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God dammit, NASA

atrasicarius

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"Monster rocket" design unveiled by NASA - CBS News

Hey, I've got an idea! Instead of looking into new, more powerful, more efficient technologies for space exploration, let's just go spend more money on the exact same things we were doing 40 years ago. Progress. You're doing it wrong.
 
"Monster rocket" design unveiled by NASA - CBS News

Hey, I've got an idea! Instead of looking into new, more powerful, more efficient technologies for space exploration, let's just go spend more money on the exact same things we were doing 40 years ago. Progress. You're doing it wrong.

The shuttle was a step backwards.

The new rocket is more efficient, but there does not yet exist a different type of propulsion capable of reaching - and exiting - orbit. We need a new launch platform now, not at some unspecified point in the future when an unspecified technology becomes usable.
 
The shuttle was a step backwards.

The new rocket is more efficient, but there does not yet exist a different type of propulsion capable of reaching - and exiting - orbit. We need a new launch platform now, not at some unspecified point in the future when an unspecified technology becomes usable.

The shuttle was a step forward for its time, but that time was 30 years ago. As for a new launch vehicle now, why not give the contract to SpaceX or someone similar? We're never going to accomplish anything new with this old technology. It's way too expensive to make a moon base viable, and it's not nearly fast enough to take us further. Its only real use is to keep taking people to the ISS, which is a dead end in terms of space exploration.
 
The shuttle was a step forward for its time, but that time was 30 years ago. As for a new launch vehicle now, why not give the contract to SpaceX or someone similar? We're never going to accomplish anything new with this old technology. It's way too expensive to make a moon base viable, and it's not nearly fast enough to take us further. Its only real use is to keep taking people to the ISS, which is a dead end in terms of space exploration.

I agree NASA needs to develop newer technology, it feels like we've been stuck in the same place technologically wise for the past three decades.

Also, was that a TeamFourStar reference?
 
I agree NASA needs to develop newer technology, it feels like we've been stuck in the same place technologically wise for the past three decades.

Also, was that a TeamFourStar reference?

No. I don't know TeamFourStar.
 
The shuttle was a step forward for its time, but that time was 30 years ago. As for a new launch vehicle now, why not give the contract to SpaceX or someone similar? We're never going to accomplish anything new with this old technology. It's way too expensive to make a moon base viable, and it's not nearly fast enough to take us further. Its only real use is to keep taking people to the ISS, which is a dead end in terms of space exploration.

The point of the shuttle was to be cheaper because it would be reusable. It turned out not to be cheaper.

SpaceX is not new technology. SpaceX hasn't even caught up to the freaking Apollo program in terms of accomplishments, and you're talking about the future?

The problem is basic physics. It takes a certain amount of thrust to get to orbit. It takes more than that to leave orbit. It doesn't matter how fancy the technology is, it has to produce force. Lots of it. Newton's laws of motion become an issue with producing this much thrust. You have to accelerate something one direction so that the ship moves the other direction.

NASA, by the way, is working on more advanced propulsion systems. The next generation will probably be ion thrusters. These work great for interplanetary travel because they can give you small amounts of thrust over a long period of time. They can't get from the ground to orbit, though, so we still need rockets.
 
The point of the shuttle was to be cheaper because it would be reusable. It turned out not to be cheaper.

SpaceX is not new technology. SpaceX hasn't even caught up to the freaking Apollo program in terms of accomplishments, and you're talking about the future?

SpaceX is private sector. That's what the private sector is good at: Taking well established technologies and improving them. The government is good at funding new technologies that won't turn an immediate profit.

The problem is basic physics. It takes a certain amount of thrust to get to orbit. It takes more than that to leave orbit. It doesn't matter how fancy the technology is, it has to produce force. Lots of it. Newton's laws of motion become an issue with producing this much thrust. You have to accelerate something one direction so that the ship moves the other direction.

NASA, by the way, is working on more advanced propulsion systems. The next generation will probably be ion thrusters. These work great for interplanetary travel because they can give you small amounts of thrust over a long period of time. They can't get from the ground to orbit, though, so we still need rockets.

I am, in fact, aware of the basic physics problems. There are ways around them. With current or near current technology, a good solution would be ramjets or scramjets. You could have a two stage launch, where a carrier plane equipped with scramjets got you up to mach 6 or 7 and 30 or 40 kilometers, and then a second, rocket powered stage could get the rest of the way out of the atmosphere. Much more efficient than solid rocket boosters, and the whole system is reusable with no recovery required. Eventually, we'll want atmospheric ion drives or fusion drives, or alternatively, a space elevator. That's the sort of thing NASA should be putting money into, not decades old technologies that the private sector can handle.
 
Look, we can't just snap finger and fire ourselves on controlled nuclear blasts into space. Theres economic considerations etc that go into these decisions. ****, Nasa even bought some soviet rockets, theyre cheap and work damned good.
 
Look, we can't just snap finger and fire ourselves on controlled nuclear blasts into space. Theres economic considerations etc that go into these decisions. ****, Nasa even bought some soviet rockets, theyre cheap and work damned good.

Well, of course we can't. No one's put any money into researching that, have they? They're spending it all on rockets we could have built 40 years ago.
 
Well, of course we can't. No one's put any money into researching that, have they? They're spending it all on rockets we could have built 40 years ago.


But they get the job done, what's the point of awesome new technology that essentially costs more to do the same thing when were broke. My 93 accord arrives to the grocery store as well as a bughatti does. Theres little incentive to change the way it is.
 
But they get the job done, what's the point of awesome new technology that essentially costs more to do the same thing when were broke. My 93 accord arrives to the grocery store as well as a bughatti does. Theres little incentive to change the way it is.

The problem is, they don't get the job done. For one thing, it would only cost more while it was in development. Once it's actually in service, going into space would be comparable to flying cross country. For another thing, the range of our current technology is extremely limited. Even going to the moon is pushing it, and by cosmic standards, that's so close it's in our personal space. There's no way we're sending people to other planets with chemical rockets, let alone settling them.
 
The problem is, they don't get the job done. For one thing, it would only cost more while it was in development. Once it's actually in service, going into space would be comparable to flying cross country. For another thing, the range of our current technology is extremely limited. Even going to the moon is pushing it, and by cosmic standards, that's so close it's in our personal space. There's no way we're sending people to other planets with chemical rockets, let alone settling them.

What the holy hell are you on about? Going to space like flying across country? If you want to get cosmic about this humanity isnt even economically ready to get to mars. They know very well they cant get to mars on a chemical rocket, theyre not trying to get to mars... youd have to regear the whole economy to arrive there by any means. The issue is not the technology, develop it all you want, the organizational and logistical effort is where the stick gets stuck in the mud, theres no political will to put the change in necessary to do what youre envisioning.
 
What the holy hell are you on about? Going to space like flying across country? If you want to get cosmic about this humanity isnt even economically ready to get to mars. They know very well they cant get to mars on a chemical rocket, theyre not trying to get to mars... youd have to regear the whole economy to arrive there by any means. The issue is not the technology, develop it all you want, the organizational and logistical effort is where the stick gets stuck in the mud, theres no political will to put the change in necessary to do what youre envisioning.

There's no political will because it's an impossible task at present. The technology doesn't exist. Specifically, the technology needed is a fusion jet, where you start a fusion reaction and shoot one end out the back. Some sort of ion drive could potentially work as well, but you'd need a fusion reactor to power it anyway. Since there are types of fusion that don't produce any radiation, it would be safe to use in atmosphere, which is where the part about being as cheap as flying cross country comes from. The free market will never get there on its own, though, because there's no immediate profit to be made. So that's what NASA should be putting money into, instead of wasting it on things the private sector can do perfectly well.
 
VASIMR could get us to Mars in 40 days going roughly 120,000 (ish) mph but it is still in development. Chemical engines are obsolete in terms of going anywhere but the moon. New technology must be developed.
 
"Monster rocket" design unveiled by NASA - CBS News

Hey, I've got an idea! Instead of looking into new, more powerful, more efficient technologies for space exploration, let's just go spend more money on the exact same things we were doing 40 years ago. Progress. You're doing it wrong.

Try not to be so fast to damn what could be great news. If you would do just a little research you would find U.S. Army Ballistic Missile Agency used a modified Jupiter-C Army rocket with Explorer 1, (our first Satellite) into orbit back in 1958.

To do it they used what was them a Air Force Missile and Test Center at Cape Canaveral, Florida.

Since there has been a lot of crossover technology between the Space Agency NASA and our Military.

What we need is someone as bold as JFK was when he called for the U.S. to be first on the moon.
 
Try not to be so fast to damn what could be great news. If you would do just a little research you would find U.S. Army Ballistic Missile Agency used a modified Jupiter-C Army rocket with Explorer 1, (our first Satellite) into orbit back in 1958.

To do it they used what was them a Air Force Missile and Test Center at Cape Canaveral, Florida.

Since there has been a lot of crossover technology between the Space Agency NASA and our Military.

What we need is someone as bold as JFK was when he called for the U.S. to be first on the moon.

Not sure how that's relevant. Are you suggesting that this thing has military applications or something?
 
There's no political will because it's an impossible task at present. The technology doesn't exist. Specifically, the technology needed is a fusion jet, where you start a fusion reaction and shoot one end out the back. Some sort of ion drive could potentially work as well, but you'd need a fusion reactor to power it anyway. Since there are types of fusion that don't produce any radiation, it would be safe to use in atmosphere, which is where the part about being as cheap as flying cross country comes from. The free market will never get there on its own, though, because there's no immediate profit to be made. So that's what NASA should be putting money into, instead of wasting it on things the private sector can do perfectly well.

Your "fusion jet" idea is... ugh I don't even know where to start. You can't maintain a fusion reaction with one end open to atmosphere. You'd have to run it as a sort of heat-exchanger and use heated air as the thrust mechanism, and that would end up even less efficient than a rocket. And that's not even discussing the issue of fusion not even being energy-positive for us yet, let alone miniaturized enough to fit on a launch vehicle. You say "this is what they should be working on" as if only one thing can be done at a time. Fusion is being worked on. It's not even ready for power generation, let alone thrust generation. Researching fusion engines right now would be like researching electric cars before you've invented a generator that works.

Just let the actual scientists figure it out, ok? Being an armchair quarterback is annoying enough, being an armchair space ship designer is just... arrogant. Are you an aerospace engineer? Do you think the folks at NASA haven't spent, I don't know, decades thinking up ideas and toying around with them? Fusion is being worked on. Scramjets are being worked on.

The SLS is a heavy-lifter. We need a heavy-lifter to build a platform to launch interplanetary missions. That's the eventual plan: rockets to build and get to Space Station, assemble and launch interplanetary mission from Space Station. Ion drives might be the propulsion method of choice.
 
The Russians say they have nuclear propulsion down and designed. Theyd need quite a deal of funds to take whats on paper and make it real, however and wouldnt engage in a mars trip alone as it's not economically feasible for any single country.
 
Your "fusion jet" idea is... ugh I don't even know where to start. You can't maintain a fusion reaction with one end open to atmosphere. You'd have to run it as a sort of heat-exchanger and use heated air as the thrust mechanism, and that would end up even less efficient than a rocket. And that's not even discussing the issue of fusion not even being energy-positive for us yet, let alone miniaturized enough to fit on a launch vehicle. You say "this is what they should be working on" as if only one thing can be done at a time. Fusion is being worked on. It's not even ready for power generation, let alone thrust generation. Researching fusion engines right now would be like researching electric cars before you've invented a generator that works.

That was called an oversimplification. What you need is a magnetic bottle where one portion of the magnetic field is weak enough to allow plasma with a high enough energy to escape, shaped to direct the thrust out the back. I generally don't like tokamak designs, but they might work better for thrust than for power generation. Alternatively, a spherical bottle or something similar could be used with lasers to ignite the fusion, like in the NIF.

In terms of power generation, people are going about it in entirely the wrong way. If you want to get power out of a reaction, you don't start with five story tall electromagnets or terawatt range lasers. The problem is, colleges are getting lots and lots of money for that kind of research, so they don't really want to look into alternatives. Two more promising designs are the Polywell and the Dense Plasma Focus. The Polywell uses ring shaped electromagnets arranged in a cubical formation. When you inject ions into it, they bounce back and forth through the exact center of the field, creating a very high particle density at that point. Much less power intensive than the Tokamak. The Dense Plasma Focus design uses a chamber filled with gas. Sound waves are fired through the chamber, creating very high densities at the peaks, so that the fusion occurs in pulses.

And did you read the article? This rocket is going to cost at least 3 billion a year. They're not gonna have any money left over for this kind of research after that.

Just let the actual scientists figure it out, ok? Being an armchair quarterback is annoying enough, being an armchair space ship designer is just... arrogant. Are you an aerospace engineer? Do you think the folks at NASA haven't spent, I don't know, decades thinking up ideas and toying around with them? Fusion is being worked on. Scramjets are being worked on.

Fusion, I've already covered. I'm hopeful that usable fusion reactors will be developed before the end of the decade, but they're not going to come from any of the big fusion research projects. Scramjets are more like a pet project. There's been a few experiments into them, but they're definitely not getting the kind of money that these rockets are going to get. If some serious money was put into them, I would expect to see results in under five years. Honestly, even ramjets could work, and that technology's been available for decades.

And no, I'm not an aerospace engineer. Just a physicist. This is, in fact, something I've put a fair amount of thought into.

The SLS is a heavy-lifter. We need a heavy-lifter to build a platform to launch interplanetary missions. That's the eventual plan: rockets to build and get to Space Station, assemble and launch interplanetary mission from Space Station. Ion drives might be the propulsion method of choice.

It'll never happen. The ISS cost something on the order of $130 billion, and it's nowhere near capable of supporting interplanetary launches. You just can't build that kind of infrastructure in orbit with chemical rockets. As for ion drives, they work fine for probes, but for people, you're gonna need something a little more powerful. Remember, the longer the voyage is going to take, the more supplies you're going to need to bring, which makes your ship heavier, and so on, and so forth. Also, if you're going to stick people in interplanetary space for months on end, you're going to need some serious cosmic ray defenses. I suppose you could manage it with a fission reactor, assuming VASIMR gets developed enough, but fusion would make things a whole lot simpler, and a whole lot less expensive.
 
And fusion is being worked on in like nine different ways.
 
Something interesting I discovered just now. As of May, the polywell model wb-8, operating under a navy contract, is "operating as designed and generating positive results." They're being pretty vague about it, but I wouldn't be overly surprised if they've achieved break-even when they release their final results.
 
What the holy hell are you on about? Going to space like flying across country? If you want to get cosmic about this humanity isnt even economically ready to get to mars. They know very well they cant get to mars on a chemical rocket, theyre not trying to get to mars... youd have to regear the whole economy to arrive there by any means. The issue is not the technology, develop it all you want, the organizational and logistical effort is where the stick gets stuck in the mud, theres no political will to put the change in necessary to do what youre envisioning.

Maybe not political will, but there's certainly profit in space. If nothing else, rich people could party it up zero-g style in a space station hotel.

Mark my words. It will happen.
 
We can't develop new technology until someone discovers or invents new technology. You can devote the entirety of our national wealth to the effort, and it won't happen any faster.
We are stuck here on this planet. Maybe we should take better care of it?
 
How did we get three pages in without people mentioning space elevators? There's a couple of private things going on about it in the US (mainly either as a byproduct of developing material tech, or as a hobbyist competition to make the elevators themselves), but it's largely quiet - there are a few phenominal issues to overcome (we don't have the materials, we don't have a fully-functional way to climb the tower, we don't have a way to protect it against debris/deliberate impact damage...), but if it worked it would be a rather nice revenue stream for the owners - and would largely eliminate the need for clunky great rockets, once construction is done.

EDIT: In fact, a little bit more nosing tells me Japan was making strong thoughts about it... in 2008. Can't find much else beyond that, so presumably it crashed... for now.
 
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