Hamas Leaders Cite October 7 Massacre as Impetus for International Support for Palestinian Nation

[lwf]

If Britain hadn’t negotiated with “terrorists” the Troubles would still be going on today.

If apartheid South Africa hadn’t begrudgingly negotiated with “terrorists” there wouldn’t be much left of South Africa nowadays.

Israel being desperately to keep hold of its neighbors’ land in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, and Syria, in violation of international law, is not an excuse.

If only the political landscape Jerusalem faces today were the same as the one London faced in the late 20th century.

 

[lwf]

How many tanks does Hamas have?

How many planes does Hamas have?

How many nuclear weapons does Hamas have?

The pretense Israel’s “existence” is in danger is nonsensical.

The pretense that you need tanks, planes, and nuclear weapons to threaten the existence of a nation like Israel is naive.

 

[Tigerace117]

If only the political landscape Jerusalem faces today were the same as the one London faced in the late 20th century.

Once again, if Britain hadn’t “negotiated with terrorists” the PIRA and INLA— which had demonstrated a capable to knock British Army helicopters out of the air, and which the British and their “Loyalist” allies hadn’t come close to militarily defeated in thirty years of trying-

would simply have continued striking London and other such cities, causing massive infrastructural damage in the process.

 

[Tigerace117]

The pretense that you need tanks, planes, and nuclear weapons to threaten the existence of a nation like Israel is naive.

You absolutely do need tanks and planes if you are going to take and hold core foreign territory from a nation that has them in large numbers.

Hamas has no way to “destroy Israel” in the first place.

 

[lwf]

You absolutely do need tanks and planes if you are going to take and hold core foreign territory from a nation that has them in large numbers.

Hamas has no way to “destroy Israel” in the first place.

Do you think Hamas is stupid? You underestimate the effectiveness of terrorism. There is a reason it continues to be used in spite of the toll it takes on the terrorists.

The great emigration: Israel sees an unprecedented number leave the country​

Hamas is on public record citing THIS VERY THING as the entire strategy behind their terror attacks against Israeli civilians. This is the mission upon which they were founded. To slowly and steadily murder Jews in an endless jihad until every last Israeli gets fed up with burying their children and abandons the land of Israel for safer cities in the West in a mass emigration, after which the Palestinians can move in unopposed under the authority of Hamas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter

They don't need tanks and planes as long as they have the power to terrorize innocent Jews.

 

[Tigerace117]

Do you think Hamas is stupid? You underestimate the effectiveness of terrorism. There is a reason it continues to be used in spite of the toll it takes on the terrorists.

The great emigration: Israel sees an unprecedented number leave the country​

Hamas is on public record citing THIS VERY THING as the entire strategy behind their terror attacks against Israeli civilians. This is the mission upon which they were founded. To slowly and steadily murder Jews in an endless jihad until every last Israeli gets fed up with burying their children and abandons the land of Israel for safer cities in the West in a mass emigration, after which the Palestinians can move in unopposed under the authority of Hamas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Hamas_charter

They don't need tanks and planes as long as they have the power to terrorize innocent Jews.

That sounds like entirely the fault of the war criminals running Israel, who decided violating international law and stealing more land from their neighbors was more important than making their people feel safe

It’s also still nonsensical, as not a single country has ever been destroyed by emigration

 

[lwf]

That sounds like entirely the fault of the war criminals running Israel, who decided violating international law and stealing more land from their neighbors was more important than making their people feel safe

It’s also still nonsensical, as not a single country has ever been destroyed by emigration

And yet the sources speak for themselves.

 

[Tigerace117]

And yet the sources speak for themselves.

The sources show that no nation has ever been destroyed by emigration, and pretending, therefore, that that is a serious, existential threat is nonsensical

It’s also a problem that easily could have been resolved by Israel just not committing war crimes en masse and violating international law.

 

[lwf]

The sources show that no nation has ever been destroyed by emigration, and pretending, therefore, that that is a serious, existential threat is nonsensical

It’s also a problem that easily could have been resolved by Israel just not committing war crimes en masse and violating international law.

I mean, it's so obvious, right? If only you ran the world. You would bring simple common sense back to the rest of us lunatics and everything could function like a well-oiled machine...

 

[Tigerace117]

I mean, it's so obvious, right? If only you ran the world. You would bring simple common sense back to the rest of us lunatics and everything could function like a well-oiled machine...

Gee dude, “don’t mass murder your neighbors and steal their land because you think being Jewish entitles you to it” is a pretty basic idea.

 

[markdc]

Hamas Leaders Cite October 7 Massacre as Impetus for International Support for Palestinian Nation


In an Al-Jazeera interview over the weekend, Senior Hamas political bureau member Ghazi Hamad openly credited the October 7 terrorist attack with forcing Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state, declaring that “the initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the 'fruits of October 7th.'"

Here is his actual quote:

"The powerful blow that was delivered to Israel on October 7 has yielded three very important historic achievements. First of all, it brought the Palestinian cause back [to center stage]. Why are all these countries recognizing Palestine now? Had any country dared to recognize the state of Palestine, prior to October 7? The overall outcome of October 7 forced the world to open its eyes to the Palestinian cause, and to act forcefully in this respect. [They recognize now] that the Palestinian people deserve freedom and their own state."

"The second thing is that the whole world believed that the occupation state is a beautiful democratic country and suffering from oppression and persecution. Today, I believe that the whole world has become convinced [otherwise], and that the mask has fallen from Israel's face. The whole world is acting against Israel. The rallies and festivals in America, Britain, France, and Germany talk about the genocide. Who would have thought that the PM of the occupation state would become wanted by the ICC, and so would the [IDF] Chief of Staff. Israel is now accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing. All of those things were revealed about Israel."

"The third thing is that people who thought that defeating Israel is difficult [realized] today that it is very easy. Today, through October 7, we proved that defeating Israel is not as difficult as people had thought."


There you have it. The end goal of Hamas. The reason they started this war in the first place. Probably the worst "I told you so" I've ever had the misfortune of delivering.

What a sad world we live in where recognizing a terrorist organization and giving in to its demands is considered worth the extra clicks you can get to bring traffic to your site, or the extra votes you can gin up in your home country, simply by amplifying the word "genocide" on social media.

IMO, Hamas is lower than camel dung, but speaking of Oct. 7, I’m interested in knowing how the intelligence agency (Mossad) that found Adolf ****ing Eichmann in some shithole town in Argentina couldn’t see Hamas’ attack coming.

Mark

 

[stevecanuck]

MSN

History’s tragedies are not always found in what happened. Sometimes they lie in what could have been — visions abandoned, possibilities squandered, peace betrayed not by inevitability, but by choice.

Nowhere is that clearer than in Gaza.

In 2005 , Israel undertook an extraordinary political and moral gamble. Under the Disengagement Plan , conceived by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon , himself a former general and champion of settlements in the region, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Every soldier, every settler, every last trace of Israeli presence was removed. Twenty-one Jewish communities were dismantled. Thousands of citizens were evacuated from their homes by their own army. Synagogues were shuttered, cemeteries were relocated, and millions of dollars in greenhouses and agricultural infrastructure were left behind, intact, in a gesture of goodwill.

It was a rupture in Zionism’s own narrative. Israel voluntarily relinquished territory acquired in war, territory with strategic, ideological, and religious significance, without any reciprocal agreement. In doing so, it tested its own democratic resilience by pitting its army against its own civilians for the sake of peace.

And it was peace that was on offer. The message to the Palestinians, to the Arab world, to the international community, was unambiguous: We are leaving. Show us what you can build.

Had the Palestinian leadership taken up that challenge, had it chosen governance over grievance, nation-building over nihilism, the rule of law over the rule of Kalashnikovs, the consequences could have been historic. A stable, demilitarized, self-governed Gaza would have transformed the landscape of Israeli politics. It would have provided the proof of concept that the Israeli public, weary and cynical after the carnage of the Second Intifada , desperately needed: that withdrawal works, that peace is possible, that Palestinian sovereignty need not come at the expense of Israeli lives.

 

[stevecanuck]

It would have strengthened the hand of moderates and pragmatists in Israel. It would have dealt a mortal blow to the argument of Israel’s right-wing politicians that any land given would only become a base for terror. It would have revived the Oslo-era hope that coexistence was not merely a slogan, but a strategy. Pressure would have mounted, internally, democratically, and morally, for Israel to take the next step and negotiate a final-status agreement over the West Bank and East Jerusalem. A two-state solution, long the darling of the diplomatic set, could have become not just desirable, but inevitable.

Instead, Gaza became a dystopia. And that outcome was not imposed on the Palestinians. It was chosen, freely, consciously, and with open eyes.

Soon after disengagement, Gaza fell under the control of Hamas, a genocidal Islamist organization whose charter has called for the annihilation of Israel and the murder of Jews. Not only did Hamas win 7 of 10 councils in the Gaza strip in January 2005, they also won 74 out of 132 contested seats in the 2006 Palestinian Legislative Council elections (in both the West Bank and Gaza) held just under 6 months after disengagement was completed.

Once in power, Hamas executed its rivals , purged dissent, and transformed Gaza into a theocratic fortress. The ballot box vanished. Freedom of speech was extinguished . Billions in foreign aid were funnelled into terrorism , not infrastructure. Schools became indoctrination centres . Hospitals were used to store weapons . Civilians were turned into human shields in a perverse strategy of deterrence by child sacrifice.


And over the border, Israelis watched. And learned.

They learned that disengagement did not bring security. It brought rockets, thousands of them, raining down on Sderot, Ashkelon, and Be’er Sheva. They learned that ceding territory did not lead to normalization, but to escalation. They learned that the problem was not the occupation of Gaza, because there was no occupation. There was only jihad.

And so, a generation of Israelis changed its mind.

 

[stevecanuck]

The Israeli left, once dominant, crumbled. Labour, which signed Oslo, all but disappeared. Meretz, a once prominent party founded to push explicitly for a two-state solution faded into irrelevance and did not win a single seat in the most recent Israeli elections. Kadima, the centrist party that led disengagement, dissolved.

As of early June, only 21 per cent of Israelis believed that a peaceful coexistence between a future Palestinian state and Israel is even possible. From center-left to far-right, the majority of Israelis believe that another Gaza is intolerable — that a Palestinian state in the West Bank, without ironclad security guarantees and a total transformation of Palestinian political culture, would be madness. Most Israelis have no appetite for another experiment.


And yet, the western left remains frozen in time.

Figures like Mark Carney continue to speak of Palestinian statehood as if the Gaza catastrophe never happened. He recently stated that he supports such a state “if certain conditions are met.” But the most basic condition, demonstrated capacity for peaceful self-governance, has already been tested. And it failed. And it failed because the majority of Palestinians chose failure.

This is not a policy failure. It is a moral one.

But to admit that would require western liberals to abandon the illusion that animates so much of their worldview: that all violence is reactive, that the “oppressed” are never accountable, that Palestinian terror is only ever the product of Israeli action, rather than Palestinian will.

And so, western liberals cling to the wreckage of the two-state solution like a theology, as if Hamas is a fringe group and the Gaza blockade was the source or motivation of Gazan terrorism and the thousands of rockets launched from the strip towards Israeli civilian centres, not the other way around. They behave in such a way as to suggest that Israel’s disengagement in the region didn’t go far enough. And If only Israel would “show good faith,” things might change.

It’s all a lie.

 

[stevecanuck]

The truth is that Gaza was not a tragedy. It was a test. And the Gazans failed it, not because they were denied the tools of statehood, but because when given them, they used those tools to wage war and spread hate. That failure lies with them. And until they are held to account for it, there will be no peace.

Israelis understand this. That is why they no longer believe in the dream of two states. It did not die in the Knesset. It died in Sderot. It died in the tunnels of Khan Yunis. It died in the ashes of October 7.

And still, the West refuses to look.

Because to do so would mean conceding that sovereignty cannot be gifted. That peace cannot be wished into existence. That sometimes, people make bad choices for which they must bear responsibility.

Until that reckoning comes, the liberal establishment will keep lecturing Israelis on morality from a thousand miles away, while others bury the bodies their fantasies produce.

National Post

 

[Lycanthrope]

In other words, you have no idea.

No, it should be clear to you by now that what Israel is doing in Gaza is exactly what terrorist Hamas hoped for - indiscriminate destruction, killing, and starvation.

 

[stevecanuck]

Were Hamas terrorists counting on Israel to respond the way it has?

Absolutely 100%

The founding charter of Hamas (acronym for 'The Islamic Resistance Movement') includes 330 direct references to Islam and quotes from scripture, such as, "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it", "The Prophet is it's example and the Qur'an is it's constitution," and "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say 'Oh Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'"

As difficult as it may be to believe, the razing of Gaza is precisely what Hamas expected and wanted as a consequence of slaughtering over 1200 people at point-blank range and taking 254 hostages. It would be absurd to think that Hamas did not know that Israel would again respond militarily exactly as it had always done, and that multitudes of Gazan civilians behind whom Hamas cowards always hide would be killed. They had to know that the hospitals and schools under which they built their terrorist tunnel network would be destroyed. A massive, deadly response by Israel was far too predictable for it not to have been part of Hamas' plan.

To the civilized mind, this approach seems unconscionably barbaric and self-destructive, but to strictly observant Muslims who see this life as nothing more than a probationary period for admittance to paradise, it makes perfect sense. The Qur'an teaches them - "(2:154) Do not consider those who are slain for the cause of Allah to be dead. They are alive but you are unaware of them", and "(9:111) Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allah's Cause, so they kill and are killed." Every civilian death creates another martyr in the holy cause of destroying Israel while Hamas and international demonstrators cry crocodile tears and shout 'genocide' for the benefit of Western cameras. But, behind the curtain, their religious beliefs allow them to rationalize that the civilians they conscript as propaganda fodder will live forever in paradise. Win-win.

Gaza and the lives of the people who live there, are a price that Hamas is more than willing to pay for the greater purpose of destroying Israel. The 'Western' mind simply can't, or won't, grasp this concept.

 

[lwf]

No, it should be clear to you by now that what Israel is doing in Gaza is exactly what terrorist Hamas hoped for - indiscriminate destruction, killing, and starvation.

What Hamas hoped for was Option A: for Israel to accede to all of Hamas' demands, release all Hamas prisoners, and legitimize Hamas' control of Gaza as a recognized Palestinian state under its authority. Hamas' plan B was the option that Israel chose instead, which also benefits Hamas to some degree, and more importantly hurts Israel's standing on the world stage. What is unclear is what third option Israel may have had that it could have taken.

 

[bomberfox]

MSN

History’s tragedies are not always found in what happened. Sometimes they lie in what could have been — visions abandoned, possibilities squandered, peace betrayed not by inevitability, but by choice.

Nowhere is that clearer than in Gaza.

In 2005 , Israel undertook an extraordinary political and moral gamble. Under the Disengagement Plan , conceived by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon , himself a former general and champion of settlements in the region, Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip. Every soldier, every settler, every last trace of Israeli presence was removed. Twenty-one Jewish communities were dismantled. Thousands of citizens were evacuated from their homes by their own army. Synagogues were shuttered, cemeteries were relocated, and millions of dollars in greenhouses and agricultural infrastructure were left behind, intact, in a gesture of goodwill.

It was a rupture in Zionism’s own narrative. Israel voluntarily relinquished territory acquired in war, territory with strategic, ideological, and religious significance, without any reciprocal agreement. In doing so, it tested its own democratic resilience by pitting its army against its own civilians for the sake of peace.

And it was peace that was on offer. The message to the Palestinians, to the Arab world, to the international community, was unambiguous: We are leaving. Show us what you can build.

Had the Palestinian leadership taken up that challenge, had it chosen governance over grievance, nation-building over nihilism, the rule of law over the rule of Kalashnikovs, the consequences could have been historic. A stable, demilitarized, self-governed Gaza would have transformed the landscape of Israeli politics. It would have provided the proof of concept that the Israeli public, weary and cynical after the carnage of the Second Intifada , desperately needed: that withdrawal works, that peace is possible, that Palestinian sovereignty need not come at the expense of Israeli lives.

Actually what was before oct 7th was more thriving communities. Hamas did indeed take a stupid gamble here.

 

[bomberfox]

Correct. HAMAS was instead given straight up autonomy, freely, in 2005. Israel went through the process of using its own security forces to forcibly remove its own citizens - even its dead - to give Gaza over to the Palestinians to rule themselves. It was the great experiment, pushed by the peaceniks and others who believed that granting the Palestinians self-rule and land would produce peace.

The world got to see what it would look like if we had a Palestinian state.

A palestinian state is going to have to be in the cards for there to even be a future. A state living next to people who dont have any self determination will lead to more bloodshed. We’ve seen this before in south africa whether or not one thinks israel is an apartheid state. Israel does not have the cards it once had.

 

[bomberfox]

The Israeli left, once dominant, crumbled. Labour, which signed Oslo, all but disappeared. Meretz, a once prominent party founded to push explicitly for a two-state solution faded into irrelevance and did not win a single seat in the most recent Israeli elections. Kadima, the centrist party that led disengagement, dissolved.

As of early June, only 21 per cent of Israelis believed that a peaceful coexistence between a future Palestinian state and Israel is even possible. From center-left to far-right, the majority of Israelis believe that another Gaza is intolerable — that a Palestinian state in the West Bank, without ironclad security guarantees and a total transformation of Palestinian political culture, would be madness. Most Israelis have no appetite for another experiment.


And yet, the western left remains frozen in time.

Figures like Mark Carney continue to speak of Palestinian statehood as if the Gaza catastrophe never happened. He recently stated that he supports such a state “if certain conditions are met.” But the most basic condition, demonstrated capacity for peaceful self-governance, has already been tested. And it failed. And it failed because the majority of Palestinians chose failure.

This is not a policy failure. It is a moral one.

But to admit that would require western liberals to abandon the illusion that animates so much of their worldview: that all violence is reactive, that the “oppressed” are never accountable, that Palestinian terror is only ever the product of Israeli action, rather than Palestinian will.

And so, western liberals cling to the wreckage of the two-state solution like a theology, as if Hamas is a fringe group and the Gaza blockade was the source or motivation of Gazan terrorism and the thousands of rockets launched from the strip towards Israeli civilian centres, not the other way around. They behave in such a way as to suggest that Israel’s disengagement in the region didn’t go far enough. And If only Israel would “show good faith,” things might change.

It’s all a lie.

Its either two state, genocide, or continuous tit for tat. You can rah rah rah all you like but thats the reality. The PA did not commit oct 7th.

 

[lwf]

A palestinian state is going to have to be in the cards for there to even be a future. A state living next to people who dont have any self determination will lead to more bloodshed. We’ve seen this before in south africa whether or not one thinks israel is an apartheid state.

A Palestinian state, while certainly not ideal, is a fine compromise to avoid further bloodshed. But terrorists should have zero right to self-determination. Therefore, there cannot and should never be a Palestinian state that is governed by Hamas.

Hamas' removal from power, dissolution, capture and prosecution of any members who have engaged in terrorism, and full disarmament should precede any Palestinian-run state in Gaza. Or else Israel will be right back to where it is today in a generation or two.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Gaza and the lives of the people who live there, are a price that Hamas is more than willing to pay for the greater purpose of destroying Israel. The 'Western' mind simply can't, or won't, grasp this concept.

So then the question becomes, why would Israel give Hamas exactly what it wanted?

 

[Mika-El]

Hamas Leaders Cite October 7 Massacre as Impetus for International Support for Palestinian Nation


In an Al-Jazeera interview over the weekend, Senior Hamas political bureau member Ghazi Hamad openly credited the October 7 terrorist attack with forcing Western nations to recognize a Palestinian state, declaring that “the initiative by several countries to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the 'fruits of October 7th.'"

Here is his actual quote:

"The powerful blow that was delivered to Israel on October 7 has yielded three very important historic achievements. First of all, it brought the Palestinian cause back [to center stage]. Why are all these countries recognizing Palestine now? Had any country dared to recognize the state of Palestine, prior to October 7? The overall outcome of October 7 forced the world to open its eyes to the Palestinian cause, and to act forcefully in this respect. [They recognize now] that the Palestinian people deserve freedom and their own state."

"The second thing is that the whole world believed that the occupation state is a beautiful democratic country and suffering from oppression and persecution. Today, I believe that the whole world has become convinced [otherwise], and that the mask has fallen from Israel's face. The whole world is acting against Israel. The rallies and festivals in America, Britain, France, and Germany talk about the genocide. Who would have thought that the PM of the occupation state would become wanted by the ICC, and so would the [IDF] Chief of Staff. Israel is now accused of genocide and ethnic cleansing. All of those things were revealed about Israel."

"The third thing is that people who thought that defeating Israel is difficult [realized] today that it is very easy. Today, through October 7, we proved that defeating Israel is not as difficult as people had thought."


There you have it. The end goal of Hamas. The reason they started this war in the first place. Probably the worst "I told you so" I've ever had the misfortune of delivering.

What a sad world we live in where recognizing a terrorist organization and giving in to its demands is considered worth the extra clicks you can get to bring traffic to your site, or the extra votes you can gin up in your home country, simply by amplifying the word "genocide" on social media.

I think his first name is accurate.

 

[bomberfox]

A Palestinian state, while certainly not ideal, is a fine compromise to avoid further bloodshed. But terrorists should have zero right to self-determination. Therefore, there cannot and should never be a Palestinian state that is governed by Hamas.

Hamas' removal from power, dissolution, capture and prosecution of any members who have engaged in terrorism, and full disarmament should precede any Palestinian-run state in Gaza. Or else Israel will be right back to where it is today in a generation or two.

That is the same that is being required by Carney.