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German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end? [W:539]

Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

No, its a pro Germany topic. There are attempts in USA to attack our freedom. And thats not in german interests.

Your opinion is noted....

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss....
- The Who
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

FYI - there's an old saying that goes "when you have the country by the balls the heart and mind are soon to follow". When the Germany economy is dependent on russian gas, do you think Putin will not use that lever as necessary to advance his own goals?

And that would not be the case when we depend on american LNG?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Your opinion is noted....

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss....
- The Who

I think the main problem is, that USA is at its end as global power. It gets pushed back at all fronts and now reached the stage, where it gets more and more erratic. Germany openly stands against that rubbish and that triggers Trump.

In the end its absolute clear that no nation can allow a foreign power to dictate its energy politics. So either USA stops its blackmail attempts or this 75 year alliance ends.

Thats not a bad thing either, doesnt mean our nations would be enemies. Just readjust relations or as Merkel said, readjust to the new realities.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Thats nice that USA doesnt want that. Too bad thats not the case. Germany wont be dependend and energy politics of Germany are decided in Berlin. The moment USA sanctions our internal decissions would be a hostile act and would leave us no other option than striking back. That former alliance would be automaticly at an end then.

There are two who can play that game. UsA sells F 35 to Saudi Arabia. Germany doesnt want that. We have developed a radar system that can detect F 35. What hinders us to sell it to Iran or Russia then?

As i said, im sure you agree that any sanctions against internal german interests must be answered accordingly to secure our independence and freedom.

But of course its not about that. Its just business. UsA doesnt get its ****ty LNG aold and now wants force others to buy it with mafia methods.

We wont buy it.

Nobody ever thinks they are going to be the one over the barrel. That’s always something that happens to the other country until, whoops, what do you know, you wind up up a creek without a paddle.

Lol “hostile”. Because teaming up with KGB Vlad isn’t hostile at all :roll:

Oh, I’m sure you are more than happy to sell to Iran or Russia given that it’s “just business”. It makes your attempts at lecturing us about ethics particularly funny though.

Without the US Germany would be neither independent nor free in the first place.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

I've never been to Germany so I'll take your word for it, but I'll leave youi with this - you underestimate Putin at your own peril. They weren't the reason, or even the main reason, Hillary Clinton lost to Trump, but they were still able to penetrate into the US elections at SOME level...
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Nobody ever thinks they are going to be the one over the barrel. That’s always something that happens to the other country until, whoops, what do you know, you wind up up a creek without a paddle.

Lol “hostile”. Because teaming up with KGB Vlad isn’t hostile at all :roll:

Oh, I’m sure you are more than happy to sell to Iran or Russia given that it’s “just business”. It makes your attempts at lecturing us about ethics particularly funny though.

Without the US Germany would be neither independent nor free in the first place.

Germany is the 2nd most powerful western country in the world, i think we do fine on our own.

You overestimate your influence greatly.

We dont team up with Russia, we purchase gas. Whats your problem honestly with a free market? What hinders you to offer your lng in Germany and compete? Why do you want take german customers chouce away and push for communism? If your product is better or cheaper, germans will buy it.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

The Nordstream discussion sounds as if Germany is buying gas for the first time and only from Russia.
The German gas market has been supplied mainly from Norway, Holland and Russia for decades. The Russian share of supplies through pipelines is about 33%.

Natural gas supply in Germany

In order to reduce the dependence of Germany and Europe on Russian gas, the TAP (Trans Adriatic Pipeline) has been under construction since 2015.

Trans Adriatic Pipeline

The discussion arose when Trump wanted to broker American LNG to Germany and Europe. However, since he has nothing to offer in terms of energy markets in Europe, he raised this to a state policy level. He is building up a threat scenario that portrays Russia as an evil power, and only American LNG can save Germany from ruin. Because his "Big Deal" did not work, he is threatening with sanctions.
I would say: The only "Big Deal" Trump does every day is in the toilet bowl. ;)
 
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Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

The Nordstream discussion sounds as if Germany is buying gas for the first time and only from Russia.
The German gas market has been supplied mainly from Norway, Holland and Russia for decades. The Russian share of supplies through pipelines is about 33%.

Natural gas supply in Germany

In order to reduce the dependence of Germany and Europe on Russian gas, the TAP (Trans Adriatic Pipeline) has been under construction since 2015.

Trans Adriatic Pipeline

The discussion arose when Trump wanted to broker American LNG to Germany and Europe. However, since he has nothing to offer in terms of energy markets in Europe, he raised this to a state policy level. He is building up a threat scenario that portrays Russia as an evil power, and only American LNG can save Germany from ruin. Because his "Big Deal" did not work, he is threatening with sanctions.
I would say: The only "Big Deal" Trump does every day is in the toilet bowl. ;)

Exactly, and people look through this very easily here. Media uphold the mafia methods USA try now to bully allies into buying their overprized ****.

The thing is...and thats the worst part. Some americans dont even understand anymore why another nation reacts infuriated when they try to meedle into their internal affairs with hostile acts.

I mean how deluded must one be to not umderstand that?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Thanks to Trump, the reputation of the uSA has rapidly declined worldwide. Too often he has simply broken off existing contracts without good reason. Nobody takes a president like that seriously anymore. And with the onset of the corona crisis, he has exposed himself and his country to ridicule. The daily press conferences were the best daily soap I've ever seen. There was even Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf (Comical Ali) more credible.

Europe thinks long into the future and not until the next re-election. Of course, national interests are also important, but in the end, all countries together are continuing to build Europe.

Most people forget that the EU was founded in the 1950s as an economic area (Montan Union). It was always just a matter of coordinating the flow of goods and economic activity - while retaining state sovereignty. Any threat of sanctions against a single country - in this case Germany - is futile. Because then he has to extend these sanctions to the entire EU, since we have free movement of goods within the EU.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Nobody ever thinks they are going to be the one over the barrel. That’s always something that happens to the other country until, whoops, what do you know, you wind up up a creek without a paddle.

Lol “hostile”. Because teaming up with KGB Vlad isn’t hostile at all :roll:

Oh, I’m sure you are more than happy to sell to Iran or Russia given that it’s “just business”. It makes your attempts at lecturing us about ethics particularly funny though.

Without the US Germany would be neither independent nor free in the first place.

Germans as a people exist since millenia. We defended our freedom against Rome, the Huns, Vikings, Muslims, Napoleon and have proven to be quite capable fighters.

Look, our two nations are allied since roughly 75 years now. For decades Germany and USA stood side by side. You helped us after WW II, when we needed to get up again. We helped you after 911. We share security and culture. Germans are one of biggest groups of americans.

Now in evry alliance there are points one can argue with each other. You want that we change certain things, we want that you change certain things.

We could have sat down, discuss it out and find a solution. But Trump chose to insult us, threaten us, degrade us. And then you wonder when we dont do anything that you want? Do you know what selfrespect is? Do you expect we stop a pipeline project because USA threatens us with sanctions, in our own country? And then expect we stop it and buy your LNG?

Its a honest question, but do you honestly believe it would work like that?
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

The German - America relations are now at an absolute low and it will be interesting how things can return to normal.

Until 4 years ago Germany was US closest ally. As 2nd most powerful nation of the western block, the german american alliance was seen as crucial to solve many world conflicts and problems.

Since Trump this changed completly. The pipeline project Nordstream II now brings it into a formerly unknown level of hostility.

USA was the pipeline, which is completed by 97% to stop. USA claims it would make Germany dependend on russian gas. Which is not true, since Germany still would have evry option to buy from elswhere.

The fact is, USA wants to sell american LNG to Germany, which is 30% more expensive, must be liquified before transport with enormous energy consumption, shipped over the atlantic and needs also enormous energy consumption to be stored in Germany in special tanks. Getting gas from Russia through a pipeline is simply more cost effective and efficient.

Another factor is, that Germany doesnt really want depend on energy that could be cut off from Trump in his typical erratic behavior. In other words, USA under Trump are not seen as trustworthy enough to fullfill treaty obligations.

The biggest issue is, that it is absolute unacceptable for Germany to allow USA to hurt German freedom and souvereignity. It simply is not americas business with whome Germany makes energy deals with.

USA put sanctions against a swiss ship company that laid the pipes on the sea floor, which blocked finalisation of the construction. A russian ship now arrived here to complete the project and USA threatens now more sanctions, this time targeting even german officials and evry company involved in the project and it appears this threat was what crossed the red line.

Germany prepares to install the EU wide blocking statute, which means companies are banned to follow the american laws on European soil. On the same time Germany prepares EU counter sanctions to any american officials involved in this sanctions. This means US senators would be locked out of global payment systems, their assets frozen.

It is crucial for Germany to draw this red line, because if we follow through and bow the knee, we would be simply an american vasall. If you bend to blackmail once, you will be the eternal victim.

The strange effect this has in Germany is, that all parties, even the Greens unite behind the decission to completle the pipeline, no matter what. There was strong internal oppossition in the German government against the project. American blackmailing
changed that, since all parties from far right AfD to far left Die Linke unite behind it against an outside foe.

If you dont know it better you could think there are elements in the american government who follow Putins will.

The interesting thing is, how this will end. Because on this level its now a game of chicken. Germany can not stop the pipeline without losing face. So what we will most likely will see is a complete breakdown of relations or omehow both nations find a backdoor agreement, that the pipeline is completed and there will be solutions on other fields of disagreements.

Americanswho justify this entire thing i might remember one thing, would you accept that behavior yourself? if a foreign power tries to intervene in your internal matters? if you answer this with a no, then you know what your side should be.

Buy your energy from whomever suits you. Your memory, however, is pretty short.

It was the US that kept Soviet armor from rolling through the Fulda Gap during the Cold War. Without us, you'd be speaking Russian now. If you think Putin won't turn the gas off, good luck. You have a handful of tanks that can't cross most of your bridges - they are targets. Maybe you can block the roads with BMW's. At some point, Russia will come for you. As I said, good luck. I'm not in favor of saving your asses again. You don't value your freedom sufficiently to accept the responsibilities that come with it.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Buy your energy from whomever suits you. Your memory, however, is pretty short.

It was the US that kept Soviet armor from rolling through the Fulda Gap during the Cold War. Without us, you'd be speaking Russian now. If you think Putin won't turn the gas off, good luck. You have a handful of tanks that can't cross most of your bridges - they are targets. Maybe you can block the roads with BMW's. At some point, Russia will come for you. As I said, good luck. I'm not in favor of saving your asses again. You don't value your freedom sufficiently to accept the responsibilities that come with it.


Im from eastern Germany, my parents and grandparents grew up there. None of them speaks russian. So keep your rubbish propaganda for yourself. Thank you.

As for the rest, we dont share your paranoia about Russia in Germany, its a weak economy country with rotten infrastructure and no functional army.

Germany is one of the richest nations on this planet, leading in science and technology and a nuclear nation that can build any type of nuke within days. We have worlds 2nd largest stockpile of Plutonium.

Add the fact that we are Russias only big customer and you know that Putin would never stop gas delivery. He could not pay pensions or army in that case because Russias imcome would be erased.

But of course its not about that, USA just want sell its overprized LNG in Germany, thats the only reason for all the drama.

We wont buy it for same reason we dont buy F 35. It doesnt match our quality standards.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Germany is the 2nd most powerful western country in the world, i think we do fine on our own.

You overestimate your influence greatly.

We dont team up with Russia, we purchase gas. Whats your problem honestly with a free market? What hinders you to offer your lng in Germany and compete? Why do you want take german customers chouce away and push for communism? If your product is better or cheaper, germans will buy it.

I think that you're overestimating German power. You have a rich country but your military is a complete mess . Also your economy is too export dependent...which makes it vulnerable to the whims of other counties (like China and Russia) in any coming downturn.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Im from eastern Germany, my parents and grandparents grew up there. None of them speaks russian. So keep your rubbish propaganda for yourself. Thank you.

As for the rest, we dont share your paranoia about Russia in Germany, its a weak economy country with rotten infrastructure and no functional army.

Germany is one of the richest nations on this planet, leading in science and technology and a nuclear nation that can build any type of nuke within days. We have worlds 2nd largest stockpile of Plutonium.

Add the fact that we are Russias only big customer and you know that Putin would never stop gas delivery. He could not pay pensions or army in that case because Russias imcome would be erased.

But of course its not about that, USA just want sell its overprized LNG in Germany, thats the only reason for all the drama.

We wont buy it for same reason we dont buy F 35. It doesnt match our quality standards.

As I said, buy your energy from sources that suit you. You can trust Putin. I don't, but you can. They aren't invading anyone - much. They grabbed Crimea and occupy parts of Ukraine, but that doesn't count.

If things don't work out the way your rosy scenario envisions, don't call us.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

shrug...

Your country certainly has the ability to choose. You can buy LNG from the US or you can buy it from Putin. But the reality is, with choice comes consequences. It's up to you to consider the consequences of the choice you make and take responsibility for those consequences.

You are being dishonest if you think blaming someone else absolves you of your responsibility.

Germans have been buying gas from the Russians for decades. The only difference is that now, it’s coming through a different pipeline, one that does not pass through Ukraine or Belorussia.

Trump has been enlisted in an effort to prop up fracking industry in the US for his entire term. It’s one of the reasons why the Adminostration is trying to hide who actually got the small business loans in March.

The American producers will always be at a disadvantage. They are the world’s highest cost producers, and have to maintain an expensive infrastructure to deliver it.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Even when compared to the UK , a country that has a smaller economy to Germany, the German military looks fairly weak...especially when you consider that much of the German military is not in good condition whilst the UK military is smaller than it used to be but in good shape.

Germany vs United Kingdom | Comparison military strength
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

As I said, buy your energy from sources that suit you. You can trust Putin. I don't, but you can. They aren't invading anyone - much. They grabbed Crimea and occupy parts of Ukraine, but that doesn't count.

If things don't work out the way your rosy scenario envisions, don't call us.

Trump trusts Putin!

Although he’s openly disappointed that they don’t appear to be coming to his rescue.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Trump trusts Putin!

Although he’s openly disappointed that they don’t appear to be coming to his rescue.

However , Trump has not made the US dependent upon Putin...not so sure about the Germans though...
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

As I said, buy your energy from sources that suit you. You can trust Putin. I don't, but you can. They aren't invading anyone - much. They grabbed Crimea and occupy parts of Ukraine, but that doesn't count.

If things don't work out the way your rosy scenario envisions, don't call us.

Without NATO assistance Germany would last precisely 3/4 of an hour against the Russians lol.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Germans have been buying gas from the Russians for decades. The only difference is that now, it’s coming through a different pipeline, one that does not pass through Ukraine or Belorussia.

This happened in Jan 2009.

Russia shut off all gas supplies to Europe through Ukraine on Wednesday — leaving more than a dozen countries scrambling to cope during a winter cold snap. Prime Minister Vladimir Putin publicly endorsed the move and urged that international observers be brought into the energy dispute.

The effects of the gas cutoff reverberated across the continent, where some countries have substantial reserves and others do not. The EU accused both nations of using consumers as pawns in their quarrel, and tens of thousands of people, mostly in Bulgaria, were without central heating.

"It is unacceptable that the EU gas supply security is taken hostage to negotiations between Russia and Ukraine," EU spokeswoman Pia Ahrenkilde Hansen said, demanding an immediate resumption of gas supplies.

The cutoff comes on Orthodox Christmas, celebrated in Russia, Ukraine and a number of other Orthodox Christian countries in Europe.

Europe shivers as Russia cuts gas shipments - World news - Europe - Russia | NBC News
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Trump trusts Putin!

Although he’s openly disappointed that they don’t appear to be coming to his rescue.

Trump trusts Putin to be Putin. Putin's desire to dominate Europe is transparent.
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Without NATO assistance Germany would last precisely 3/4 of an hour against the Russians lol.

Oh, but when hours count, the Germans can have a nuke in days. They'll have to use that nuke on their own soil. I bet they'll be up for doing that. :roll:
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

This happened in Jan 2009.
Yes because Ukraine was stealing from the Russians.. Hence why they want a pipeline not going through Ukraine and Poland.

Sent from my Honor 8X
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

I think the main problem is, that USA is at its end as global power. It gets pushed back at all fronts and now reached the stage, where it gets more and more erratic. Germany openly stands against that rubbish and that triggers Trump.

In the end its absolute clear that no nation can allow a foreign power to dictate its energy politics. So either USA stops its blackmail attempts or this 75 year alliance ends.

Thats not a bad thing either, doesnt mean our nations would be enemies. Just readjust relations or as Merkel said, readjust to the new realities.

Blackmail.. Mafia...

:lamo
 
Re: German - American relations at breaking point because Nordstream II - How will this end?

Natural gas adds to global warming.


Solar, nuclear, hydro, and wind is the way forward.


Germany still burns a lot of coal.
 
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