Gun Ownership Is A Right

[DebateChallenge]

Gun Ownership Is A Right In The USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqGBOt32NM

 

[Kal'Stang]

Those that support the 2nd Amendment already know this. Those that do not support the 2nd amendment don't care and probably won't watch your video. Definitely won't since its from PragerU.

 

[JLee1977]

I agree that the founding father intended it to be just that. However today we live with over 22,000 firearm related laws on the books, many of which restrict, and outright ban ownership of of certain firearms and accessories from people who aren't the problem. We live with a background check system where would be purchasers are prohibited until the government says your are not. Some states have adopted red flag law where due process is ignored, and guns are taken away just from someone's claim that your are a danger to yourself or others.

 

[ThoughtEx.]

Gun Ownership Is A Right In The USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqGBOt32NM

Unless a police officer is in fear of his life...

Then it's a death sentence.

Don't even have to actually have a gun. Just the possibility of a gun is scary enough for your right to be forfeit.

So is it really a right? If an agent of the state can and will kill you for it for an excuse as frail as I was scared?

But hey, you keep thinking you have rights all you want just because you can buy a gun. Whole point of the second is to protect yourself from the the government and it's agents should you fear for your life.

Guess the NRA is to busy fear mongering everyone into buying guns before this or that model gets banned by the evil liberals to address actual rights violations. Or how easy it is for a gun owner to die because an agent of the state was afraid.

 

[TurtleDude]

Unless a police officer is in fear of his life...

Then it's a death sentence.

Don't even have to actually have a gun. Just the possibility of a gun is scary enough for your right to be forfeit.

So is it really a right? If an agent of the state can and will kill you for it for an excuse as frail as I was scared?

But hey, you keep thinking you have rights all you want just because you can buy a gun. Whole point of the second is to protect yourself from the the government and it's agents should you fear for your life.

Guess the NRA is to busy fear mongering everyone into buying guns before this or that model gets banned by the evil liberals to address actual rights violations. Or how easy it is for a gun owner to die because an agent of the state was afraid.

why do you manage to spew your hate for the NRA into so many threads?

 

[ThoughtEx.]

why do you manage to spew your hate for the NRA into so many threads?

Because there are real violations of people's rights happening everyday, and all they care about is sales.

We've been over this.

They are part of the problem. They distract from real problems.

 

[spud_meister]

Gun Ownership Is A Right In The USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEqGBOt32NM

Do you believe in any restrictions for that right?

 

[DebateChallenge]

Unless a police officer is in fear of his life...

Then it's a death sentence.

Don't even have to actually have a gun. Just the possibility of a gun is scary enough for your right to be forfeit.

So is it really a right? If an agent of the state can and will kill you for it for an excuse as frail as I was scared?

But hey, you keep thinking you have rights all you want just because you can buy a gun. Whole point of the second is to protect yourself from the the government and it's agents should you fear for your life.

Guess the NRA is to busy fear mongering everyone into buying guns before this or that model gets banned by the evil liberals to address actual rights violations. Or how easy it is for a gun owner to die because an agent of the state was afraid.

Police officers should not be allowed to do what you describe but that is better discussed in the Law And Order folder.

 

[DebateChallenge]

Do you believe in any restrictions for that right?

I believe in some restrictions on how guns are used but as for owning guns, gun ownership should be no more restricted than car or computer ownership.

 

[spud_meister]

I believe in some restrictions on how guns are used but as for owning guns, gun ownership should be no more restricted than car or computer ownership.

Including minors and felons?

 

[ThoughtEx.]

Police officers should not be allowed to do what you describe but that is better discussed in the Law And Order folder.

Oh it is, is it?

I consider it a rights issue. A 2nd Amendment issue.

How else would you describe government agents killing a person just on the suspicion of having a gun. A gun that person is entitled to have under the second amendment?

But let's not focus on that, them libtards is the real danger with their background checks...

That's propaganda for gun sales. Pure and Simple. while Rights advocates such as yourself turn a blind eye while claiming to be these uber constitutionals.

Walk the walk. I'm tired of the talk.

 

[TurtleDude]

Oh it is, is it?

I consider it a rights issue. A 2nd Amendment issue.

How else would you describe government agents killing a person just on the suspicion of having a gun. A gun that person is entitled to have under the second amendment?

But let's not focus on that, them libtards is the real danger with their background checks...

That's propaganda for gun sales. Pure and Simple. while Rights advocates such as yourself turn a blind eye while claiming to be these uber constitutionals.

Walk the walk. I'm tired of the talk.

"libtards" as you call them want far more than the placebo known as background checks

 

[ThoughtEx.]

"libtards" as you call them want far more than the placebo known as background checks

maybe a few crazies, but not the majority, and you damn well know it...

 

[TurtleDude]

maybe a few crazies, but not the majority, and you damn well know it...

lets see

Feinstein-one of the most senior senators from the most important democrat run state wanted to confiscate "assault weapons"

Chuck Schumer-senior senator from the second most important Democrat run state, has constantly called for all sorts of gun bans

California-passed a law trying to confiscate normal capacity magazines

CT and Maryland, and New Jersey have banned all sorts of guns-all of those are passed by Democrats

Democrats schemed to derail a pro gun bill by adding improperly, an amendment that the ATF ruled banned private citizens from being able to purchase fully auto carbines made after May 19, 1986 (another reason why the Chevron case needs to be overturned)

Democrats in Oregon are trying to limit honest citizens from buying more than 20 rounds of ammo. Sort of hard to compete in a 100 bird skeet tournament or trap event with that crap

 

[ThoughtEx.]

lets see

Feinstein-one of the most senior senators from the most important democrat run state wanted to confiscate "assault weapons"

Chuck Schumer-senior senator from the second most important Democrat run state, has constantly called for all sorts of gun bans

California-passed a law trying to confiscate normal capacity magazines

CT and Maryland, and New Jersey have banned all sorts of guns-all of those are passed by Democrats

Democrats schemed to derail a pro gun bill by adding improperly, an amendment that the ATF ruled banned private citizens from being able to purchase fully auto carbines made after May 19, 1986 (another reason why the Chevron case needs to be overturned)

Democrats in Oregon are trying to limit honest citizens from buying more than 20 rounds of ammo. Sort of hard to compete in a 100 bird skeet tournament or trap event with that crap

Ok, and that means we should let the cops execute people on the suspicion of having a gun. You're trying to go off on a tangent from the point I am making to distract from the fact the NRA are ignoring real problems to fight those crazy libtard dems who want to take your guns yet never seem to gain any kind of support outside of people pissed off at the NRA for doing exactly what you're trying to do right now...

And you damn well know it

 

[TurtleDude]

Ok, and that means we should let the cops execute people on the suspicion of having a gun. You're trying to go off on a tangent from the point I am making to distract from the fact the NRA are ignoring real problems to fight those crazy libtard dems who want to take your guns yet never seem to gain any kind of support outside of people pissed off at the NRA for doing exactly what you're trying to do right now...

And you damn well know it

you are all over the place-I am talking about how democrat leaders are trying to restrict and infringe on our rights and you are going off about cops killing people. I get the fact that you have had a seething hatred for the NRA since your first day on this board. You have tried to claim you are pro gun while hating the NRA-I can only assume because the NRA supports politicians you abhor

the fact is-while the NRA is not perfect and often compromises when it shouldn't or supports people with R by their name when they aren't really pro gun, the NRA is far more interested in protecting our second amendment rights than liberals and Democrats

 

[ThoughtEx.]

you are all over the place-I am talking about how democrat leaders are trying to restrict and infringe on our rights and you are going off about cops killing people. I get the fact that you have had a seething hatred for the NRA since your first day on this board. You have tried to claim you are pro gun while hating the NRA-I can only assume because the NRA supports politicians you abhor

the fact is-while the NRA is not perfect and often compromises when it shouldn't or supports people with R by their name when they aren't really pro gun, the NRA is far more interested in protecting our second amendment rights than liberals and Democrats

You replied to me Turtle, defending your precious NRA. I'm on my original point, and not going off on another tangent of Why the NRA hurts gun rights by polarizing the country for gun sales.

We've been over it. At least 10 times in the last 2 years. In fact, my first post on this board, you were the first to reply to it. On this very same subject.

We would get along, if you weren't so in love with the damn NRA.

And I don't support any politician. Or the government in general.

 

[TurtleDude]

You replied to me Turtle, defending your precious NRA. I'm on my original point, and not going off on another tangent of Why the NRA hurts gun rights by polarizing the country for gun sales.

We've been over it. At least 10 times in the last 2 years. In fact, my first post on this board, you were the first to reply to it. On this very same subject.

We would get along, if you weren't so in love with the damn NRA.

I see the NRA as necessary if not a perfect tool for gun owners. And I deny they have hurt gun rights. The Democrats polarized the country when they tried to pretend they were doing something about escalating street crime in the 60s, after Nixon found an effective way to attack the party that held the white house, the courts, and both houses of congress. I don't think the initial goal of the Democrats was to harass gun owners but rather pass laws they could use to pander to the ignorant public while not actually upsetting those who vote for them and who would find a real crack down on street criminals to be "racist" or anti poor. Gun owners and their rights were merely acceptable or unintentional collateral damage to Democrats who passed gun laws. However, those "collaterally damaged" were pissed and they fought back by mobilizing pro gun groups to lobby against the politicians who had bought into the gun control is crime control lie. and when that happened, the Democrats next attack was to punish those voters and pro gun groups with harassing legislation

 

[ThoughtEx.]

I see the NRA as necessary if not a perfect tool for gun owners. And I deny they have hurt gun rights. The Democrats polarized the country when they tried to pretend they were doing something about escalating street crime in the 60s, after Nixon found an effective way to attack the party that held the white house, the courts, and both houses of congress. I don't think the initial goal of the Democrats was to harass gun owners but rather pass laws they could use to pander to the ignorant public while not actually upsetting those who vote for them and who would find a real crack down on street criminals to be "racist" or anti poor. Gun owners and their rights were merely acceptable or unintentional collateral damage to Democrats who passed gun laws. However, those "collaterally damaged" were pissed and they fought back by mobilizing pro gun groups to lobby against the politicians who had bought into the gun control is crime control lie. and when that happened, the Democrats next attack was to punish those voters and pro gun groups with harassing legislation

You don't get why I hate the NRA. It's because of their tactics, tactics that make people think the second isn't worth it. If you haven't noticed, the NRA is great at lobbying, raising cash, blocking bills, for now. But the more common sense bills they block, the more they say this violates a right, when it doesn't, the more they stop the funding to research the more people not libtards, not politicians, people will grow to hate them and the second.

Your losing ground in the public eye, those Dems have been getting braver and braver and asking for more and more and the populace has eaten it up. Because they are tired of the NRA's bull****. They are tired of kids dying and having grieving people being called crisis actors.

Maybe not in your lifetime, but mine definitely, there will come a real threat to the 2nd Amendment with overwhelming public support. Not because people hate guns. But because people hate the NRA and it's tactics.

You are right. There are crazy Dems out to get your guns. But nobody was listening to them til the NRA went doubly crazy and started saying if you're not with us, you're against us. All to to keep sales up. It's shortsighted.

It's already starting, more people are rejoicing at the NRA getting caught with Russian money, than are defending them. Why? Because they are almost universally hated by people who really have no problems with guns, they just want some token laws that say 'here i did something' even if they don't ****ing work.

I addressed your bull****, now let's talk about real rights violations.

When an agent of the state kills a citizen for suspicion of having a gun, what is that to you? A rights violation?

What should we do about that? If it keeps happening can we really say we have that right?

 

[TurtleDude]

You don't get why I hate the NRA. It's because of their tactics, tactics that make people think the second isn't worth it. If you haven't noticed, the NRA is great at lobbying, raising cash, blocking bills, for now. But the more common sense bills they block, the more they say this violates a right, when it doesn't, the more they stop the funding to research the more people not libtards, not politicians, people will grow to hate them and the second.

Your losing ground in the public eye, those Dems have been getting braver and braver and asking for more and more and the populace has eaten it up. Because they are tired of the NRA's bull****. They are tired of kids dying and having grieving people being called crisis actors.

Maybe not in your lifetime, but mine definitely, there will come a real threat to the 2nd Amendment with overwhelming public support. Not because people hate guns. But because people hate the NRA and it's tactics.

You are right. There are crazy Dems out to get your guns. But nobody was listening to them til the NRA went doubly crazy and started saying if you're not with us, you're against us. All to to keep sales up. It's shortsighted.

It's already starting, more people are rejoicing at the NRA getting caught with Russian money, than are defending them. Why? Because they are almost universally hated by people who really have no problems with guns, they just want some token laws that say 'here i did something' even if they don't ****ing work.

what are those COMMON SENSE bills

ones that feel good but don't do crap about crime

ones that are designed to fail so their proponents can claim additional laws are needed

People hate the NRA for helping defeat their candidates

many gays hate the NRA because pro gun politicians are less likely to support gay rights than gun banners. Same with abortion and the "metoo" movement

 

[ThoughtEx.]

what are those COMMON SENSE bills

ones that feel good but don't do crap about crime

ones that are designed to fail so their proponents can claim additional laws are needed

People hate the NRA for helping defeat their candidates

many gays hate the NRA because pro gun politicians are less likely to support gay rights than gun banners. Same with abortion and the "metoo" movement

That's your problem, you're projecting your bias into over hundreds of millions of people. It's not because the NRA keeps winning, it's the NRA's rhetoric. No one but Trump supporters are that blindly loyal to a candidate or politician that they would go to the levels they are going just because one lost.

You know what kind of stuff I support, education, mental health overhaul, non lethal ammunition within city limits.

You know I don't support background checks. Or bans. You've made me declare this over 100 times calling me a liar every single time because I hate the NRA because it makes people my enemy. That don't need to be my enemy.

The NRA makes it to where I have to be either pro gun or pro justice. For no other reason than gun sales. That's it. The only reason they fear monger on the level they do. The only reason they pick fights with Dems. So they can scare people into buying a gun that may get banned if the Dems ever win. Remind me, wasn't it Reagan who banned assault weapons?

Now, we've talked for posts and posts about your tangent. Again. for the billionth time. Saying the same **** we said last time and the time before that.

Lets talk about.

If an agent of the state kills a citizen on the suspicion of having a gun, is that a right's violation? If they keep doing it, do we really have that right?

I don't think so, I think as long as law enforcement can kill a civilian using fear as an excuse that the second is being violated on a national level. LE shouldn't be able to fire first. Shouldn't be able to engage out of fear. They need cause. Or its violating our rights.

 

[Rucker61]

That's your problem, you're projecting your bias into over hundreds of millions of people. It's not because the NRA keeps winning, it's the NRA's rhetoric. No one but Trump supporters are that blindly loyal to a candidate or politician that they would go to the levels they are going just because one lost.

You know what kind of stuff I support, education, mental health overhaul, non lethal ammunition within city limits.

You know I don't support background checks. Or bans. You've made me declare this over 100 times calling me a liar every single time because I hate the NRA because it makes people my enemy. That don't need to be my enemy.

The NRA makes it to where I have to be either pro gun or pro justice.

No, you created that dichotomy in your mind. Why can't you be pro-gun and pro-justice?

For no other reason than gun sales. That's it. The only reason they fear monger on the level they do. The only reason they pick fights with Dems. So they can scare people into buying a gun that may get banned if the Dems ever win.

The Democrats introduced bills at the federal to ban the purchase of new "assault weapons" 2013, 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2019, and in various states in recent years to ban ownership. These weren't secret bills, passed in the night, other than the SAFE Act. It's not fear mongering to point out this fact. Even though these are popular weapons, they are only a fraction of the annual gun sales. It's been the introduction of these bills that have spurred gun sales, not rhetoric from the NRA.

Remind me, wasn't it Reagan who banned assault weapons?

No, it wasn't Reagan, but thanks for the attempt. What was actually banned during that "ban"?

Now, we've talked for posts and posts about your tangent. Again. for the billionth time. Saying the same **** we said last time and the time before that.

Lets talk about.

If an agent of the state kills a citizen on the suspicion of having a gun, is that a right's violation? If they keep doing it, do we really have that right?

I don't think so, I think as long as law enforcement can kill a civilian using fear as an excuse that the second is being violated on a national level. LE shouldn't be able to fire first. Shouldn't be able to engage out of fear. They need cause. Or its violating our rights.

Changing the rules of engagement would likely result in fewer dead unarmed suspects. It would likely result in more dead cops and more dead innocent bystanders. Cops don't engage suspects with their guns because a Second Amendment violation. They engage suspects to keep from getting shot (hopefully) or because the consequences for being wrong are nonexistent (likely too often). Cops have the job of protecting the public and the personal goal of going home at the end of every shift. The change in ROE that you suggested, to let any suspect shoot first, is huge. It puts the advantage in the hands of the criminals. I'm not sure how that would play out. One consequence might be an accelerated drive for truly effective less than lethal weaponry.

 

[TurtleDude]

That's your problem, you're projecting your bias into over hundreds of millions of people. It's not because the NRA keeps winning, it's the NRA's rhetoric. No one but Trump supporters are that blindly loyal to a candidate or politician that they would go to the levels they are going just because one lost.

You know what kind of stuff I support, education, mental health overhaul, non lethal ammunition within city limits.

You know I don't support background checks. Or bans. You've made me declare this over 100 times calling me a liar every single time because I hate the NRA because it makes people my enemy. That don't need to be my enemy.

The NRA makes it to where I have to be either pro gun or pro justice. For no other reason than gun sales. That's it. The only reason they fear monger on the level they do. The only reason they pick fights with Dems. So they can scare people into buying a gun that may get banned if the Dems ever win. Remind me, wasn't it Reagan who banned assault weapons?

Now, we've talked for posts and posts about your tangent. Again. for the billionth time. Saying the same **** we said last time and the time before that.

Lets talk about.

If an agent of the state kills a citizen on the suspicion of having a gun, is that a right's violation? If they keep doing it, do we really have that right?

I don't think so, I think as long as law enforcement can kill a civilian using fear as an excuse that the second is being violated on a national level. LE shouldn't be able to fire first. Shouldn't be able to engage out of fear. They need cause. Or its violating our rights.

see post 22-I cannot say it better.

LE shouldn't be able to fire first

this is mega-silly

and Rucker is right-you can be pro second amendment and be pro justice.

you apparently either support gun bans or you pretend, by ignoring them, that we don't see that

 

[ThoughtEx.]

see post 22-I cannot say it better.

LE shouldn't be able to fire first

this is mega-silly

and Rucker is right-you can be pro second amendment and be pro justice.

you apparently either support gun bans or you pretend, by ignoring them, that we don't see that

I'm not ignoring ****, I'm straight up telling you that the NRA pushes these fights to the point people want to ban guns. How many times and different ways do I have to say that to you. They pick these fights, create an us vs them mindset, and fan the flames til people are against them not guns and then point and say see, they want to take your guns.

Just to keep sales up.

Do I need to make up an interpretive dance for you to get the message?

What the **** are you not getting.

And no, you can't be pro NRA and pro justice, they have shown us all who they are.

And I haven't even started on them being traitors. Taking Russian money. I spit on the NRA.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm not ignoring ****, I'm straight up telling you that the NRA pushes these fights to the point people want to ban guns. How many times and different ways do I have to say that to you. They pick these fights, create an us vs them mindset, and fan the flames til people are against them not guns and then point and say see, they want to take your guns.

Just to keep sales up.

Do I need to make up an interpretive dance for you to get the message?

What the **** are you not getting.

And no, you can't be pro NRA and pro justice, they have shown us all who they are.

And I haven't even started on them being traitors. Taking Russian money. I spit on the NRA.

so its not pandering politicians calling for bans because of a well publitzed shooting-rather it is the NRA who causes politicians to call for bans? You're actually sort of right given most democrat gun banners push for bans to punish groups that don't vote for them

What did the NRA change as a result of allegedly taking Russian money

the fact is-you have an irrational hatred of the NRA than can ONLY be explained by the fact that your voting preferences are not supported by the NRA