Hey defenders of killing unborn children.

[Fantasea]

No, the question is do you believe that a government has the right to impose compulsory gestation (which means to force a woman to carry a fertilized ovum for the nine month gestation period) and forced parturition (which means to compel her to give birth.)

Except for Harry Blackmun's incorrect and unfortunate guess, the government would still be protecting the life of the child growing in that woman's womb.

 

[Fantasea]

If a government has that right, how would you envision them enforcing it?

They managed quite well before the legalization of abortion.

 

[Fantasea]

This is what I don't understand about "moderate" pro-lifers. If you truly believe that abortion is tantamount to murder, why is it OK to kill it if the fetus was conceived during rape? The fetus wasn't the one who committed the rape.

Right on. Where is the justice in executing the child for the crime committed by its father?

 

[Howard Beale]

Yes the government has the duty to make sure you do not murder your unborn child.

And how do you envision that a government enforce their posirion?

 

[Howard Beale]

They managed quite well before the legalization of abortion.

Avoided the question.

 

[Fantasea]

Avoided the question.

Laws do not prevent anything; they punish those who disobey. The vast majority of folks are law-abiding. Few doctors will risk the economic chaos that would result from the loss of their license and jail time.

It won't be absolute, but once the doctors are out of the picture, the incidence of abortion will shrink to insignificance.

That was the situation prior to Roe v. Wade.

Is that better?

 

[UtahBill]

It won't be absolute, but once the doctors are out of the picture, the incidence of abortion will shrink to insignificance.

That was the situation prior to Roe v. Wade.

Is that better?

There were more abortions before Roe/Wade than you think. Certainly those getting or performing them did so in secrecy. They were often done at real hospitals and called D&C operations, but more often somewhere dirty and the surgical tool was a bent coat hanger.
If abortions become illegal again, watch for an increase in short "vacation trips" to Mexico, Canada, certain Caribbean islands, etc.
You cannot legislate morality. It has been tried with alcohol, and it failed.

 

[George_Washington]

OK - later GW, but you did totally avoid the question.

How did I avoid the question? I told you basically what I would do. What do you want me to do, write a 30 page paper detailing the whole deal? Here is what I would do:

1.) Pass a national law.

2.) Have the federal government over see hospitals, doctors, and abortion clinics.

3.) Have the police enforce the law.

So that's what I would do. I don't know what else you want me to say.

 

[Fantasea]

There were more abortions before Roe/Wade than you think. Certainly those getting or performing them did so in secrecy. They were often done at real hospitals and called D&C operations, but more often somewhere dirty and the surgical tool was a bent coat hanger.
If abortions become illegal again, watch for an increase in short "vacation trips" to Mexico, Canada, certain Caribbean islands, etc.
You cannot legislate morality. It has been tried with alcohol, and it failed.

No matter what is done, some will fall through the cracks. However, simply removing the "legal stamp of approval" and eliminating the "legitimate" abortion mills will reduce the number by more than a million each year.

 

[Howard Beale]

How did I avoid the question? I told you basically what I would do. What do you want me to do, write a 30 page paper detailing the whole deal? Here is what I would do:

1.) Pass a national law.

2.) Have the federal government over see hospitals, doctors, and abortion clinics.

3.) Have the police enforce the law.

So that's what I would do. I don't know what else you want me to say.

Breaking a law normally has consequences -- fines, jail time, etc. What is the punishment that you envision should be handed down to a woman who induces an abortion?

 

[Howard Beale]

Laws do not prevent anything; they punish those who disobey.

What is the punishment that you envision should be handed down to a woman who induces an abortion?

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

What exactly are you saying here? It's OK to kill innocent people, anybody, just so long as you do it in an "efficient" way?

No. Violent criminals aren't innocent by definition. Killing criminals isn't the moral issue--the consequences of killing them in our system are.

 

[Fantasea]

What is the punishment that you envision should be handed down to a woman who induces an abortion?

After abortion is no longer legal? This person has suffered enough. I see no point in casting the first stone.

However, a person who performs illegal abortions for money should be treated very harshly.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

It's absurd to punish people for either accepting or giving abortions. It's a victimless crime.

 

[jamesrage]

And how do you envision that a government enforce their posirion?

1)Ban aboriton clinics.
2)arrest anyone performing an abortion and charge them with capital murder.
3)Arrest anyone who assist anyone to get an abortion and charge them with attempted murder/ accessory to murder/attempted murder.
4)mandatory medical exames for people leaving and returning to the country,any woman who leaves the country pregnate and she comes back not pregnate, she better have a baby or else.

 

[George_Washington]

1)Ban aboriton clinics.
2)arrest anyone performing an abortion and charge them with capital murder.
3)Arrest anyone who assist anyone to get an abortion and charge them with attempted murder/ accessory to murder/attempted murder.
4)mandatory medical exames for people leaving and returning to the country,any woman who leaves the country pregnate and she comes back not pregnate, she better have a baby or else.

I might not outright ban abortion clinics because of raped women that want to have abortions. But the rest of it looks good.

 

[jamesrage]

Originally Posted by George_Washington
I might not outright ban abortion clinics because of raped women that want to have abortions. But the rest of it looks good.

A abortion even though it is murder is technically a medical procedure.So why not have hospitals with real doctors to perform them?A doctor can verify that a woman's life may be in danger or get a police report to verify the woman was indeed raped.The thing about abortion clinics is that the people who run and work in them support the murder of unborn children,more than likely every woman who walked in place would allegedly be raped or her life would be in danger with out verification her condition.

 

[Fantasea]

It's absurd to punish people for either accepting or giving abortions. It's a victimless crime.

Excluding the abortionist, every abortion produces at least two victims.

Initially, there is the dead child who is deprived of its life, thereby making it a victim. Think of it this way. Had you been aborted, you would have been deprived of your life, thereby making you a victim.

Subsequently, it has been discovered, women, some early, some later, experience, some to a lesser, some to a greater degree, depression and related mental health conditions.

Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone you know in the mental health to tell you about the condition referred to by the acronym PASS, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. It seems that many women are unable to avoid thinking about the chronological milestones the dead child would have reached. Birthdays, starting school, teen years, graduation, and so on.

Although abortion proponents deny the esistence of PASS, with the passage of time, the volume of women seeking psychiatric relief from its symptoms has been steadily on the rise.

No. Abortion is not victimless.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Excluding the abortionist, every abortion produces at least two victims.

Initially, there is the dead child who is deprived of its life, thereby making it a victim. Think of it this way. Had you been aborted, you would have been deprived of your life, thereby making you a victim.

False. It produces no victims. Lots of things die; death does not a victim make. Saying, 'had I beet aborted" is an appeal to emotions fallacy. Don't use it.

Subsequently, it has been discovered, women, some early, some later, experience, some to a lesser, some to a greater degree, depression and related mental health conditions.

Lies. That's actually quite false.

Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone you know in the mental health to tell you about the condition referred to by the acronym PASS, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. It seems that many women are unable to avoid thinking about the chronological milestones the dead child would have reached. Birthdays, starting school, teen years, graduation, and so on.

I wont take your word for it, since I Just saw a different thread on another forum that said the exact opposite, and you aren't known for "honesty" in debate, so I would rather believe that article instead of you.

No. Abortion is not victimless.

Of course it is. However, you are using emotion instead of logic.

 

[Kandahar]

Excluding the abortionist, every abortion produces at least two victims.

Initially, there is the dead child who is deprived of its life, thereby making it a victim. Think of it this way. Had you been aborted, you would have been deprived of your life, thereby making you a victim.

Similarly, if your parents had never met you would have been deprived of your life. If your great (x10)-grandfather hadn't met your great (x10)-grandmother, you would have been deprived of your life. Lots of things could have deprived you of life, but we don't try to legislate to protect every potential life. Furthermore, if you were aborted you wouldn't be around to regret having been deprived of life.

Subsequently, it has been discovered, women, some early, some later, experience, some to a lesser, some to a greater degree, depression and related mental health conditions.

Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone you know in the mental health to tell you about the condition referred to by the acronym PASS, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. It seems that many women are unable to avoid thinking about the chronological milestones the dead child would have reached. Birthdays, starting school, teen years, graduation, and so on.

Although abortion proponents deny the esistence of PASS, with the passage of time, the volume of women seeking psychiatric relief from its symptoms has been steadily on the rise.

This is true. However I wonder how much of this psychological stress is natural to having an abortion, and how much can be attributed to social factors such as the pro-life movement drilling into the minds of women that they are horrible murderers if they have an abortion.

As long as women are informed of the possible side effects, this point is moot.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Furthermore, any "psychological" problems are irrelevant as the willingless to go through them satisifies the preference of the woman. Preference satisfaction is what matters. Sometimes pain and suffering are desirable while achieving a goal.

 

[Howard Beale]

Jamesrage and GW:

4)mandatory medical exames for people leaving and returning to the country,any woman who leaves the country pregnate and she comes back not pregnate, she better have a baby or else.

Or else what?

Fantasea:

Excluding the abortionist, every abortion produces at least two victims.

Is compulsory gestation and forced parturition victimless?

And as far as the “psychological effects”, many medical procedures are followed by psychological effects. It is a common side effect of heart surgery, back surgery, birth control pills, antihistamines, and on and on.

 

[Fantasea]

Quote:
Originally posted by Fantasea
Excluding the abortionist, every abortion produces at least two victims.

Initially, there is the dead child who is deprived of its life, thereby making it a victim. Think of it this way. Had you been aborted, you would have been deprived of your life, thereby making you a victim.

False. It produces no victims. Lots of things die; death does not a victim make. Saying, 'had I beet aborted" is an appeal to emotions fallacy. Don't use it.

OK. Substitute me for you. Death does a victim make if that death has been inflicted by someone else.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fantasea
Subsequently, it has been discovered, women, some early, some later, experience, some to a lesser, some to a greater degree, depression and related mental health conditions.

Lies. That's actually quite false.

No, it's actually quite true. I did a google search on the words "post abortion stress syndrome" and 78,000 hits appeared. There's plenty of fire under all that smoke.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fantasea
Don't take my word for it. Ask anyone you know in the mental health to tell you about the condition referred to by the acronym PASS, Post Abortion Stress Syndrome. It seems that many women are unable to avoid thinking about the chronological milestones the dead child would have reached. Birthdays, starting school, teen years, graduation, and so on.

I wont take your word for it, since I Just saw a different thread on another forum that said the exact opposite, and you ar en't known for "honesty" in debate, so I would rather believe that article instead of you.

Ah, yes, liar. There are several posters who, not being able to factually refute my arguments, liberally sprinkle their posts with the word "lie" in all its forms as a means of trying to goad me into a defensive outburst. However, no one has ever been able to make the charge stick.

There is so much fact to present in defense of the pro-life position that there is never a need to lie.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fantasea
No. Abortion is not victimless.

Of course it is. However, you are using emotion instead of logic.

Here's one of the 78,000 hits on post abortion stress syndrome: http://www.aaplog.org/postabortion.htm

I imagine you will complain that the source is biased. I skimmed through a few pages of the hits and the only opposition I found was an article from MS Magazine. As one would expect, it was a denial.

 

[jamesrage]

Originally posted by Howard Beale
Or else what?

prison sentence or a possibility of a execution for murder.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

OK. Substitute me for you. Death does a victim make if that death has been inflicted by someone else.

I need not substitute anything, since you have no substantiated point. Death does not a victim make. You can kill something and still be ethicall justified. Since the fetus is not a person, there is no murder, hence there is no victim. Regardless of your brickwall tactics, you will not change this.

No, it's actually quite true. I did a google search on the words "post abortion stress syndrome" and 78,000 hits appeared. There's plenty of fire under all that smoke.
Quote:

New Study

According to most modern (as in, not out of date, ya know?) studies, you're wrong.


1. Well-designed studies have generally shown that abortion does not contribute to an increased risk of depression, Dr. Sarah Schmiege and Dr. Nancy Felipe Russo note in their report in BMJ Online First, published October 28.


2. One previous study examining these associations among women with an unwanted first pregnancy found that induced abortion was associated with a higher risk of depression than a pregnancy carried to term. But Schmiege, from the University of Colorado in Boulder, and Russo, from Arizona State University in Tempe, believe this analysis was flawed.

For their study, they identified a large group of women ages 14 to 21 in 1979 who had an unwanted pregnancy between 1970 and 1992 and for whom personal and outcome data were available. The women were interviewed over several years to examine the relation between pregnancy outcome and later depression.

The authors found that terminating compared to delivering an unwanted first pregnancy was not directly related to risk of depression. Instead, women who delivered before 1980 had a much higher risk of depression than all other groups.

These findings "directly contradict the claim that terminating an unwanted first pregnancy puts women at higher risk of subsequent depression, particularly for younger women," Schmiege and Russo contend.


***THWACK*** what's that ma'am? The sound of me bitchslapping your ignorant ass. Go peddle your drivel somewhere else girl.

Ah, yes, liar. There are several posters who, not being able to factually refute my arguments, liberally sprinkle their posts with the word "lie" in all its forms as a means of trying to goad me into a defensive outburst. However, no one has ever been able to make the charge stick.

There is so much fact to present in defense of the pro-life position that there is never a need to lie.

You are lying, and you aren't credible: four words--dogs are not primates! You have no facts--- you have irrelevant points that you force feed onto people and ask to refute when they have all of jacksquat to do with the problem.

I imagine you will complain that the source is biased. I skimmed through a few pages of the hits and the only opposition I found was an article from MS Magazine. As one would expect, it was a denial.

Reuters Medical: new study. Period. It is biased as well, and working off of out of date information. Science changes with new evidence--pro-lifers, like religious people, do not change the theory as the facts change.