He is SUCH a liar.

[misterman]

What other "reasonable suspicion" is an officer going to have to stop someone and ask for identification? Again, will a cop stop a white male and ask for their paperwork?

The reason I didn't answer your question directly is because it was incredibly ignorant. Everyone with a basic knowledge of this issue knows what "reasonable suspicion" means. But fine. You want an answer to your question? Here:

What is Reasonable Suspicion?

The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and its protections extended to brief investigatory stops of persons or vehicle falling short of arrest. A reasonable suspicion determination is made by the totality of the circumstances of each case to see whether the detaining officer had a particularized and objective basis for suspecting legal wrongdoing. Past cases have recognized reasonable suspicion was a somewhat abstract notion – a deliberate intent to avoid a neat set of legal rules. Rather than viewing incidents in isolation, the proper test is to look at factors as a whole to determine if there is reasonable suspicion.

A police officer can conduct an investigative stop and briefly detain and question a person for investigative purposes when the officer has a reasonable suspicion supported by articulable facts. Subsequent to a valid Terry stop, a police officer can search the individual for weapons where the officer has reason to believe the person is armed and dangerous. In assessing whether the suspect is armed, the officer doesn’t have to be absolutely certain; the issue is whether a reasonably prudent person in the circumstances would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger.

What is Reasonable Suspicion?

There is a long list of legal cases saying that race cannot be used as reasonable suspicion, i.e. racial profiling. Race can only be used if a specific person is being sought. Stopping every Mexican-looking guy on the street to ask for immigration papers would clearly be unconstitutional. If it happens, it will be stopped by the courts. But the AZ law does not authorize it to happen.

 

[misterman]

It affects me because I am American, and I have a responsibility to know what is happening to our nation (as do you and every other citizen). Racial profiling is not illegal, there have been several attempts (starting in the 70's) to pass an equal rights amendment, but it has failed each time (as the amendment should).

Why are you talking about the Equal Rights Amendment? You realize that has nothing to do with race, right?

And you realize that there are already racial protections in our Constitution, right?

And that "reasonable suspicion" is based on the Bill of Rights, right?

And that racial profiling has generally been declared illegal by the courts, right?

 

[lizzie]

What other "reasonable suspicion" is an officer going to have to stop someone and ask for identification? Again, will a cop stop a white male and ask for their paperwork?

They won't stop someone for the purposes of asking for identification. The person who will be asked to show identification or documentation will be someone who is already suspected of commiting something else that is subject to law enforcement (ie speeding, drunken driving, appearances of commission of a crime, etc). This law does not allow for randomly or selectively asking for proof of citizenship or legal residence.

 

[Boo Radley]

They won't stop someone for the purposes of asking for identification. The person who will be asked to show identification or documentation will be someone who is already suspected of commiting something else that is subject to law enforcement (ie speeding, drunken driving, appearances of commission of a crime, etc). This law does not allow for randomly or selectively asking for proof of citizenship or legal residence.

What type of crime? Jay walking? I remember when I was young, I got stopped every time I moved into a new town. Some reason was always fabricated, but when I checkout, nothing was given, not even a warning. Why? Because I did nothing to warrant the stopping. So, I suggest this distinction is meaningless.

 

[misterman]

What type of crime? Jay walking? I remember when I was young, I got stopped every time I moved into a new town. Some reason was always fabricated, but when I checkout, nothing was given, not even a warning. Why? Because I did nothing to warrant the stopping. So, I suggest this distinction is meaningless.

Yes, obviously this can happen. But it is illegal. If it happens alot - or even once - in Arizona, you can bet there will be a huge lawsuit, and that could put alot of scrutiny on the state to stop it, or even overturn the law.

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with this law. I agree that it is wide open for abuse. But abuse isn't built into the law.

 

[Captain Rockstar]

Obviously you don't know what is going on in our nation. Racial profiling is indeed illegal just like it is illegal to cross our borders without permission. For some reason you don't want immigration laws enforced and the question is why?

You just don't get it! As I said before, I am totally for cracking down on illegal immigration. Of course porous borders are a bad thing. This bill is NOT the way to fix it, however. What law says that racial profiling is illegal?? Post it, and you will change my mind about the legality of the law.

 

[Conservative]

You just don't get it! As I said before, I am totally for cracking down on illegal immigration. Of course porous borders are a bad thing. This bill is NOT the way to fix it, however. What law says that racial profiling is illegal?? Post it, and you will change my mind about the legality of the law.

Read the bill

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Racial profiling is illegal and anyone who is racial profiled has a law suit and I would love to be a relative

 

[Captain Rockstar]

They won't stop someone for the purposes of asking for identification. The person who will be asked to show identification or documentation will be someone who is already suspected of commiting something else that is subject to law enforcement (ie speeding, drunken driving, appearances of commission of a crime, etc). This law does not allow for randomly or selectively asking for proof of citizenship or legal residence.

Read the bill. There is nothing in the language of the bill that stipulates the only people asked for identification "will be someone who is already suspected of committing...something that is subject to law enforcement." The bill DOES talk about "reasonable suspicion." Besides, people are already asked for their identification (enough to prove their immigration/legality status) during checkpoints, etc.

 

[Captain Rockstar]

Read the bill

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Racial profiling is illegal and anyone who is racial profiled has a law suit and I would love to be a relative

Lines 20-26 (Yes, I have read the bill).

 

[Captain Rockstar]

No where in the bill are the words "racial profiling" written

 

[Conservative]

Lines 20-26 (Yes, I have read the bill).

Ever been stopped at a sobriety checkpoint? Feel threatened there? What ID are you required to show?

This is a bs argument and a diversion from reality. As stated, I want to be a relative of anyone racially profiled in this country.

 

[Conservative]

No where in the bill are the words "racial profiling" written

There doesn't have to be, the U.S. Law makes racial profiling illegal. The Arizona law mirrors the U.S. Law.

 

[Captain Rockstar]

Lines 20-26 (Yes, I have read the bill).

The reason I didn't answer your question directly is because it was incredibly ignorant. Everyone with a basic knowledge of this issue knows what "reasonable suspicion" means. But fine. You want an answer to your question? Here:



What is Reasonable Suspicion?

There is a long list of legal cases saying that race cannot be used as reasonable suspicion, i.e. racial profiling. Race can only be used if a specific person is being sought. Stopping every Mexican-looking guy on the street to ask for immigration papers would clearly be unconstitutional. If it happens, it will be stopped by the courts. But the AZ law does not authorize it to happen.

From your document:

"Past cases have recognized reasonable suspicion was a somewhat abstract notion – a deliberate intent to avoid a neat set of legal rules..."
Also from the source...
"a police officer can search the individual for weapons where the officer has reason to believe the person is armed and dangerous."
It is a sad fact, but most illegal immigrants (if not all) in Arizona are hispanic. Just like if an officer has reason to believe a person is armed and dangerous because he sees a butt of a pistol sticking out of his pocket, an officer has reasonable suspicion that a person is hispanic (which most if not all illegal immigrants in Mexico are) based on skin color. That's it. Your source didn't work for ya.

 

[Conservative]

From your document:

"Past cases have recognized reasonable suspicion was a somewhat abstract notion – a deliberate intent to avoid a neat set of legal rules..."
Also from the source...
"a police officer can search the individual for weapons where the officer has reason to believe the person is armed and dangerous."
It is a sad fact, but most illegal immigrants (if not all) in Arizona are hispanic. Just like if an officer has reason to believe a person is armed and dangerous because he sees a butt of a pistol sticking out of his pocket, an officer has reasonable suspicion that a person is hispanic (which most if not all illegal immigrants in Mexico are) based on skin color. That's it. Your source didn't work for ya.

Then sue and let the court decide the penalties.

 

[Captain Rockstar]

There doesn't have to be, the U.S. Law makes racial profiling illegal. The Arizona law mirrors the U.S. Law.

"The Institute on Race and Poverty defines racial profiling as "the practice of targeting people for police or security stops based on their race or ethnicity in the belief that certain ethnic groups may be more likely to commit a particular crime."
Law Enforcement - Racial Profiling

Hispanics are more likely to cross the border illegally than Asians. Or Native Americans. Or caucasians.

Again what law/supreme court denies racial profiling?
Google it, I just did. I couldn't find anything that said it was illegal...its one of the hottest ACLU topics today (which means its not illegal). The article on the following link might clear some "misconceptions" up.
Racial Profiling in an Age of Terrorism

 

[Captain Rockstar]

Essentially, we are beating a dead horse with a stick here. I honestly think that there is nothing else I have to say on this law. I've told you how I feel, you've told me how you feel. Enough

 

[Conservative]

"The Institute on Race and Poverty defines racial profiling as "the practice of targeting people for police or security stops based on their race or ethnicity in the belief that certain ethnic groups may be more likely to commit a particular crime."
Law Enforcement - Racial Profiling

Hispanics are more likely to cross the border illegally than Asians. Or Native Americans. Or caucasians.

Again what law/supreme court denies racial profiling?
Google it, I just did. I couldn't find anything that said it was illegal...its one of the hottest ACLU topics today (which means its not illegal). The article on the following link might clear some "misconceptions" up.
Racial Profiling in an Age of Terrorism

Looks to me like it is in the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution where there is equal protection under the law.

 

[Conservative]

Essentially, we are beating a dead horse with a stick here. I honestly think that there is nothing else I have to say on this law. I've told you how I feel, you've told me how you feel. Enough

This is probably going to go to the Supreme Court and it is about time.

 

[misterman]

From your document:

"Past cases have recognized reasonable suspicion was a somewhat abstract notion – a deliberate intent to avoid a neat set of legal rules..."
Also from the source...
"a police officer can search the individual for weapons where the officer has reason to believe the person is armed and dangerous."
It is a sad fact, but most illegal immigrants (if not all) in Arizona are hispanic. Just like if an officer has reason to believe a person is armed and dangerous because he sees a butt of a pistol sticking out of his pocket, an officer has reasonable suspicion that a person is hispanic (which most if not all illegal immigrants in Mexico are) based on skin color. That's it. Your source didn't work for ya.

Arizona law must comply with the Constitution. If it doesn't, someone will sue.