George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

[Simon W. Moon]

I know there was a police source that indicated this. I would find that fairly reliable. You don't?

I haven't seen it.
That's why I was asking if it had been confirmed.

Can you share where you found the police source?

 

[buck]

But this is the first we've heard that his nose was actually broken, right? I've never had a broken nose, but wouldn't he have had trouble breathing?

I'm just wondering if it's not outside the realm of possibility that this happened after the fact.

Nothing is outside of the realm of possiblity, but it sure as heck seems highly unlikely that Zimm decided to go break his own nose, give himself two black eyes and smash the back of his head into something.

 

[buck]

I haven't seen it.
That's why I was asking if it had been confirmed.

Can you share where you found the police source?

Here is from a prior post I made on it Apparently not from a police source but a source familiar with the investigation. I would still tend to trust it, but who knows.:

Yes, you misunderstood. Here is the story. In the 911 call, you can hear Zimm state that Trayvon is looking at him. There is not an allegation that Trayvon spoke to Zimm. So, it all seems consistent, from what I can tell. See what you could avoid by just posting links instead of pretending you actually know what is going on?

Was Trayvon Martin circling George Zimmerman's vehicle before the neighborhood watch volunteer and the unarmed teenager engaged in their now-infamous -- and tragic -- scuffle?
That is the assertion that Zimmerman has made numerous times to investigators, according to a new report in the Orlando Sentinel, citing a source familiar with the criminal investigation into Martin's slaying by Zimmerman in February at a gated community in Sanford, Fla.
According to the Sentinel, the source said Zimmerman told police he was so worried by Martin's behavior that he rolled up his windows to avoid trouble. The paper notes that Zimmerman did not give these details to the non-emergency police dispatcher he had called in order to report Martin as a suspicious character.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

But this is the first we've heard that his nose was actually broken, right? I've never had a broken nose, but wouldn't he have had trouble breathing?

You can have trouble breathing with a broken nose. But it's not required.

I'm just wondering if it's not outside the realm of possibility that this happened after the fact.

It's possible. All sorts of things are possible.
Dr.s aren't very good at determining when a bruise occurred. But it's not uncommon for bruising to take a bit to show. Two black eyes are not uncommmon for a broken nose--doesn't mean he got hit in the eye (though he could've).
So it's possible that a Dr could provide reasonably accurate limits of when a bruise could've been initiated but w/o being able to pin down a time. IOW, a Dr may be able to rule out some time frames as possible candidates for when the injury hat created a bruise happened even though they can't say precisely which time frame the injury DID occur in.

Results. Fifty children with accidental bruises were
enrolled. Emergency pediatricians’ accuracy of age estimation within 24 hours of actual age was 47.6%. Individual emergency pediatrician’s accuracy ranged from 0% to
100%, and the interobserver reliability was poor (

0.03). Accuracy within 24 hours of actual age was 29.4%
for other physicians and 36.8% for trainees, which was
similar to the emergency pediatricians. Observers reported using color primarily to estimate age, followed by
tenderness and then swelling; however, none of these
factors was significantly correlated with accuracy.

Conclusions. Physician estimates of bruise age are
highly inaccurate within 24 hours of the actual age of the
injury. Large individual variability and poor interrater
reliability also suggest that caution must be used when
interpreting these estimates. This study supports earlier
studies, urging extreme caution in estimating bruise age,
even when such estimates are based on direct examination of the injured area​

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

I obviously do not know either way. I am just pointing out that what you originally indicated may not be entirely accurate.



Those two accounts are similar enough that it doesn't seem a big deal, quite honestly. When you tell someone something, they will not always get it 100% exact, but he was afraid Tray saw it or Tray was reaching it - seems not too important a distinction.

Not disagreeing with that, just pointing out that his father, who was the one to claim Zimmerman had forgotten he had a gun until he used it, doesn't speak for Zimmerman since he can't recite details accurately; as evidenced by his different account of why Zimmerman went for his gun.

 

[rocket88]

He got out of his car when Martin ran between the town homes. Sort of like an alley/walkway between the rows of houses. He obviously couldn't drive his car through it.

So then after the guy who threatens him leaves, he gets out to follow him. That sounds like his decision, and a dumb one at that.

This really only adds to the view that Zimmerman caused the problem. After being threatened, instead of driving off, he gets out of the car to chase.

Not guilty of murder, perhaps. But certainly bears some responsibility for what happened.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Here is from a prior post I made on it Apparently not from a police source but a source familiar with the investigation. I would still tend to trust it, but who knows.

What Z said and how he said it make a difference. I'll wait to assign the circling the car thing to Z.

Yes, you misunderstood. Here is the story. In the 911 call, you can hear Zimm state that Trayvon is looking at him. There is not an allegation that Trayvon spoke to Zimm. So, it all seems consistent, from what I can tell. See what you could avoid by just posting links instead of pretending you actually know what is going on?

Are you still addressing me?

 

[buck]

What Z said and how he said it make a difference. I'll wait to assign the circling the car thing to Z.

Are you still addressing me?

No. That was actually to Sharon. I just copied the entire post that included the piece that you wanted to see.

 

[Thunder]

I see that... In the 11 hours that have past since I made that response to you (#785), you've only managed to squeeze in 53 responses to other posts.

Busy indeed.

you're now counting my posts?

eek, that's creepy.

 

[Grim17]

you're now counting my posts?

eek, that's creepy.

It appears you have time to respond to some posts, and not others... Would you like me to point out the obvious reason why you chose to ignore those particular responses of mine? I don't mind pointing out you shortcomings one bit, so just say the word.

 

[Thunder]

It appears you have time to respond to some posts, and not others... Would you like me to point out the obvious reason why you chose to ignore those particular responses of mine? I don't mind pointing out you shortcomings one bit, so just say the word.

I am particpating in MANY threads. After doing homework from 12-1 am, many new posts have been written in those threads.

with all due respect, sir, YOUR posts are NOT my priority, and unlike you, I DON'T go searching for your posts that ask me a question.

if you REALLY are desperate for me to answer certain questions of yours, PM me the damn questions and the link to the post.

cause honestly, your consistently rude, obnoxious, and offensive manner with me makes it very hard to give your demands any consideration.

want respect from me? start giving respect.

want civility? start showing some.

 

[Superfly]

Nothing is outside of the realm of possiblity, but it sure as heck seems highly unlikely that Zimm decided to go break his own nose, give himself two black eyes and smash the back of his head into something.

I don't know - if there was a possibility I was facing a murder rap, I wouldn't have a problem with paying someone $50 to break my nose. /shrugs

 

[Superfly]

You can have trouble breathing with a broken nose. But it's not required.
It's possible. All sorts of things are possible.
Dr.s aren't very good at determining when a bruise occurred. But it's not uncommon for bruising to take a bit to show. Two black eyes are not uncommmon for a broken nose--doesn't mean he got hit in the eye (though he could've).
So it's possible that a Dr could provide reasonably accurate limits of when a bruise could've been initiated but w/o being able to pin down a time. IOW, a Dr may be able to rule out some time frames as possible candidates for when the injury hat created a bruise happened even though they can't say precisely which time frame the injury DID occur in.

Results. Fifty children with accidental bruises were
enrolled. Emergency pediatricians’ accuracy of age estimation within 24 hours of actual age was 47.6%. Individual emergency pediatrician’s accuracy ranged from 0% to
100%, and the interobserver reliability was poor (
0.03). Accuracy within 24 hours of actual age was 29.4%
for other physicians and 36.8% for trainees, which was
similar to the emergency pediatricians. Observers reported using color primarily to estimate age, followed by
tenderness and then swelling; however, none of these
factors was significantly correlated with accuracy.

Conclusions. Physician estimates of bruise age are
highly inaccurate within 24 hours of the actual age of the
injury. Large individual variability and poor interrater
reliability also suggest that caution must be used when
interpreting these estimates. This study supports earlier
studies, urging extreme caution in estimating bruise age,
even when such estimates are based on direct examination of the injured area​

Thanks, Simon. Had not thought about how long it takes for bruises to show.

That broken nose concerns me, though. I just have to honestly believe that if the guy had a broken nose, the police wouldn't let it go untreated. Scratch on the head? Yeah, but a broken nose? Doubtful.

 

[Kreton]

It appears you have time to respond to some posts, and not others... Would you like me to point out the obvious reason why you chose to ignore those particular responses of mine? I don't mind pointing out you shortcomings one bit, so just say the word.

Its not just you grim or because he is busy. He has been active in many threads where I directly and repeatedly ask him questions and he refuses to answer them. I have seen him do it to ric, oscar, buck, and probably others. He does not want to have an honest intellectual discussion about anything. He wants troll you, annoy you, and see what kinds of reactions he can get out of people.

 

[buck]

Thanks, Simon. Had not thought about how long it takes for bruises to show.

That broken nose concerns me, though. I just have to honestly believe that if the guy had a broken nose, the police wouldn't let it go untreated. Scratch on the head? Yeah, but a broken nose? Doubtful.

They typically don't do too much for a broken nose. So, I don't find that at all sruprising.

 

[Kreton]

Thanks, Simon. Had not thought about how long it takes for bruises to show.

That broken nose concerns me, though. I just have to honestly believe that if the guy had a broken nose, the police wouldn't let it go untreated. Scratch on the head? Yeah, but a broken nose? Doubtful.

Believe it or not. Medical reports are there and are evidence in the case.

Has anyone seen any actual evidence that refutes Z's claim? The evidence we get the more it corroborates Z's claim. Yes some keep throwing out fantasy scenarios and telling us what might have happened.

 

[Superfly]

They typically don't do too much for a broken nose. So, I don't find that at all sruprising.

OK, thanks. Never had a broken nose, so I don't know what is done.

Just looking for a little information is all.

 

[Superfly]

Believe it or not. Medical reports are there and are evidence in the case.

Has anyone seen any actual evidence that refutes Z's claim? The evidence we get the more it corroborates Z's claim. Yes some keep throwing out fantasy scenarios and telling us what might have happened.

Right, I saw that yesterday - that the medical reports were there, and buried I guess in the mountain of paperwork.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Has anyone seen any actual evidence that refutes Z's claim?

Which claim in particular are you talking about?

 

[Kreton]

Which claim in particular are you talking about?

His claim of self defense.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

His claim of self defense.

His claim of self-defense consists of multiple other claims.
Those smaller claims are subject to being refuted.
The larger claim, of self-defense, can only be refuted by refuting the claims that make up the larger claim of self defense.
The larger claim cannot be refuted in and of itself except by refuting its component claims.

Are there any of the smaller claims you're asking about?

 

[Grim17]

I am particpating in MANY threads. After doing homework from 12-1 am, many new posts have been written in those threads.

with all due respect, sir, YOUR posts are NOT my priority, and unlike you, I DON'T go searching for your posts that ask me a question.

if you REALLY are desperate for me to answer certain questions of yours, PM me the damn questions and the link to the post.

cause honestly, your consistently rude, obnoxious, and offensive manner with me makes it very hard to give your demands any consideration.

want respect from me? start giving respect.

want civility? start showing some.

Let me put it this way... Some people have the honesty and integrity to admit their wrong, to answer any and all questions concerning their beliefs, and don't hide when their beliefs are challenged... While others run away and never seem to realize that if their beliefs don't hold up to scrutiny, there's something wrong with those beliefs... Not the person that's questioning them.

 

[buck]

Are there any of the smaller claims you're asking about?

Because I am curious, which ones can you refute based on what we currently know?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Because I am curious, which ones can you refute based on what we currently know?

I don't think we know that much about what Z's claims are. Knowledge of what Z's claims are is a necessary starting condition before we can determine the properties of those claims.

Did Z claim that he got out of his truck and walked to where there was not an intersection to find a street sign for a street that was different from the one where he had parked so that he could tell the cops where to meet him? And that is why he wasn't in his vehicle when he and Martin met?
I don't know.

Did Z claim that Martin circled his vehicle and that Z rolled up the window while he was on the phone to the PD?
idk

Did Z claim that his fear for his life came from the infliction of head injuries?
idk

My point is that since we I don't have a good picture of what exactly Z's claims are, it's hard to refute them.
Some of us seem to have a preternatural grip on exactly what Z's story is and isn't.

 

[buck]

Did Z claim that Martin circled his vehicle and that Z rolled up the window while he was on the phone to the PD?

For the sake of argument, say Z claimed that Martin circled his vehicle (not certain exactly what circled means, but...). What have you seen to refute that?

Did Z claim that he got out of his truck and walked to where there was not an intersection to find a street sign for a street that was different from the one where he had parked so that he could tell the cops where to meet him? And that is why he wasn't in his vehicle when he and Martin met?

That is something I would like more information/details on too.