German Chancellor Scholz says the quiet part out loud

[Tigerace117]

So you choose the Taliban?

The Afghan people, as previously stated, saw the government we created as completely illegitimate.

When even the Taliban look better, you have a problem.

 

[craig]

The Afghan people, as previously stated, saw the government we created as completely illegitimate.

When even the Taliban look better, you have a problem.

No. The Taliban just kill anyone that disagrees or girls that go to school. Kind of like Putin.

 

[Tigerace117]

On the contrary. Giving in to any of Russia's demands on Ukraine is what would strengthen other tyrants. By giving Russia a single thing it asks for, it sends the message that violence, conquest, and terrorism against their neighbors are the road to getting what they want from the west.

And the US isn't "hyperfixated" on Russia. It is taking strategic advantage of an enemy's miscalculation, as it should, and it is advising against negotiating with terrorists, which is the only responsible thing to do.

There is nothing that strengthens tyrants more than the US continually rolling over for them time and again. Which we have done for regimes everywhere from Venezuela to Saudi Arabia yet continue to wail on about Russia.

The US absolutely is hyper fixated on Russia, as shown by how its even turning to Russian allies like Venezuela and trying to appease them.

Oh, and the US negotiated with terrorists all the time, so not sure where you are getting that last part.

 

[Tigerace117]

No. The Taliban just kill anyone that disagrees or girls that go to school. Kind of like Putin.

Dude, the Afghan government collapsed practically the nanosecond we said we were leaving. That shows nobody there saw it as legitimate.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

There is nothing that strengthens tyrants more than the US continually rolling over for them time and again. Which we have done for regimes everywhere from Venezuela to Saudi Arabia yet continue to wail on about Russia.

The US absolutely is hyper fixated on Russia, as shown by how its even turning to Russian allies like Venezuela and trying to appease them.

Oh, and the US negotiated with terrorists all the time, so not sure where you are getting that last part.

Heck the US harbored terrorists in Iraq (PKK and PJAK)

 

[craig]

Dude, the Afghan government collapsed practically the nanosecond we said we were leaving. That shows nobody there saw it as legitimate.

After Trump surrendered to the Taliban and withdrew almost all our troops. They could see the writing on the wall.

 

[Tigerace117]

After Trump surrendered to the Taliban and withdrew almost all our troops. They could see the writing on the wall.

Even the DRA lasted longer on its own than our client state.

 

[Tangmo]

Who better than Germany or possibly Japan, to share with the world that a wartime pariah can return to the international fold
I see the chancellors overture as a diplomatic carrot to entice Russia into a speedier resolution of Ukraine conflict
Nothing I have read indicates this is other than appropriate diplomatic discussion

That's really feeble and weak.

Because German energy giants want their Russia back.

Big Bucks.

Scholz is trying to redirect Putin out of Ukraine and into the Big Bucks again for both German economic and political elites and Putin and his elites.

Which is a major reason Biden rolled out the proverbial red carpet for French Pres. Macron who after courting Putin all year has quit on him. Biden made it clear he considers France the leader of Europe in these times. This too is because it's the turn of UK to be dissembled until further notice, although the new PM visited Ukraine to say UK will continue to do what it can, which isn't much at this point. Indeed, in the leadup to Macron's long scheduled visit to Washington extensive and intense Paris-Washington talks got the two together on the same page.

Putin conversely is hoping he gets his German energy money makers back and that at least some others in Europe will follow. Get some business going again in Europe as absurd as it can sound at this point. Yet some need of Russian energy is clear. Plus Germans and Russians are saps for each other. Putin even wants Scholz to use German muscle get him into the investigation into the Nord Stream explosions. So as usual this German-Russian thing really sucks.

 

[Tangmo]

Is this surprising? The germans need what Russia has.

And Russia needs the German money making energy giants that are sitting around the in the Bavarian Alps twiddling their thumbs and getting impatient for things to blow over.

Germans and Russians have been fools for one another for a long time.

Russian commodity resources and German extraction technology plus pipelines are the perfect fit as far as each of 'em is concerned.

More Russian pipelines to China are ten years away if not longer. Repairing Nord Stream is a year to 16 months away instead, and NS 1&2 flow into Europe through Germany.

Back to square one seems to be sounding good in Moscow and Berlin these dayze. It's just that Putin would have to swallow hard to get from here to there. And Berlin needs to get around Brussels and Washington which is equally tough to do, to include now Paris.

It's going to be a longer winter than originally thought. With lots of cold -- shoulders especially.

 

[justabubba]

And Russia needs the German money making energy giants that are sitting around the in the Bavarian Alps twiddling their thumbs and getting impatient for things to blow over.

Germans and Russians have been fools for one another for a long time.

Russian commodity resources and German extraction technology plus pipelines are the perfect fit as far as each of 'em is concerned.

More Russian pipelines to China are ten years away if not longer. Repairing Nord Stream is a year to 16 months away instead, and NS 1&2 flow into Europe through Germany.

Back to square one seems to be sounding good in Moscow and Berlin these dayze. It's just that Putin would have to swallow hard to get from here to there. And Berlin needs to get around Brussels and Washington which is equally tough to do, to include now Paris.

It's going to be a longer winter than originally thought. With lots of cold -- shoulders especially.

the tide of ukrainian refugees in EU may be one reason germany, having absorbed one million plus, would want an expedited resolution to the war.

at 2.8 million, russia has accommodated the most refugees, poland is second at 1.5 million. followed by germany. of the remaining balance of the 7.6 million total in europe, the other nations each welcomed under a quarter million, excepting czechia's 462,000
given russia's hurting economy, it would also benefit from no longer needing to take in and provide for the tremendous number of refugees

germany could very well be self serving in its diplomatic approach, but if successful, it would be a win for all parties ... with the possible exception of putin

 

[multivita-man]

Which is a major reason Biden rolled out the proverbial red carpet for French Pres. Macron who after courting Putin all year has quit on him. Biden made it clear he considers France the leader of Europe in these times. This too is because it's the turn of UK to be dissembled until further notice, although the new PM visited Ukraine to say UK will continue to do what it can, which isn't much at this point. Indeed, in the leadup to Macron's long scheduled visit to Washington extensive and intense Paris-Washington talks got the two together on the same page.

Basically, yes, I agree. And while I welcome this, it makes me nervous. I respect France, but France is only marginally more reliable than Germany. All these years we heard the Euros say that America pushes Europe around and that we use Europe and that Europe can start taking care of itself. Yet when it gets right down to it...they can't. I mean Finland pretty much called it the other day. Europe wants a free ride.

Putin conversely is hoping he gets his German energy money makers back and that at least some others in Europe will follow. Get some business going again in Europe as absurd as it can sound at this point. Yet some need of Russian energy is clear. Plus Germans and Russians are saps for each other. Putin even wants Scholz to use German muscle get him into the investigation into the Nord Stream explosions. So as usual this German-Russian thing really sucks.

I mean German leaders are in on the $. Gerhard Schroeder was on the board of Gazprom. Had no problem watching Ukrainians cook in the oven.

 

[Tangmo]

Basically, yes, I agree. And while I welcome this, it makes me nervous. I respect France, but France is only marginally more reliable than Germany. All these years we heard the Euros say that America pushes Europe around and that we use Europe and that Europe can start taking care of itself. Yet when it gets right down to it...they can't. I mean Finland pretty much called it the other day. Europe wants a free ride.

Yeah, UK being the premier US ally in Europe (Japan in East Asia), whichever nation on the continent wants to be the big dog on the block has to get Washington behind it, or perhaps, get Washington out front of it to clear the path. During the Cold War it was West Germany and post CW it was Germany which was in either time the economic powerhouse of Europe. During the CW France was its eccentric self and while it did withdraw from the NATO council of national leaders, it remained on the Military Committee. With the exception of Vietnam and then Iraq under GW, France was right there in area military operations to include a major maneuver role for its divisions in Desert Storm.

Merkel and whoever the French president was, they were a duo toward Russia and were Putin's BFF of Europe post CW during Merkel's 16 years. The two would go to Putin in crises but only when Putin gave the cloaked high sign that he was satisfied with his position and the two needed to go meet with him to appear to be the peacemakers. Post Merkel however Scholz and Macron prefer to meet Putin individually and take different approaches with differing priorities, France being more concessionary despite Ukraine.

The Sound of Bullshit.


The Dynamic Duo of Germany and France making their regular pilgrimage together to the Kremlin has gone bust. Indeed, Macron cancelled his pre Washington visit phone call with Scholz in which the two were supposed to plot and scheme together yuck yuck. So Scholz called Putin instead to make headlines of his own and which mean nothing except that Putin reasserted what he's wanted all along and can't have. Scholz oatmeal official statement after the call was entirely blah blah blah we can all get along someday.

So going forward in Washington France is in tight and Germany is isolated and distrusted in the WH and in the Kremlin. Russia is distrusted -- and held in contempt -- by everyone throughout the West. Not much in this right now for me to complain about (as if anyone would listen anyway).

 

[Rogue Valley]

Europe is under tremendous economic pressure. They need Russia to keep the pipelines flowing. Not justification for "getting in bed with Putin". Just an observation.

There is only 1 pipeline partially open, running through Ukraine.

The vast proportion of exported Russian oil is now seaborne.... which is why the new price-caps.

 

[Rogue Valley]

That's really feeble and weak. Because German energy giants want their Russia back.

I agree. Scholz has chronically overpromised on weapons for Ukraine and chronically underdelivered.

 

[multivita-man]

Only an idiot would believe the US had any real intent to bring democracy to Iraq or Afghanistan

And yet Iraq now has a republican form of government, and Afghanistan did until the Taliban drove us out.

If you want to make the point that the US acted out of its own interests, sure, but that doesn't mean that we didn't want to provide them something in return - we did. Our failure was in underestimating how complex that would be, and in doing so, we went into a situation not understanding the history, the culture, the political complexities, the logistical difficulties we'd face. We got really cocky (imagine that, coming from America, right?) and as a result, we failed the Iraqis, the Afghans, and a lot of other people. We also seriously destabilized the region in the years afterward - I get all that.

But even in 'good wars' countries always have interests and tend to serve those. That was the case in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War. Interests aren't always wrong, either. We didn't want to live in a world where democratic-minded people had their lifestyle impeded and their politics dictated to by non-democratic countries, and whether you realize it or not, you and the rest of us sitting in the privacy and comforts of our own homes and using this modern technology are likely the beneficiaries of that struggle and the associated outcomes.

I won't deny that we exploited a lot of people along the way, just as China exploits people in other countries, just like the Soviet Union did. Capitalism is unfortunately highly predatory and exploitative. I personally would favor a radical reformation of the global economic system, as the model we have now (mindless, endless growth) is an unsustainable dinosaur that's destined to collapse. I'd rather have a fairer, more balanced relationship with poorer countries and would be willing to sacrifice convenience and some standard of living to get there.

Still, all of that being said, I'm still glad Allied soldiers liberated France and the Jews. I'm glad we defeated the Japanese Empire and drove them out of China and most of Asia. I thought the invasion of Iraq was a mistake even before it happened for the same reasons most of George H.W. Bush's own staff reasoned (and which is why they never attempted to take on Baghdad, even though they were in position to), but there were good intentions and not all the outcomes were bad - many were of course, but not all.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Being indifferent to said atrocities when we are the ones responsible only to rage about them when someone else does it is pretty ****ing hypocritical

You’re being very selfish when you attempt to make every single thread about this. Nobody wants to talk about this in every single thread. And when you do this, when you try to derail every single thread you participate in and when you personally attack other forum posters you’re breaking the forum rules.

 

[Tigerace117]

You’re being very selfish when you attempt to make every single thread about this. Nobody wants to talk about this in every single thread. And when you do this, when you try to derail every single thread you participate in and when you personally attack other forum posters you’re breaking the forum rules.

Oh look, another pathetic round of personal attacks in lieu of an actual argument from you.

Maybe you can answer the question....

The world hopped right back in bed with America after our invasion of Iraq.

How is this any different?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

And yet Iraq now has a republican form of government, and Afghanistan did until the Taliban drove us out.

If you want to make the point that the US acted out of its own interests, sure, but that doesn't mean that we didn't want to provide them something in return - we did. Our failure was in underestimating how complex that would be, and in doing so, we went into a situation not understanding the history, the culture, the political complexities, the logistical difficulties we'd face. We got really cocky (imagine that, coming from America, right?) and as a result, we failed the Iraqis, the Afghans, and a lot of other people. We also seriously destabilized the region in the years afterward - I get all that.

But even in 'good wars' countries always have interests and tend to serve those. That was the case in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War. Interests aren't always wrong, either. We didn't want to live in a world where democratic-minded people had their lifestyle impeded and their politics dictated to by non-democratic countries, and whether you realize it or not, you and the rest of us sitting in the privacy and comforts of our own homes and using this modern technology are likely the beneficiaries of that struggle and the associated outcomes.

I won't deny that we exploited a lot of people along the way, just as China exploits people in other countries, just like the Soviet Union did. Capitalism is unfortunately highly predatory and exploitative. I personally would favor a radical reformation of the global economic system, as the model we have now (mindless, endless growth) is an unsustainable dinosaur that's destined to collapse. I'd rather have a fairer, more balanced relationship with poorer countries and would be willing to sacrifice convenience and some standard of living to get there.

Still, all of that being said, I'm still glad Allied soldiers liberated France and the Jews. I'm glad we defeated the Japanese Empire and drove them out of China and most of Asia. I thought the invasion of Iraq was a mistake even before it happened for the same reasons most of George H.W. Bush's own staff reasoned (and which is why they never attempted to take on Baghdad, even though they were in position to), but there were good intentions and not all the outcomes were bad - many were of course, but not all.

Democracy was the last excuse for the invasion after WMD failed, after ties to terrorism failed the Bush administration went with bringing democracy to Iraq.

The US did not want it at that time Sistani used the new reason for the invasion to force elections, which the US was ready and its candidates lost

 

[multivita-man]

You’re being very selfish when you attempt to make every single thread about this. Nobody wants to talk about this in every single thread. And when you do this, when you try to derail every single thread you participate in and when you personally attack other forum posters you’re breaking the forum rules.

That's really the rub.

I have no problem pointing out that the US behaves hypocritically, but the same unoriginal copy/paste comments that don't change from one post to the next...gets friggin old. It's like a Pavlovian response.

 

[Tangmo]

I mean German leaders are in on the $. Gerhard Schroeder was on the board of Gazprom. Had no problem watching Ukrainians cook in the oven.

Schroederovsky said with a straight face several years ago "Putin is the perfect democrat."

As a former German chancellor (defeated by Merkle) his status as a Putin Pet is expensive however. As chairman of the Nord Stream 2 investors committee he's hauled in Eur 600,000 annually since 2006. Schroeder is also on the board of Rosneft. Putin even flew to St. Petersburg for Schroeder's 70th birthday party. When Putin invaded Ukraine Schroederovsky hollered at NATO, EU, USA as if our guys were the bad guys.

So Scholz went to the German parliament that agreed to close Schroeder's former chancellor's office that was sapping Eur 500,000 annually for a puffed up staff. The Parliament said it acted because Schroeder no longer was serving German interests as a statesman-former chancellor acting to benefit the fatherland. (Merkel's former chancellor's office is said to be nearly twice the budget item.)

Schroeder's office wasn't in the Bundestag however -- Schroeder located it on the prestigious Unter den Linden Boulevard and across from the Russian embassy. Indeed, it's always been a challenge to figure which offices his staff spent more time in. The brazen and shameless Schroederovsky is suing the parliament in a case still pending. Better late than never I'd guess after Schroeder in his final dayze as chancellor signed Germany on with Nord Stream 1&2 then fled to Russia to work for Nord Stream AG. (From the moment Merkel succeeded Schroeder as chancellor -- for the next 16 years -- she was a pom pom girl for Nord Stream.)

Scholz tried unsuccessfully to expel Schroederovsky from the Social Democratic Party that just couldn't get on board with it, so Schroeder continues to be a largely unwelcome party member.

Energy giants of Germany and France evacuated Russia when it invaded Ukraine but they left their equipment and buildings in place. They in fact suspended their Russia operations rather than pull out completely. Now two German biggies that operated in Russia have crashed -- Uniper and BASF Wintershall Dea. Each of 'em was a Nord Stream coinvestor too. The German government has bought Uniper and put it to work building two natural gas conversion terminals on its Baltic coast for Eur 1bn. A private corporation is building two more. Wintershall Dea which had been the largest privately owned energy corporation in Europe is selling itself off piece by piece. Engie of France which was a third coinvestor in Nord Stream was the last of the energy majors in Russia to drag its arse out of it.

Nord Stream getting blown up has left Schroeder speechless.

 

[Rogue Valley]

the tide of ukrainian refugees in EU may be one reason germany, having absorbed one million plus, would want an expedited resolution to the war.

at 2.8 million, russia has accommodated the most refugees

The vast proportion of Ukrainain "refugees" in Russia were involuntarily deported and had to pass through "filtration" camps. Many are still languishing in rebel/Russian prisons.

Moscow has kidnapped many hundreds of Ukrainian children from Mariupol and Kherson and deported them to Russia for adoption.

 

[Schrott]

I agree. Scholz has chronically overpromised on weapons for Ukraine and chronically underdelivered.

You know that you are wrong, but it does not matter to you, makes you kinde fishy, don't you think so.
While in the US the fan club of the GOP is chanting, Putin, Putin and are threatening to cut of the aid to Ukraine.

 

[lwf]

Off Target: The Conduct of the War and Civilian Casualties in Iraq: II. CONDUCT OF THE AIR WAR

Really?


Also note that in Fallujah the US used white phosphorus as a direct fire weapon, which is a war crime

Fallujah during the Iraq War - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

US forces do not use napalm or white phosphorus as weapons. And even if they did in Iraq, so what? What the US did 20 years ago doesn't excuse what Russia is doing now.

 

[lwf]

There is nothing that strengthens tyrants more than the US continually rolling over for them time and again. Which we have done for regimes everywhere from Venezuela to Saudi Arabia yet continue to wail on about Russia.

The US absolutely is hyper fixated on Russia, as shown by how its even turning to Russian allies like Venezuela and trying to appease them.

Oh, and the US negotiated with terrorists all the time, so not sure where you are getting that last part.

All the more reason for Ukraine not to roll over and give in to a single one of Russia's demands.

 

[Tigerace117]

All the more reason for Ukraine not to roll over and give in to a single one of Russia's demands.

Then they are going to have a lot more people die for nothing.