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George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

MetalGear

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British lives were saved by the use of information obtained from terrorist suspects by "waterboarding", according to former US President George W Bush.

In his memoir, he said the simulated drowning technique had helped to break plots to attack Heathrow Airport and Canary Wharf in London.

BBC News - George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

Goes to show, its effective to a degree. I'm personally okay with violating the rights of terrorists if it means protecting the right to life of innocent civilians.
 

Navy Pride

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If I knew that water boarding might stop another terrorist attack like 9/11 I would say go for it in New York Minute...........
 

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If I knew that water boarding might stop another terrorist attack like 9/11 I would say go for it in New York Minute...........

If I thought pulling out finger nails would save lives I'd do it in a heart beat.


Tim-
 

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"Might Save Lives"

I'm not naive enough to think that its not possible lives has been saved through torture but...

What about the innocents who get tortured in this manner?
 

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"Might Save Lives"

I'm not naive enough to think that its not possible lives has been saved through torture but...

What about the innocents who get tortured in this manner?

What about civilians who get their head chopped off on the net?
 

Jetboogieman

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What about civilians who get their head chopped off on the net?

That's not the issue at hand Navy.

What about the innocent people who have been tortured by the United States?

The people who beheaded people on the net will be dealt with. Believe me.
 

Harshaw

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"Might Save Lives"

I'm not naive enough to think that its not possible lives has been saved through torture but...

What about the innocents who get tortured in this manner?

Which "innocents" were waterboarded?
 

Harshaw

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What about the innocent people who have been tortured by the United States?

Who?

The people who beheaded people on the net will be dealt with. Believe me.

When, by whom, and in what manner? If I'm to "believe you," such details would be helpful.
 

Jetboogieman

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Which "innocents" were waterboarded?

If it was even possible to assertian just how many people have been water boarded then we might have an answer.

But are you naive enough to think that not a single innocent person has been tortured by your government?
 

Harshaw

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If it was even possible to assertian just how many people have been water boarded then we might have an answer.

It, in fact, is possible -- three.


But are you naive enough to think that not a single innocent person has been tortured by your government?

I believe you're going to have to do better than that if you want to show wrongdoing.
 

Jetboogieman

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I believe you're going to have to do better than that if you want to show wrongdoing.

Maybe I could if your government would come clean about whats happened.

Innocents have been detained in Gitmo. We know nothing about abuses that have taken place at CIA black sites and especially about the people your government handed over to governments like Syria and Egypt to torture them on your behalf.

Look. I appreciate you trying to keep me on my toes Harshaw, you ask very good and difficult questions, sometimes I have to back down.

But this time, you cannot tell me there's no way innocents have been caught in the net. Do you really think the government would get it right 100% of the time?
 

Harshaw

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Maybe I could if your government would come clean about whats happened.

Innocents have been detained in Gitmo. We know nothing about abuses that have taken place at CIA black sites and especially about the people your government handed over to governments like Syria and Egypt to torture them on your behalf.

Look. I appreciate you trying to keep me on my toes Harshaw, you ask very good and difficult questions, sometimes I have to back down.

But this time, you cannot tell me there's no way innocents have been caught in the net. Do you really think the government would get it right 100% of the time?

I'm not addressing innocents being swept up in a net. I'm talking about innocents being waterboarded. Three people were waterboarded; they were NOT innocents; the program ended in 2003 and hasn't been used since.

And, beyond that, I'm referring to innocents being "tortured."

It's one thing to think of innocents being swept up on the fog of war. That, of course, is entirely possible, even plausible. There were quite a few who were released from Gitmo for that reason.

But innocents being "tortured"? No. You're going to have to show something more. Considerably more.
 
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Jetboogieman

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I'm not addressing innocents being swept up in a net. I'm talking about innocents being waterboarded. Three people were waterboarded; they were NOT innocents; the program ended in 2003 and hasn't been used since.

And, beyond that, I'm referring to innocents being "tortured."

It's one thing to think of innocents being swept up on the fog of war. That, of course, is entirely possible, even plausible. There were quite a few who were released from Gitmo for that reason.

But innocents being "tortured"? No. You're going to have to show something more. Considerably more.

Ok. So if innocents haven't been tortured. Then your government should disclose all records relating to prisoner transport and treatment immediately.
 

Orion

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If it's not torture then why is he still trying to defend the use of waterboarding? It would make far more sense to just pretend it's a non-issue.

He is playing into the controversy. Enough already. It was questionable at best, and torture at worst. The U.S. has lost all credibility in the detention department.
 

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Ok. So if innocents haven't been tortured. Then your government should disclose all records relating to prisoner transport and treatment immediately.

This does not constitute evidence of torture.
 

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BBC News - George W Bush claims UK lives 'saved by waterboarding'

Goes to show, its effective to a degree. I'm personally okay with violating the rights of terrorists if it means protecting the right to life of innocent civilians.


Mr Bush tells the paper: "Damn right!

"We capture the guy, the chief operating officer of al-Qaeda, who kills 3,000 people.

We felt he had the information about another attack.

"He says, 'I'll talk to you when I get my lawyer'. I say, 'What options are available and legal?'
]

I miss having a President who doesn't dance around an issue.:cry:
 

MetalGear

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"Might Save Lives"

I'm not naive enough to think that its not possible lives has been saved through torture but...

What about the innocents who get tortured in this manner?

In Iraq AND Afghanistan, we never fired at anybody who:

A) Wasn't pointing an AK47 at us or a rocket launcher
B) Wasn't caught trying to wire up a bomb in the street

And under 90% of instances we never arrested anybody unless the above criteria was met. So i see very little risk, absolutely minimal risk when taken into account the precautions our men take, that innocents would also be tortured.

If there was a shadow of a doubt that the men being held are innocent, they wouldn't be held for more than a few days under custody let alone transferred to a special unit to get water-boarded.

So if there have been cases that i am yet to hear of [of innocents being tortured], then that person is very unlucky.

But similarly i wouldn't suggest removing prisons just because it holds the risks of locking up an innocent.

A human rights fundamentalist you may be, you cannot deny that rights DO have a priority over other rights, and i believe an individual's rights violated by torture can be accepted if it means avoiding the violation of a greater right - the right to life of hundreds, maybe thousands of people.
 
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Harshaw

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Harshaw

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Do you have a rebuttal or just personal attacks?

It was a question. You made a sweeping assertion with nothing to back it up, so it was a natural one.
 

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It was a question. You made a sweeping assertion with nothing to back it up, so it was a natural one.

Please don't insult me further by trying to justify an obvious jab. I'll accept your apology any time, or you can just proceed with a real argument and I'd be happy to entertain it. Producing neither will result in me ignoring you.
 

Harshaw

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Please don't insult me further by trying to justify an obvious jab. I'll accept your apology any time, or you can just proceed with a real argument and I'd be happy to entertain it. Producing neither will result in me ignoring you.

Why so sensitive?

Perhaps you would be better-served explaining exactly how you come to your conclusion.
 

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Torture is torture, war crimes are war crimes, and this criminal monster needs to be brought to justice.
 

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Perhaps you would be better-served explaining exactly how you come to your conclusion.

I had a whole post written out and then my computer froze. I hate it when that happens. What follows won't be nearly as good but I'll try to summarize.

The whole debate about waterboarding rests upon the minutiae of the word "torture". Legally speaking, it's not torture for the simple fact that the U.S. was doing it at Gitmo, which falls outside of the signatory regions of the Geneva Convention; the U.S. was doing it to terrorists who are non-state actors and don't fall under the legal definition of enemy combatant; the U.S. did not make a declaration of war and thus the people it captures now can be subject to anything. Should we be impressed that the U.S. so expertly knows how to flout international law? I don't know, but I personally am not.

Ethically speaking, waterboarding is torture. It is little different than when any fascist regime has procured false confessions or intelligence by dunking a person's head in a basin of water, only to remove it at the brink of suffocation. That they are strapped down to a board and we have finer control over the stimulus makes no difference. It's distressing to the person because they believe their life to be in imminent danger. I am not interested in whether or not the U.S. has the so-called right to do it, or that it's called "enhanced interrogation" or torture. The minutiae are irrelevant. The U.S. can do whatever it wants... it has proven that now. Anything that can happen, does happen. Waterboarding is just one thing the public is aware of.

My beef is that the U.S. tries to portray itself as the good guy, the nation that spreads freedom and democracy, humanitarian principles, etc. It is rather two-faced to sign the Geneva Convention on Torture and make grandiose speeches treating people properly, only to turn around and take enemies, without legal recourse, to some concealed gray zone in the Caribbean. All that does is reek of hypocrisy and it has - whether or not those in favour of waterboarding want to admit it - left a black mark on the reputation of the U.S. as a savior of the oppressed.

If you're going to put people under such duress, then just be up front about it. The USSR did it, China does it to dissidents, and I'm sure some European countries do it in their intelligence communities. Just stop acting so righteous about it, as though your tortures are different from some other nation's. You are no different than they are, regardless if you feel justified in doing it.

It is a shining example of why U.S. foreign policy is a complete and utter hypocrisy. Do as I say, not as I do.
 
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