take on attributes of somebody else, attributes of a hero who served honorably," said Pam Sterner, whose college term paper calling for the law wound up in the hands of members of Congress. "When you do that, impersonating someone else, that's fraud, not freedom of speech."
Click to expand...

If this is the case then perhaps someone should tell SNL about this. They impersonate people all the time.

Simple fact of the matter is that it shouldn't be a dilemma. Free speech is free speech. While yes what these type of folks do is despicable it is ultimately no different than WBC protesting at military funerals.
 
I disagree with Ms Sterner that they are impersonating 'somebody else'. "A hero" is non-specific and ambiguous.
 
radcen said:
High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime?

High court dilemma: Can lie about medal be crime? - Yahoo! News
Click to expand...

Well - what would happen to a servicemen who misrepresents his military history and awards earned?

If it's wrong FOR servicement to do it intentionally or unintentionally then it's wrong for civilians to do it, too.

I don't think it's a big deal if nothing happens in their favor because of it: but if it gets them a job, a promotion or any sort of public recognition or benefit then they're profiting from an unethical practice and have likely taken that away from someone else who properly earned such recognition.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Well - what would happen to a servicemen who misrepresents his military history and awards earned?

If it's wrong FOR servicement to do it intentionally or unintentionally then it's wrong for civilians to do it, too.

I don't think it's a big deal if nothing happens in their favor because of it: but if it gets them a job, a promotion or any sort of public recognition or benefit then they're profiting from an unethical practice and have likely taken that away from someone else who properly earned such recognition.
Click to expand...
There are many things that service people fight for, yet don't get to enjoy themselves... until they become civilians again.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Well - what would happen to a servicemen who misrepresents his military history and awards earned?

If it's wrong FOR servicement to do it intentionally or unintentionally then it's wrong for civilians to do it, too.

I don't think it's a big deal if nothing happens in their favor because of it: but if it gets them a job, a promotion or any sort of public recognition or benefit then they're profiting from an unethical practice and have likely taken that away from someone else who properly earned such recognition.
Click to expand...


I would agree that an employer would have the right to fire them.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
Well - what would happen to a servicemen who misrepresents his military history and awards earned?

If it's wrong FOR servicement to do it intentionally or unintentionally then it's wrong for civilians to do it, too.
Click to expand...
No. members of the military subject themselves to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It violates the UCMJ (and it may violate federal civil statutes) for a member of the military to misrepresent his earned awards, but civilians do not have to live under the same rules as military members.

I just want to make sure everyone understands the scope of this law. Anyone who walks down the street and casually (and falsely) states to a random passerby that he has earned a Congressional Medal of Honor is subject to punishment under this statute. There need not be anything gained by the statement.

To rule this constitutional is to say that Congress can criminalize any lie, and I'm not particularly fond of that conclusion.
 
Kal'Stang said:
From the article...



If this is the case then perhaps someone should tell SNL about this. They impersonate people all the time.

Simple fact of the matter is that it shouldn't be a dilemma. Free speech is free speech. While yes what these type of folks do is despicable it is ultimately no different than WBC protesting at military funerals.
Click to expand...

First: SNL is parody. There is no attempt to defraud.

Secondly: claiming that you have credentials that you actually do not have for the purpose of some gain, is fraud. Not free speech.
If I remember correctly, false representation of yourself on the Internet is a felony fraud. So, if this were just a free speech issue, it would be a felony to pretend to be an 18year old hot blond in a chatroom and perfectly OK to pretend to have been awarded a Silver Star in a job interview....
 
1Perry said:
I find it pretty disgusting that Congress would pass a law making lying a crime.
Click to expand...

LOL - why care now all of a sudden?

A lot of other regulations have been passed based on being disallowed to give falsehoods under certain conditions :shrug:

I find it more disgusting that someone created this problem to begin with.
 
These lies are part of his resume for getting jobs, running for office etc., He should simply be fired and disgraced in the public square. That is what would happen to us if we made such blatant lies to get a job. This is not really free speech though so that argument n defense of his actions is an insult to free speech.
 
MaggieD said:
It is a sticky wicket, isn't it? At first blush, I want to say it should be against the law to say you've won the Distinguished Flying Cross, as an example. Yet you can buy them on EBay.

I guess I have to say, "No, it shouldn't be against the law."

Solve the problem a different way. Put a list of every medal recipient on the internet where people can trust, but verify. ;)
Click to expand...

At what level do you stop your list? This would an insanely large list. I personally have 29 separate medals and ribbons with multiple awards of most of them.
Just the fact that a person can obtain something by falsly claiming he/she did a tour of duty in Desert Storm (SW Asia CampaignMedal) is still fraud. How do you verify that the John Smith with the Combat Infantry Badge is the one you are speaking to?
 
Chiefgator said:
First: SNL is parody. There is no attempt to defraud.

Secondly: claiming that you have credentials that you actually do not have for the purpose of some gain, is fraud. Not free speech.
Click to expand...

Does this apply to pick up lines?

If I remember correctly, false representation of yourself on the Internet is a felony fraud.
Click to expand...

This happens thousands of times a day.
 
Chiefgator said:
At what level do you stop your list? This would an insanely large list. I personally have 29 separate medals and ribbons with multiple awards of most of them.
Just the fact that a person can obtain something by falsly claiming he/she did a tour of duty in Desert Storm (SW Asia CampaignMedal) is still fraud. How do you verify that the John Smith with the Combat Infantry Badge is the one you are speaking to?
Click to expand...

To claim it to obtain something and to claim it just to brag are two different things. Even then it depends on what you are trying to obtain.
 
1Perry said:
To claim it to obtain something and to claim it just to brag are two different things. Even then it depends on what you are trying to obtain.
Click to expand...

I agree. That is why I specifically stated that it was for gain. Lying to brag is not fraud, but it may get your ass beat....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom