Group topples George Washington statue

[grip]

Well you claim all removing them does is stir up controversy but its their very existence that's controversial in the first place.

The two ideas are not necessarily incongruent. I can be emotionally unaffected by the removal of something yet still see the reason and act itself as senseless. If they were being removed for being dilapidated or unsafe, then no problem, but because they were built by flawed humans from the past, ridiculous.

More than half the ancient cultures of Europe practiced slavery and servitude without having all their archeological remains removed or destroyed. Because humanity was cruel and less civilized in the past, as a whole, it doesn't mean erasing the memory of it. If anything, we need to be reminded of our past mistakes, so as not to repeat them.

 

[Roadvirus]

Americans get crazier by the second.

Just the ones who are slobbering PC loons.

 

[Master Debator]

The two ideas are not necessarily incongruent. I can be emotionally unaffected by the removal of something yet still see the reason and act itself as senseless. If they were being removed for being dilapidated or unsafe, then no problem, but because they were built by flawed humans from the past, ridiculous.

I didn't ask about how you felt. I dont care how you feel about their removal unless you feel angry in which case... :lol:

I asked about characterizing their removal as stiring up controversy while ignoring their controversial nature.

More than half the ancient cultures of Europe practiced slavery and servitude without having all their archeological remains removed or destroyed. Because humanity was cruel and less civilized in the past, as a whole, it doesn't mean erasing the memory of it. If anything, we need to be reminded of our past mistakes, so as not to repeat them.

I don't need statues to remember history and the only way it can be erased is everyone forgets about it. I'm all for teaching kids about the racist slavers who founded this country and the racist slavers who turned traitor to fight for the right to keep owning slaves. I just don't want their monuments up. Now you're free to feel differently, you can feel anyway you like. They're still coming down. :shrug:

 

[diz]

I don't need statues to remember history and the only way it can be erased is everyone forgets about it. I'm all for teaching kids about the racist slavers who founded this country and the racist slavers who turned traitor to fight for the right to keep owning slaves. I just don't want their monuments up. Now you're free to feel differently, you can feel anyway you like. They're still coming down. :shrug:

You do get that you live in a democracy right? Or have you managed to convince yourself yours is the only opinion that matters?

 

[Aurora]

Well you claim all removing them does is stir up controversy but its their very existence that's controversial in the first place.

To people who hate our country and want it transformed.

 

[AlphaOmega]

This proves beyond any shadow of a doubt what I have been saying all along. These lefties have reached a level of dumb never seen before in our history.
Same idiots went into starbucks and pulled out their allowance money complete with ole George on the front to pay for their mocha loco lattes..

 

[NotreDame]

I really don't care if they remove every statue and monument in the country because it's unadulterated, puerile idiocy. It doesn't prove or accomplish anything other than to stir up animosity.


Group topples George Washington statue in NE Portland | KOIN.com

PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) - A quiet evening of demonstrations for racial justice and police reform in Portland ended with the razing of a George Washington statue on the eve of Juneteenth.

Thursday marked the 21st day of protests in Portland sparked by the death of George Floyd at the hands of Minneapolis police. Two groups - Rose City Justice and Lavender Caucus - hosted a sit-in rally at Jefferson High School in the evening where community members shared their experiences with racism to a crowd of a few hundred. The group did not hold a march.

There may be a rational justification. This incident isn’t necessarily idiocy. Although the means of removal of the statue I disagree with.

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[NotreDame]

Down with Washington, Jefferson, Madison up with H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, Jesse Jackson.

Has it ever occurred to you there may be a rational defense for removing those statues? I’m not agreeing or defending the means of removal here, but rather I’m saying removal of the statues of those men might just have a rational justification.


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[Aurora]

Has it ever occurred to you there may be a rational defense for removing those statues? I’m not agreeing or defending the means of removal here, but rather I’m saying removal of the statues of those men might just have a rational justification.


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Lets hear it. I hope it's better than, they were slave owners. What goes up now..Winnie Mandela?

 

[veritas1]

As I've been saying from the start, this is NOT about racism or George Floyd. This is about destroying society, erasing our history and uprooting Western culture. The push back needs to start and soon.

 

[NotreDame]

The two ideas are not necessarily incongruent. I can be emotionally unaffected by the removal of something yet still see the reason and act itself as senseless. If they were being removed for being dilapidated or unsafe, then no problem, but because they were built by flawed humans from the past, ridiculous.

More than half the ancient cultures of Europe practiced slavery and servitude without having all their archeological remains removed or destroyed. Because humanity was cruel and less civilized in the past, as a whole, it doesn't mean erasing the memory of it. If anything, we need to be reminded of our past mistakes, so as not to repeat them.

Let’s dispense with the pretense that removal of the statues in question is “erasing the memory” of the past. Amazingly, much of the “past” has been preserved for posterity without the use of statues. Indeed, the primary method of preserving history hasn’t been by the erection of statues. I do not recall a statue epidemic chewing up large swaths of real estate to memorialize thousands of historical events of the past.

A rationale for removal of American figures who owned slaves isn’t, as far as I can tell, because they were built by flawed humans. Even if this is a rationale, there are other, more logical reasons for removal of statues of Americans who owned slaves in the U.S.


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[veritas1]

There may be a rational justification. This incident isn’t necessarily idiocy. Although the means of removal of the statue I disagree with.

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There is no justification. Without Washington, there would be no United States. Maybe that's why the left hates him.

 

[veritas1]

Let’s dispense with the pretense that removal of the statues in question is “erasing the memory” of the past. Amazingly, much of the “past” has been preserved for posterity without the use of statues. Indeed, the primary method of preserving history hasn’t been by the erection of statues. I do not recall a statue epidemic chewing up large swaths of real estate to memorialize thousands of historical events of the past.

A rationale for removal of American figures who owned slaves isn’t, as far as I can tell, because they were built by flawed humans. Even if this is a rationale, there are other, more logical reasons for removal of statues of Americans who owned slaves in the U.S.


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If you aren't going to put up a statue of Washington, then all statues should come down. If he isn't worthy of one, nobody is.

 

[Master Debator]

You do get that you live in a democracy right? Or have you managed to convince yourself yours is the only opinion that matters?

To me, my opinion is the only one that matters. And I only care about Democracy so far as it gets me what I want. Its a tool and if its less effective than another one, then I'll use that one instead.

To people who hate our country and want it transformed.

I do want to transform our country. :shrug:

 

[Master Debator]

As I've been saying from the start, this is NOT about racism or George Floyd. This is about destroying society, erasing our history and uprooting Western culture. The push back needs to start and soon.

:lamo

Who's going to care? Who's going to get behind you to defend statues of slavers? :lol:

 

[veritas1]

:lamo

Who's going to care? Who's going to get behind you to defend statues of slavers? :lol:

If we are at the point where we are tearing down monuments to Washington, Jefferson, etc. then we are finished as a country. What's next? Tear down the Washington Monument? Jefferson Memorial? Burn down Mt. Vernon? The maniacal left is itching for a war it seems.

 

[NotreDame]

There is no justification. Without Washington, there would be no United States. Maybe that's why the left hates him.

That doesn’t demonstrate there isn’t a justification. Rather, you have provided a reason for their existence and perhaps to remain. A good reason, as Washington’s actions helped create the nation. There is a justification for removing the statues and there should be a dialogue about those competing reasons.


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[NotreDame]

If you aren't going to put up a statue of Washington, then all statues should come down. If he isn't worthy of one, nobody is.

That’s too broad.


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[Master Debator]

If we are at the point where we are tearing down monuments to Washington, Jefferson, etc. then we are finished as a country. What's next? Tear down the Washington Monument? Jefferson Memorial? Burn down Mt. Vernon? The maniacal left is itching for a war it seems.

Really? The loss of some statues would finish us as a country? :lamo

 

[Aurora]

To me, my opinion is the only one that matters. And I only care about Democracy so far as it gets me what I want. Its a tool and if its less effective than another one, then I'll use that one instead.



I do want to transform our country. :shrug:

I bet you do.

 

[veritas1]

Really? The loss of some statues would finish us as a country? :lamo

If we can't honor our greatest founders, we don't deserve to enjoy what they gave us. It's not just about statues. It's about the left co-opting what history we're allowed to know and how that history is presented. That will involve much more than just statues.

 

[NotreDame]

Lets hear it. I hope it's better than, they were slave owners. What goes up now..Winnie Mandela?

Perhaps now is a perfect time to realize the memorialization of men who oppressed, denied freedom and equality to a race of people in this nation, a race who today are integrated into our political community as citizens of this nation where they were denied not only citizenship but the dignity of what it means to be human, by the very men memorialized in the statues and pictures, fighting to this day for an equality and sense of justice still denied to them presently but can be traced back to the very men we are idol worshipping with the statutes, pictures and their names on buildings. The vestiges of inequality today that blacks are fighting to overcome is an inequality that was perpetuated by the slavers such as Washington, Jefferson, etcetera.

They are monuments to oppressors of black people, black people who constitute a significant part of the population today and are integrated into the political community with rights, protections, and privileges as whites, under the laws of this nation. Jefferson and others perpetuated the oppression, participated in the oppression, embraced the oppression, were inherently a part of denying blacks rights, privileges, and protections under the law enjoyed by whites and other people.

Jefferson is undeniably a symbol of oppression of blacks. Jefferson as an oppressor of blacks is as inseparable as he is a tribute to "democracy/freedom." Ironically, his tribute to "freedom" comes with an asterisk, "freedom" for whites.

Hence, it is rational to remove Jefferson statues from the public.

Hence, it is sensible, rational, for blacks, striving for equality and a sense of just treatment today, to ask, demand, the statues, pictures, names of buildings, to be removed, changed, from public property, as they are of men who unequivocally stood for the denial of an equality, fair treatment, and justice, they are trying to get more of today!


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[Aurora]

Perhaps now is a perfect time to realize the memorialization of men who oppressed, denied freedom and equality to a race of people in this nation, a race who today are integrated into our political community as citizens of this nation where they were denied not only citizenship but the dignity of what it means to be human, by the very men memorialized in the statues and pictures, fighting to this day for an equality and sense of justice still denied to them presently but can be traced back to the very men we are idol worshipping with the statutes, pictures and their names on buildings. The vestiges of inequality today that blacks are fighting to overcome is an inequality that was perpetuated by the slavers such as Washington, Jefferson, etcetera.

They are monuments to oppressors of black people, black people who constitute a significant part of the population today and are integrated into the political community with rights, protections, and privileges as whites, under the laws of this nation. Jefferson and others perpetuated the oppression, participated in the oppression, embraced the oppression, were inherently a part of denying blacks rights, privileges, and protections under the law enjoyed by whites and other people.

Jefferson is undeniably a symbol of oppression of blacks. Jefferson as an oppressor of blacks is as inseparable as he is a tribute to "democracy/freedom." Ironically, his tribute to "freedom" comes with an asterisk, "freedom" for whites.

Hence, it is rational to remove Jefferson statues from the public.

Hence, it is sensible, rational, for blacks, striving for equality and a sense of just treatment today, to ask, demand, the statues, pictures, names of buildings, to be removed, changed, from public property, as they are of men who unequivocally stood for the denial of an equality, fair treatment, and justice, they are trying to get more of today!


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Those same men you hate also created a country that was the envy of the world. Slavery has been a constant throughout world history. Modern countries ended slavery.

You are wrong.

 

[Northern Light]

You can't just dismiss what's happening. I'm not saying I am ideologically aligned with these people or what they're doing, but the mass civil unrest is nothing to scoff at. I personally haven't seen this in my own life time and it's shocking. I feel that to dismiss what's happening as just random acts of some entitled activists would be a big mistake. Something serious is going on in our country. I don't know how some people can be so cavalier about it.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with what's happening, just that it's not unremarkable. In fact it's worrying.

 

[NotreDame]

Those same men you hate also created a country that was the envy of the world. Slavery has been a constant throughout world history. Modern countries ended slavery.

You are wrong.

“I” hate? I never said I hated them. You presume too much and rather than presume, falsely, traits about me, focus instead upon the reasoning of the point of view.

The fact slavery has “been constant throughout history” means what exactly to the statues of men who practiced it in this country? Does the prevalence of some practice throughout “world history” justify or excuse it? Surely not.

And the “same men” who “also created a country,” created a country where slavery was legal, and participated in that slavery. In addition, the “country” they “created” has never been static, and the mores, values, and laws of today are an anathema to their practice of slavery. Times change. Today, with the values, laws, public policy, not only being radically different but entirely inconsistent with the values, laws, and society that practiced slavery and allowed slavery to exist. Which is to say, our nation today has perhaps outgrown, evolved past, those men who oppressed other by slavery, such that paying homage to them statues on public property is an anachronism.

I might be wrong but not because of the untenable but hopeful objections you made. You really didn’t engage logic of the point of view I espoused.


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