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God gives life with the first breath

vergiss

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Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 33:4: "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

And the story of Ezekiel and the dry bones in Ezekial 37:1-6: "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, thou knowest." Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord." (emphasis mine)

So, Adam had a body before he had a soul. Those who are dead have physical bodies, but no soul. The soul comes from God, not entry of a sperm into an egg. Why give a soul to the 40 percent or so of zygotes and embryos which end up miscarried? We receive the breath of life from God into our lungs when we're born.

Think about it - even in Christianity... followers are "born again", not "conceived again".
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 33:4: "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."
1: When woman is made in Genesis...there is no "life" breathed into her--she is made from Adam's side...Does woman not "live?" or do women not have "souls?" or are we merely "lesser men?"

2:God "breathed" on the waters and formed our ordered world (Gen 1:1-3)...does the earth itself have a soul? And if that may be so--then doesn't everything have a soul since God breathed on all?

3:In the New Testament (which I realize is irrelevant to you as a Jewish person) God breathed upon the disciples in the person of Jesus after His Resurrection (John 20:22). And came again in a wind on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples in the locked room.

4: Even in our language today, when we are "inspired" our mind is enlightened and brought to life like a breath of knowing.... and when we "expire" we are no more the living being we once were.

5. "breath"--"ruah" in Hebrew--and occasionally as "nephesh"--is not the literal "inhaling" of our atmosphere; it is the gift of life from God at its very origin. When life BEGINS we are "inspired" by the "breath" of God.



BTW--Unborn humans do breathe...they exchange oxygen for carbon dioxide through the mother's umbilical cord.




Oh...and one more point on OT "breath"..... (that could be funny:2razz: OT breath would be pretty stale...:lol: )


Ecclesiastes
Chapter 11

5
Just as you know not how the breath of life fashions the human frame in the mother's womb, So you know not the work of God which he is accomplishing in the universe.
 
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vergiss

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1. Presumably, that happened "off-screen". :2razz:

2. I believe everything has a soul. That doesn't mean the soul of an animal is equal to that of a human, though.

3. I can't really argue New Testament stuff, because I don't believe in it and don't know that much about it.

Exchanging oxygen via the umbilical cord is no more breathing through the lungs than a tree's method of "breathing". You could argue that the foetus "eats", too. o_O

Wait, huh? My copy of the Christian Bible says for Ecclesiastes 11:5 "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."
 

Felicity

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vergiss said:
1. Presumably, that happened "off-screen". :2razz:

2. I believe everything has a soul. That doesn't mean the soul of an animal is equal to that of a human, though.

3. I can't really argue New Testament stuff, because I don't believe in it and don't know that much about it.

Exchanging oxygen via the umbilical cord is no more breathing through the lungs than a tree's method of "breathing". You could argue that the foetus "eats", too. o_O

Wait, huh? My copy of the Christian Bible says for Ecclesiastes 11:5 "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."
Is it the King James Version? Do you have footnotes? In that verse the original text read "ruah" in Hebrew. Ruah = wind or breath.

Here's a e-text of the KJV--with footnotes...click on the word "spirit" in the verse and it will take you to the footnote. This site also has the original Hebrew, but I can't read it and couldn't find the word "ruah" for you--maybe you could find it for me?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/ecc011.htm#005
 

tecoyah

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Felicity said:
Is it the King James Version? Do you have footnotes? In that verse the original text read "ruah" in Hebrew. Ruah = wind or breath.

Here's a e-text of the KJV--with footnotes...click on the word "spirit" in the verse and it will take you to the footnote. This site also has the original Hebrew, but I can't read it and couldn't find the word "ruah" for you--maybe you could find it for me?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/ecc011.htm#005
In Greco-Roman Christianity, probably because of the dangers of Gnosticism, the biblical images of God as female were soon suppressed within the doctrine of God. God as Wisdom, Hokmah in Hebrew, or Sophia in Greek, a feminine form, was translated by Christianity into the Logos concept of Philo, which is masculine and was defined as the Son of God. The Shekinah, the theology of God’s mediating presence as female, was de-emphasized; and God’s Spirit Ruah, a feminine noun in Hebrew, took on a neuter form when translated into Greek as Pneuma. The Vulgate translated Ruah into Latin as masculine, Spiritus. God’s Spirit, Ruah, which at the beginning of creation brings forth abundant life in the waters, makes the womb of Mary fruitful
 

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tecoyah said:
In Greco-Roman Christianity, probably because of the dangers of Gnosticism, the biblical images of God as female were soon suppressed within the doctrine of God. God as Wisdom, Hokmah in Hebrew, or Sophia in Greek, a feminine form, was translated by Christianity into the Logos concept of Philo, which is masculine and was defined as the Son of God. The Shekinah, the theology of God’s mediating presence as female, was de-emphasized; and God’s Spirit Ruah, a feminine noun in Hebrew, took on a neuter form when translated into Greek as Pneuma. The Vulgate translated Ruah into Latin as masculine, Spiritus. God’s Spirit, Ruah, which at the beginning of creation brings forth abundant life in the waters, makes the womb of Mary fruitful
Is there something there I was supposed to argue against? It doesn't look like it to me...good.:smile:
 

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Not that I have a problem with masculine or feminine forms of language when talking about God--I believe God has no "gender--both man and woman are the "image" of god so we reflect in our union a fuller picture of God....

but...I wasn't familiar with the term Shekinah and so I looked it up--nothing in this explanation references a specifically female form.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=588&letter=S

Would you explain further?
 

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Can you be careful to cite sources...;)
 

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vergiss said:
Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Jeremiah 1:4-5;
4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."


Ephesians 1:4;
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him


*I*, predates the body.
 

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steen said:
So abortion of the body is irrelevant to the "I"!
When one believes in an eternal soul--of course.
 

Felicity

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Are you coming back vergiss?:confused:
 

vergiss

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Felicity said:
Is it the King James Version? Do you have footnotes? In that verse the original text read "ruah" in Hebrew. Ruah = wind or breath.

Here's a e-text of the KJV--with footnotes...click on the word "spirit" in the verse and it will take you to the footnote. This site also has the original Hebrew, but I can't read it and couldn't find the word "ruah" for you--maybe you could find it for me?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/ecc011.htm#005
Reading that note though, it says

It also denotes the rational, immortal soul by which man is distinguished (Act 7:59; Co1 5:5; Co1 6:20; Co1 7:34), and the soul in its separate state (Heb 12:23), and hence also an apparition (Job 4:15; Luk 24:37, Luk 24:39), an angel (Heb 1:14), and a demon (Luk 4:36; Luk 10:20)... In Rom 1:4, Ti1 3:16, Co2 3:17, Pe1 3:18, it designates the divine nature.
In which case, using the word "spirit" rather than "breath" or "wind" is a more accurate translation, given the context - "way of the breath"? Uh, no.
 

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vergiss said:
Reading that note though, it says



In which case, using the word "spirit" rather than "breath" or "wind" is a more accurate translation, given the context - "way of the breath"? Uh, no.
That just confirms that in these matters--"breath" is not so literal as an exhale from the Mighty One. Don't you agree? It is a literary technique. Do you really think God has physical lungs? I mean, that's the extension of what you are saying--some divine process of CPR brings a being to existence...


(I'm just being smart-alecky, so don't get offended. :) )
 

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Felicity said:
That just confirms that in these matters--"breath" is not so literal as an exhale from the Mighty One. Don't you agree? It is a literary technique. Do you really think God has physical lungs? I mean, that's the extension of what you are saying--some divine process of CPR brings a being to existence...


(I'm just being smart-alecky, so don't get offended. :) )
It is my belief that God gives the soul with the first breath, which is what is being said in the passages I cited. If you bothered to look, you'd realise that unlike the passage you provided, the word "breath" makes literal sense in those contexts.

You haven't explained why God would create so many zygotes and embryos, only to miscarry them often before the mother even realises she's pregnant. Talk about a waste of souls.
 

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Felicity said:
Can you be careful to cite sources...;)
Apologies....thought I was helping, by giving an example of the term.

*tecoyah Butts out now....heh*
 

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vergiss said:
It is my belief that God gives the soul with the first breath, which is what is being said in the passages I cited. If you bothered to look, you'd realise that unlike the passage you provided, the word "breath" makes literal sense in those contexts.
In the 1st one I can see your point with the reference to "nostrils." But ruah means spirit, breath, inspiration, etc, and tecoyah's comments shed light on the grammatical constructions due to feminine gender of the word ruah and the translators that used masculine gender in the translations in some cases-- "Breath" is to denote the life giving force of God rather than simply inhaling and exhaling of God and/or man.


You haven't explained why God would create so many zygotes and embryos, only to miscarry them often before the mother even realises she's pregnant. Talk about a waste of souls.
I don't claim to know the mind of God. I assume it serves to fill the realm of the heavens with souls to glorify Him--but I don't really know. :shrug:
 

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vergiss said:
You haven't explained why God would create so many zygotes and embryos, only to miscarry them often before the mother even realises she's pregnant. Talk about a waste of souls.
God loves children, it is fitting that heaven is full of Children.

After all Jesus said:

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs"
 

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I find the rationization of "Gods" intent in this to be very entertaining. Seems a pattern with many that when the Bible cant explain something....its OK to simply make the answer up. This is not suprising considering the likelyhood that the vast majority of what is said in the Books were made up at some point in the last 2500 years anyway. Whats wrong with simply saying, as felicity did, "I dont know"....its honest, respectful of this "God" dude....and makes for a far more acceptable answer than, "this is what God meant"....I mean, gimme a freakin' break....we can't all be Prophets....Can We?
 

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jimmyjack said:
God loves children, it is fitting that heaven is full of Children.

After all Jesus said:

"Let the little children come to me, and do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs"
What the hell, I thought Christians believe that the only way a person can go to heaven is to accept Jesus? How can a two-day-old zygote accept Jesus?


Felicity said:
In the 1st one I can see your point with the reference to "nostrils." But ruah means spirit, breath, inspiration, etc, and tecoyah's comments shed light on the grammatical constructions due to feminine gender of the word ruah and the translators that used masculine gender in the translations in some cases-- "Breath" is to denote the life giving force of God rather than simply inhaling and exhaling of God and/or man.
But how do you know what it denotes? Did you write the Bible?
 

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vergiss said:
What the hell, I thought Christians believe that the only way a person can go to heaven is to accept Jesus? How can a two-day-old zygote accept Jesus?
Do not forget, for God anything is possible.
 

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vergiss said:
But how do you know what it denotes? Did you write the Bible?

Well how do I know you're asking me "how do you know?" Words mean things. If you want me to argue such things as is there really a keyboard in front of me rather than a intracate hallucination...gimme a break:roll: --we know what we can know--and the word "ruah" has multiple connotative and denotative depth--it's not just "breath"--we know that.
 
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vergiss said:
Genesis 2:7: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Job 33:4: "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

I am not a Bible Scholar In no way does this say life begins at first breath. "the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Where does it say when the breath is given? Where does it say when the first breath of a baby is the begining of life?

And the story of Ezekiel and the dry bones in Ezekial 37:1-6: "The hand of the Lord was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones. And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry. And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord God, thou knowest." Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord." (emphasis mine)

So, Adam had a body before he had a soul. Those who are dead have physical bodies, but no soul. The soul comes from God, not entry of a sperm into an egg. Why give a soul to the 40 percent or so of zygotes and embryos which end up miscarried? We receive the breath of life from God into our lungs when we're born.

Think about it - even in Christianity... followers are "born again", not "conceived again".

Please Define sentience Lets go to the Good Book instead of the dictionary
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5
The Lord Knew us even before we were in the womb. Sentience
"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15;
How could the Holy Spirit ever fill anything but a person?
Again Sentience
"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2
The Lord recognizes the baby in the womb and helps it survive. Sentience.
"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14
Sentience Made in the image of God and being recognized as one of God's children. My definition back up by no dictionary man made but by the Word of God.
"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5
When we abort we take a servent from the Lord.
"Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One form us both within our mothers?" --Job 31:15
Yes The same God that form you in your mothers womb form the thousands of babies being aborted everyday.
"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15
I guess God is recognizing The Baby in His or Her"s Mother's womb as Sentience Why would he call?
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." --Psalm 51:5
Oh yes The sin that Adam and Eve commited for which we are saved by Jesus's shed blood. I guess God knows even in our Mothers womb we were charged with this sin until Jesus saved us. I guess we were sentience

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25
The Good Lord Knows the baby inside the Mothers womb is protected by the 6th commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill"
The Bible passages were taken from abortioninfo.net the comments after are by me. I was setience in my Mothers womb and so were you? Why destroy a Baby created in the image of God.
God Bless,

Proudly Pro Life JP Freeman
:memorial_
 

vergiss

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jimmyjack said:
Do not forget, for God anything is possible.
...that does not answer my question.

Proudly Pro Life JP Freem and co, the passages I supplied show that a baby gains it soul with his/her first breath. I addressed the physical presence of the future person in their mother's womb in my first post, yet you keep quoting scripture about it as if that somehow refutes the Bible's position on when the soul enters the body. Try a bit harder, please.
 
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