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Government Teaches By Example

TimmyBoy

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The title of my thread is enough said:

Bush Estimates 30,000 Iraqis Killed in War By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer
3 minutes ago



PHILADELPHIA - In a rare, unscripted moment, President Bush on Monday estimated 30,000 Iraqis have died in the war, the first time he has publicly acknowledged the high price Iraqis have paid in the push for democracy.

In the midst of a campaign to win support for the unpopular war, Bush unexpectedly invited questions from the World Affairs Council of Philadelphia after a speech asserting that Iraq was making progress despite violence, flawed elections and other setbacks.

He immediately was challenged about the number of Iraqis who have lost their lives since the beginning of the war.

"I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis," Bush said. "We've lost about 2,140 of our own troops in Iraq."

The U.S. military does not release its tally of Iraqi dead, but there is some consensus from outside experts that roughly 30,000 is a credible number. White House counselor Dan Bartlett said Bush was not giving an official figure but simply repeating public estimates.

Another questioner challenged the administration's linkage of the Iraq war to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Bush said Saddam Hussein was a threat and was widely believed to have weapons of mass destruction — a belief that later proved false.
Crips Gang Co-Founder Executed in Calif. By KIM CURTIS, Associated Press Writer
9 minutes ago



SAN QUENTIN, Calif. - Convicted killer Stanley Tookie Williams, the Crips gang co-founder whose case stirred a national debate about capital punishment versus the possibility of redemption, was executed Tuesday morning.

Williams, 51, died at 12:35 a.m. after receiving a lethal injection at San Quentin State Prison, officials said. Before the execution, he was "complacent, quiet and thoughtful," Corrections Department spokeswoman Terry Thornton said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_re_us/williams_execution
 

Billo_Really

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116 people have been exonerated from death row since 1992.
They spent a culmanitive total of over 1000 years behind bars.
These are those people.



These were innocent people that were almost put to death
if the states had their way. I can't for the life of me think of
any reason why an innocent person should be put to death
for the good of society.

For those of you that support the death penalty,
what would you say to this women?

Sonia Jacobs Florida Convicted 1976
Released 1992



Sonia Jacobs (Photo: Loren Santow)

Jacobs and her companion, Jesse Tafero, were sentenced to death for the murder of two policemen at a highway rest stop in 1976. A third co-defendant received a life sentence after pleading guilty and testifying against Jacobs and Tafero. The jury recommended a life sentence for Jacobs, but the judge overruled the jury and imposed death. A childhood friend and filmmaker, Micki Dickoff, then became interested in her case. Jacobs's conviction was overturned on a federal writ of habeas corpus in 1992. Following the discovery that the chief prosecution witness had given contradictory statements, the prosecutor accepted a plea in which Jacobs did not admit guilt, and she was immediately released. Jesse Tafero, whose conviction was based on much of the same highly questionable evidence, had been executed in 1990 before new evidence had been uncovered. (See Jacobs v. Singletary, 952 F.2d 1282 (11th Cir. 1992); “Play revives Broward death-penalty case,” Miami Herald, October 13, 2002).

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=45&did=1149#rn20
 

TimmyBoy

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I found some of this info on the founding of the Crips from Wikepedia:

Early life
Born to a 17-year-old mother in New Orleans, Louisiana, Williams grew up in the impoverished South Central Los Angeles neighborhood, where he made a name for himself for being a fighter and a "general" on the streets of South Central's West Side. People sometimes mistakenly believe that "Tookie" is a nickname, but it is in fact his given middle name, which was shared by Williams and his father, Stanley T. Williams Jr.


Formation of the Crips
The eastern side Crips were formed by Raymond "Truck" Washington in 1969. Williams joined Washington in 1971, forming the west side Crips. According to many of the original members of the gang, it was initially started as a means to keep the streets safe, reducing violence and police brutality. According to Williams "we started out—at least my intent was to, in a sense—address all of the so-called neighboring gangs in the area and to put, in a sense—I thought I can cleanse the neighborhood of all these, you know, marauding gangs. But I was totally wrong. And eventually, we morphed into the monster we were addressing."[1] According to one version, the original name of the gang was the word Cribs from the first name of the gang, the Avenue Babies, and a reference to their youthfulness. The name Crips was first introduced in the Los Angeles Sentinel in a description by crime victims of young men with canes, as if they were crippled. The name stuck.
 

TimmyBoy

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Hmm, Wikepedia also mentions that Tookie's son is a convicted murderer as well and is in the same prison that his father was executed in.
 

Calm2Chaos

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TimmyBoy said:
Hmm, Wikepedia also mentions that Tookie's son is a convicted murderer as well and is in the same prison that his father was executed in.
Is he going to the slab also, or are we going through 30 years of appeals with him too?
 

TimmyBoy

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Calm2Chaos said:
Is he going to the slab also, or are we going through 30 years of appeals with him too?
Gee, what a "deturrent" eh? I would imagine Tookie's son's kids would go to the slab too eh? Why don't we just go ahead and put the whole ghetto on the slab while we are at it.
 
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TimmyBoy said:
Gee, what a "deturrent" eh? I would imagine Tookie's son's kids would go to the slab too eh? Why don't we just go ahead and put the whole ghetto on the slab while we are at it.
Now there's an idea....
 

TimmyBoy

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KCConservative said:
Now there's an idea....
Yeah, that idea is called racism and genocide.
 
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TimmyBoy said:
Yeah, that idea is called racism and genocide.
You're right, of course. Question: Is putting Tookie Williams to deat for the crimes he commited racist?
 

Calm2Chaos

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TimmyBoy said:
Gee, what a "deturrent" eh? I would imagine Tookie's son's kids would go to the slab too eh? Why don't we just go ahead and put the whole ghetto on the slab while we are at it.

UMMMM.. has the whole ghetto been convicted of brutal muliple murders of defenseless people? Is that what your inferring? wow what a racist assumption..... You should be ashamed of yourself....
 

Calm2Chaos

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KCConservative said:
You're right, of course. Question: Is putting Tookie Williams to deat for the crimes he commited racist?
Answer - NO

Far more whites have been executed then blacks as of Dec 5 2005.

BLACK
338
34%
HISPANIC
63 6%
WHITE
579
58%
OTHER
22
2.3%

Not to mention there are more whites on death row then blacks....
 

Billo_Really

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I guess I'm not surprized that nobody has the balls to discuss the issues raised in post #2. Neo's sure know a lot about cutting and running.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Billo_Really said:
I guess I'm not surprized that nobody has the balls to discuss the issues raised in post #2. Neo's sure know a lot about cutting and running.

Hence the reason we have the process that we do. Try to weed out any mistakes, or give people the right to show new evidence that may occur with better technologies
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Calm2Chaos
Hence the reason we have the process that we do. Try to weed out any mistakes, or give people the right to show new evidence that may occur with better technologies
There have been cases where the government would not allow the evidence to be admitted. I posted a link in the other thread responding to your post. That's a pretty good place to start if your interested in seeing for yourself what I'm talking about. I was pretty appauled by the way we process capitol crimes. It is definately not what you would think. Here's another link too. It's not hard to find info on this issue.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=220&scid=19
 
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Billo_Really said:
I guess I'm not surprized that nobody has the balls to discuss the issues raised in post #2. Neo's sure know a lot about cutting and running.
Because, unlike the examples you gave in post #2, the Williams case is open and shut, unrefutable.

On a side note, there is a wonderful play you might be interested in reading or seeing, if you ever get a chance. It's called The Exonerated.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0571211836/104-7791467-2982319?v=glance&n=283155


Review

"[A]stark, spellbinding play [and] a profoundly moving excursion through the cracks in the justice system." -- Peter Marks, Washington Post

"An artful and moving evening of documentary theater . . . The play is on the one hand a devastating memorial to injustice but it also pays handsome tribute to the resilience of human hearts and minds." --Charles Isherwood, Variety

"Both compelling and deeply moving... This documentary-style presentation relating the true stories of people exonerated of their crimes while serving on death row is a riveting theatrical experience." --Frank Scheck, Hollywood Reporter

"Intense and deeply affecting"--Ben Brantley, The New York Times



Review
"[A]stark, spellbinding play [and] a profoundly moving excursion through the cracks in the justice system." -- Peter Marks, Washington Post

"An artful and moving evening of documentary theater . . . The play is on the one hand a devastating memorial to injustice but it also pays handsome tribute to the resilience of human hearts and minds." --Charles Isherwood, Variety

"Both compelling and deeply moving... This documentary-style presentation relating the true stories of people exonerated of their crimes while serving on death row is a riveting theatrical experience." --Frank Scheck, Hollywood Reporter

"Intense and deeply affecting"--Ben Brantley, The New York Times
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by KCConservative
Because, unlike the examples you gave in post #2, the Williams case is open and shut, unrefutable.

On a side note, there is a wonderful play you might be interested in reading or seeing, if you ever get a chance. It's called The Exonerated.
Apparently, all the appellate Judges that reviewed the case tend to agree with you. Since I haven't done a lot of research on the "Tookie" case, I have to trust their better judgement.

Thanks for the tip about "Exonerated".
 

Billo_Really

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God-dammit, I forgot to say something about Bush in that last post!
 
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Billo_Really said:
God-dammit, I forgot to say something about Bush in that last post!
lol....I knew you meant to. ;)
 

Stinger

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Billo_Really said:
116 people have been exonerated from death row since 1992.
They spent a culmanitive total of over 1000 years behind bars.
These are those people.

These were innocent people that were almost put to death
if the states had their way. I can't for the life of me think of
any reason why an innocent person should be put to death
for the good of society.

For those of you that support the death penalty,
what would you say to this women?

Sonia Jacobs Florida Convicted 1976
Released 1992



Sonia Jacobs (Photo: Loren Santow)


Not all were exonerated and in the case of Jacobs her conviction was lessened to second degree MURDER. Your cause seems to like to misrepresent many such cases as if the people were actually innocent when in fact they were not.

As far as the staged picture

>>Jacobs, now 57, pleaded guilty in 1992 to second-degree murder of two police officers under an "Alford plea," in which she accepted a guilty verdict without abandoning her claim of innocence.
A transcript of her plea-bargain hearing says she acknowledged that prosecutors could prove she took part in the fatal shootings if the charges went to trial. In return for her plea, she was released after nearly 17 years in prison. Jacobs' boyfriend had been executed for the crimes.<<


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-24-exonerated_x.htm

Yes what a sweet innocent person she is.


Further to her case:



"A filmmaker persuaded of Jacobs's innocence helped her carry her legal fight to the federal court of appeals, and in 1992 the Broward County prosecutor gave her a choice. She could be retried -- and possibly wind up back on death row. Or she could take what's called an "Alford plea." She pleaded guilty to second-degree murder without admitting guilt but conceding there was enough evidence to convict her. Jacobs was sentenced to time served and released. In 1996 a documentary on her case was aired on ABC. This year Jacobs was the central character in an award-winning play about innocent people on death row, The Exonerated.
"While it is true an Alford plea allows a defendant to continue to deny guilt," Marquis wrote me, "the legal effect is exactly the same as a guilt plea. Jacobs's case is in some ways typical of many of the 'poster child' cases involving people released (as opposed to exonerated) from death row. In many cases not one but two juries found them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt [but] the courts overturned the conviction, frequently not for actual innocence but because evidence was withheld from the defense -- certainly bad behavior, perhaps even properly sanctioned with a reversal, but not an affirmation of actual innocence."

http://www.chicagoreader.com/hottype/2003/031107_2.html
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Stinger:
Not all were exonerated and in the case of Jacobs her conviction was lessened to second degree MURDER. Your cause seems to like to misrepresent many such cases as if the people were actually innocent when in fact they were not.
You do a pretty good job of mis-representing the facts too. You can't say she was "not innocent" because she was not proven guilty. The prosecution's chief witness gave contradicting testimony. You can't make a judgement from that. However, you do. The truth is, we don't know. She could be as guilty as sin. But there is an equal amount of weight that she could be innocent of all charges. I personnally think they gave her the plea bargain to save face for the fact that they botched the trial. And you notice the plea bargain allowed her not to admit guilt. And you also noticed they let her out of prison right away.

My whole point of bringing this up was to bring light to the fact that we are not 100% sure that the people we send to death row are guilty. 116 have been released from death row that were going to die. If they are released, how can anyone say they are still guilty? I will tell you how, P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S!

By the way, they executed her companion who had the same evidence that she had. So they might have executed an innocent man. Your probably OK with that!
 

Calm2Chaos

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Billo_Really said:
You do a pretty good job of mis-representing the facts too. You can't say she was "not innocent" because she was not proven guilty. The prosecution's chief witness gave contradicting testimony. You can't make a judgement from that. However, you do. The truth is, we don't know. She could be as guilty as sin. But there is an equal amount of weight that she could be innocent of all charges. I personnally think they gave her the plea bargain to save face for the fact that they botched the trial. And you notice the plea bargain allowed her not to admit guilt. And you also noticed they let her out of prison right away.

My whole point of bringing this up was to bring light to the fact that we are not 100% sure that the people we send to death row are guilty. 116 have been released from death row that were going to die. If they are released, how can anyone say they are still guilty? I will tell you how, P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S!

By the way, they executed her companion who had the same evidence that she had. So they might have executed an innocent man. Your probably OK with that!
A transcript of her plea-bargain hearing says she acknowledged that prosecutors could prove she took part in the fatal shootings if the charges went to trial.

By the looks of it she is guilty according to her own words, unless of course the plea bargain transcript is wrong
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by Calm2Chaos
A transcript of her plea-bargain hearing says she acknowledged that prosecutors could prove she took part in the fatal shootings if the charges went to trial.

By the looks of it she is guilty according to her own words, unless of course the plea bargain transcript is wrong
I think that was a condition of the plea bargain if that was the case. I haven't seen that statement in her transcripts. Mainly because, I haven't seen her transcripts. But I would think that if they could prove she took part in the shootings, they wouldn't be giving her a plea bargain and releasing her from prison with that being closure for the case. No parole. No probation. Exoneration.

I do not want the guilty walking the streets. If they release someone after 17 years, I doubt she was guilty. We live in a prison state. Releasing people is the last thing on the govenments' mind.

It is interesting they call it the Dept. of Corrections. What are they correcting?
 

Stinger

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Billo_Really said:
You do a pretty good job of mis-representing the facts too. You can't say she was "not innocent" because she was not proven guilty.
I haven't misrepresented anything she was found guilty by a jury and by her own words admitted the state could probably prove her guilt. She was involved in a henious murder and took off in the patrol car along with the other perpetrators.

You can't make a judgement from that. However, you do. The truth is, we don't know. She could be as guilty as sin.
The justice system made the judgement not me and the truth is she admitted that there is enough evidence to tie her to the murders.

My whole point of bringing this up was to bring light to the fact that we are not 100% sure that the people we send to death row are guilty.
And we are not 100% sure that people we send to prison for life are guilty by that measure, but we are sure beyond a reasonable doubt and they are afforded a lengthy appeals process as further protection.

116 have been released from death row that were going to die. If they are released, how can anyone say they are still guilty? I will tell you how, P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S!
Releaseing from death row does not prove they were innocent of the crime. All it proves is a judge believed they did not merit the death penalty NOT that they did not commit the crime.

By the way, they executed her companion who had the same evidence that she had. So they might have executed an innocent man. Your probably OK with that!
I have no reason to believe he was innocent after the court found him guilty of killing the two troopers.

Let's look at a more clear cut case, how about the Atlanta courtroom killer, the guy who shot the judge and police officer in cold blood. Caught on the scene. Do you support the death penalty in that case?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Stinger:
I haven't misrepresented anything she was found guilty by a jury and by her own words admitted the state could probably prove her guilt. She was involved in a henious murder and took off in the patrol car along with the other perpetrators.
If she was guilty, they wouldn't have released her!
 
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