• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

General Patton!

FinnMacCool

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
153
Location
South Shore of Long Island.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Yeah we probably should've. If we did, there would have been no need for a Cold War. Nobody liked Stalin anyways. He was an asshole and his methods of controlling the population were quite similar to Hitler's. The Russians, however, were probably the main reason why we were able to win the war so I think instead of invading Russia maybe we could've simply overthrown Stalin some way. Or assassinated him.
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
FinnMacCool said:
Yeah we probably should've. If we did, there would have been no need for a Cold War. Nobody liked Stalin anyways. He was an asshole and his methods of controlling the population were quite similar to Hitler's. The Russians, however, were probably the main reason why we were able to win the war so I think instead of invading Russia maybe we could've simply overthrown Stalin some way. Or assassinated him.
I think a lot of times in our country's history we haven't listened to the military enough.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
FinnMacCool said:
Yeah we probably should've. If we did, there would have been no need for a Cold War. Nobody liked Stalin anyways. He was an asshole and his methods of controlling the population were quite similar to Hitler's. The Russians, however, were probably the main reason why we were able to win the war so I think instead of invading Russia maybe we could've simply overthrown Stalin some way. Or assassinated him.
Nice thought...

Attack a country that didn't attack us because it's ruled by a madman who used harmful methods to control the population and it would be better in the long run to just get rid of him...

Now where did I hear THAT before?...:2wave:
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
cnredd said:
Nice thought...

Attack a country that didn't attack us because it's ruled by a madman who used harmful methods to control the population and it would be better in the long run to just get rid of him...

Now where did I hear THAT before?...:2wave:

See, this is why a country needs to listen to it's military or else we get people like you that don't understand warfare. Stalin was a ruthless monster and eliminating him would have saved the people of East Germany 45 plus years of communism.
 

FinnMacCool

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
153
Location
South Shore of Long Island.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
think a lot of times in our country's history we haven't listened to the military enough.
Generals aren't politicians. Think of all the presidents we had who were generals. Ulysses Grant, one of the worst we ever had and indirectly caused the near extermination of the native Americans. Andrew Jackson, who wasn't a very good president either. Ike who was so-so.

You have to remember the Russians were our allies. Attacking them after the defeating the germans is very sleazy indeed regardless of how you feel on the matter. It is perhaps unwise to have been allied with them in the first place but we wouldn't have been able to win the war without them.


Nice thought...

Attack a country that didn't attack us because it's ruled by a madman who used harmful methods to control the population and it would be better in the long run to just get rid of him...

Now where did I hear THAT before?...
If you think that Bush invaded Iraq because of the goodness of his compassionate conservative heart, you are mistaken. Nothing good can possibly come out of this, even without Saddam. Anything could happen now. Its all up in the air. We just have to hope for the best now.

Oh yeah and just to remind everyone, the mindset of the United States during the Cold War era was the ends justify the means. We knew exactly what we were doing when, through Pinochet, we became responsible for the deaths of thousands and perhaps more. Not only was the 'ends justify the means' mindset turned out to be completely unhelpful but it helped no one when it came to keeping world peace. I guess it just goes to show.
 
Last edited:

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
George_Washington said:
See, this is why a country needs to listen to it's military or else we get people like you that don't understand warfare. Stalin was a ruthless monster and eliminating him would have saved the people of East Germany 45 plus years of communism.
ummmm....read it again, tough guy...

I was commenting on Finny's description of Stalin...It's pretty much the same as the description as Saddam today...

I was surprised that he found it conceivable to attack Russia then but not Iraq now...:doh

If you check again, you'll see that I did NOT give my opinion of whether or not we should have invaded Russia...
 

FinnMacCool

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
153
Location
South Shore of Long Island.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
cnredd, read above. I responded to this already.

But anyways, I shouldn't have said we should have invaded Russia. They were our allies but I still think we should've took care of Stalin in someways, though I understand it is probably much more complicated then that.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Patton bugged the hell out of the pansy public, that's for sure.

http://www.pattonhq.com/speech.html
..."Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, everyone of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American."

..."You are not all going to die," he said slowly. "Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood. Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen."

"All through your Army careers, you men have bitched about what you call "chicken **** drilling". That, like everything else in this Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is alertness. Alertness must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a **** for a man who's not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready for what's to come. A man must be alert at all times if he expects to stay alive. If you're not alert, sometime, a German son-of-an-asshole-bitch is going to sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a sockful of ****!" ...

...

"My men don't surrender", Patton continued, "I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back. That's not just bull **** either. The kind of man that I want in my command is just like the lieutenant in Libya, who, with a Luger against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the Kraut with his helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German before they knew what the hell was coming off. And, all of that time, this man had a bullet through a lung. There was a real man!"

..."All of the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters, either. Every single man in this Army plays a vital role. Don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. Every man has a job to do and he must do it. Every man is a vital link in the great chain. What if every truck driver suddenly decided that he didn't like the whine of those shells overhead, turned yellow, and jumped headlong into a ditch? The cowardly bastard could say, "Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands". But, what if every man thought that way? Where in the hell would we be now? What would our country, our loved ones, our homes, even the world, be like? No, *******it, Americans don't think like that. Every man does his job. Every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important in the vast scheme of this war. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns and machinery of war to keep us rolling. The Quartermaster is needed to bring up food and clothes because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man on K.P. has a job to do, even the one who heats our water to keep us from getting the 'G.I. Shits'."

..."Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the *******ed cowards and we will have a nation of brave men. One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, "Fixing the wire, Sir". I asked, "Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?" He answered, "Yes Sir, but the *******ed wire has to be fixed". I asked, "Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?" And he answered, "No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!" Now, there was a real man. A real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time, no matter how great the odds. And you should have seen those trucks on the rode to Tunisia. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting all around them all of the time. We got through on good old American guts. Many of those men drove for over forty consecutive hours. These men weren't combat men, but they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it, and in one hell of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without team effort, without them, the fight would have been lost. All of the links in the chain pulled together and the chain became unbreakable."

...

"Don't forget," Patton barked, "you men don't know that I'm here. No mention of that fact is to be made in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be here in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the *******ed Germans. Some day I want to see them raise up on their ****-soaked hind legs and howl, 'Jesus Christ, it's the *******ed Third Army again and that son-of-a-****ing-bitch Patton'."

"We want to get the hell over there", Patton continued, "The quicker we clean up this *******ed mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple ******* Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the *******ed Marines get all of the credit."

..."Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin", he yelled, "I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!"

"When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a German will get to him eventually. The hell with that idea. The hell with taking it. My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one either. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have; or ever will have. We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living *******ed guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun **********s by the bushel-****ing-basket. War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!"

"I don't want to get any messages saying, "I am holding my position." We are not holding a *******ed thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living **** out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like **** through a tin horn!"

"From time to time there will be some complaints that we are pushing our people too hard. I don't give a good ******* about such complaints. I believe in the old and sound rule that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder WE push, the more Germans we will kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that."

..."There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled **** in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-*******ed-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"
 

FinnMacCool

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
2,272
Reaction score
153
Location
South Shore of Long Island.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Thank god our soldiers weren't such pansies lol. The movie Patton was edited so much that the George C Scott version seems like an angel compared to the real thing. That is nothing against Scott though, as he played a magnificent Patton.
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
FinnMacCoolYou have to remember the Russians were our allies. Attacking them after the defeating the germans is very sleazy indeed regardless of how you feel on the matter. It is perhaps unwise to have been allied with them in the first place but we wouldn't have been able to win the war without them.[/quote said:
See I agree with Patton that we should have just went ahead and invaded Russia. They were already weakened from fighting the Russians. And think about it, it would have saved us the trouble of going through the cold war, the nuclear arms race, and all that crap. Also, we could have established Russia as a capitalist center and really struck a nerve in communism around the world.




If you think that Bush invaded Iraq because of the goodness of his compassionate conservative heart, you are mistaken. Nothing good can possibly come out of this, even without Saddam. Anything could happen now. Its all up in the air. We just have to hope for the best now.
Well, I don't agree on that. I think it's good Saddam is out and now we can fight terrorism easier and help to establish democracy throughout the middle east.
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
cnredd said:
ummmm....read it again, tough guy...

I was commenting on Finny's description of Stalin...It's pretty much the same as the description as Saddam today...

I was surprised that he found it conceivable to attack Russia then but not Iraq now...:doh

If you check again, you'll see that I did NOT give my opinion of whether or not we should have invaded Russia...
Ok sorry, my bad.
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
George_Washington said:
See I agree with Patton that we should have just went ahead and invaded Russia. They were already weakened from fighting the Russians. And think about it, it would have saved us the trouble of going through the cold war, the nuclear arms race, and all that crap. Also, we could have established Russia as a capitalist center and really struck a nerve in communism around the world.
.
Except for one thing:
An 'invasion' of Rissian in May or June 1945 means that the Russians would have would up occupying almost ALL of Europe, rather than just the Eastern part. They would have absorbed out initinal advance, and then pushed West, stopping only at the channel.

What people forget is that the Rissuan army was far larger than our, far more experienced. just as well-commanded (if in a different style) and better equipped. They fought 80-90% of the German army, and they mover farther and faster against them than we did.

No, an Allied attack on the Russians spells disaster for Europe.
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
M14 Shooter said:
Except for one thing:
An 'invasion' of Rissian in May or June 1945 means that the Russians would have would up occupying almost ALL of Europe, rather than just the Eastern part. They would have absorbed out initinal advance, and then pushed West, stopping only at the channel.

What people forget is that the Rissuan army was far larger than our, far more experienced. just as well-commanded (if in a different style) and better equipped. They fought 80-90% of the German army, and they mover farther and faster against them than we did.

No, an Allied attack on the Russians spells disaster for Europe.
I was under the impression that the Russian army was less technologically advanced than us and Germany, I read that in a book. But anyway, then what was Patton's reasoning for wanting to invade them? You would think a General like Patton would know what he was talking about.
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
George_Washington said:
I was under the impression that the Russian army was less technologically advanced than us and Germany, I read that in a book. But anyway, then what was Patton's reasoning for wanting to invade them? You would think a General like Patton would know what he was talking about.
They were not technically as advanced as us - but that doesmt mean their equipment wasnt better.

Simplest amd most relevant:
Compare the T34/85 and the M4A3(76).
Compare the JS-IIm and the M-26.

Remember - these guys beat 80-90% of the German Army.
 

IndependentTexan

New member
Joined
Mar 18, 2005
Messages
45
Reaction score
1
Location
Dallas, Texas
FinnMacCool said:
Generals aren't politicians. .
actually if it hadn't been for Grant....from what i've read...I think Winfield Hancock would have been a good politician....and look at Chamberlain after he came home after the war to maine.....there are some generals who could be good politicians
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
11,430
Reaction score
2,282
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The American people wouldn't have tolerated an attack on the Soviet Union.

If Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, it's doubtful if the US would have entered that war at all. Even after Pearl, we weren't going to get involved in Europe until Hitler declared war on us.

Okay, ignore the political realities. Our supply lines would have stretched from New Jersey to Moscow. Every foot we advanced into Russia would have shortened the Russian lines, who also benefitted from interior lines of communication. Once we crossed into Poland and Czechoslovakia, a just defeated and still dangerous Germany would be in our rear. The Russian ire the fueled their fighting spirit against their former allies the Nazis would burn doubly bright at the thought of such American treachery, and at the same time the American enthusiasm for the war would fade rapidly. We were still fighting Japan and we didn't have the Bomb available when Germany surrendered.

No sane commander would consider starting a new war under those circumstances.

If Patton was serious, he was crazy.
 

TimmyBoy

Banned
Joined
Sep 23, 2005
Messages
1,466
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
The American people wouldn't have tolerated an attack on the Soviet Union.

If Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor, it's doubtful if the US would have entered that war at all. Even after Pearl, we weren't going to get involved in Europe until Hitler declared war on us.

Okay, ignore the political realities. Our supply lines would have stretched from New Jersey to Moscow. Every foot we advanced into Russia would have shortened the Russian lines, who also benefitted from interior lines of communication. Once we crossed into Poland and Czechoslovakia, a just defeated and still dangerous Germany would be in our rear. The Russian ire the fueled their fighting spirit against their former allies the Nazis would burn doubly bright at the thought of such American treachery, and at the same time the American enthusiasm for the war would fade rapidly. We were still fighting Japan and we didn't have the Bomb available when Germany surrendered.

No sane commander would consider starting a new war under those circumstances.

If Patton was serious, he was crazy.
Ohh Patton was serious. He was ready to have a go at it with the Russians. One of the conversations that he and his officers had after dealing with the Soviet Army was that they were fighting the wrong people. Patton wanted to use the Germans to attack the Soviet Army as well. However, I think the Soviet Union would have attacked West Germany shortly after World War II if the US didn't have nuclear weapons.
 

akyron

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
10,352
Reaction score
2,436
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
GySgt said:
Well, he does have a point. Marine Lt. General Mattis, a man I admire and who is a hell of a speaker and has the abilities to fire up the troops through his speeches, was in a little hot water earlier this year, because of something he said at a civilian news conference. He said something that was not "politically correct" and everyone acted like he said something wrong.

What did he say?
 

George_Washington

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 2, 2005
Messages
1,962
Reaction score
0
Location
United States of America and proud of it!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Guys, I still just think we should have invaded Russia. Think about it. Couldn't we have easily got Germany's support based on their anger at the Russians? And even if the Russians had more advanced weapons, I think if we sent in enough troops we could have been successful. We could have also brought in the remaining French and British armies to help us. Once we had taken Stalingrad and Moscow, we could have set up Germany as a united capitalist state and that would not have only helped the German people but it would have also strengthened democracy in the face of other communist nations. I mean shoot, we could have made all of Europe capitalist and democratic and just think how much better off the people would have been. It would have been better for us because we could have traded with Russia and all of those Eastern European former communist nations, which would have been better for our economy.
 

M14 Shooter

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
2,622
Reaction score
68
Location
Toledo-ish OH
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
George_Washington said:
Guys, I still just think we should have invaded Russia. Think about it. Couldn't we have easily got Germany's support based on their anger at the Russians? And even if the Russians had more advanced weapons, I think if we sent in enough troops we could have been successful. We could have also brought in the remaining French and British armies to help us. Once we had taken Stalingrad and Moscow, we could have set up Germany as a united capitalist state and that would not have only helped the German people but it would have also strengthened democracy in the face of other communist nations. I mean shoot, we could have made all of Europe capitalist and democratic and just think how much better off the people would have been. It would have been better for us because we could have traded with Russia and all of those Eastern European former communist nations, which would have been better for our economy.

Do you have any idea how many men the Russians had on their western frontier in May 1945? How many tanks and guns? Do you have any idea of the combat power of those formations in may of 1945?

An assault on them would have been a disaster.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
M14 Shooter said:
Do you have any idea how many men the Russians had on their western frontier in May 1945? How many tanks and guns? Do you have any idea of the combat power of those formations in may of 1945?

An assault on them would have been a disaster.
If this was to occur...wouldn't have we come in from the East?
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
M14 Shooter said:
From the Pacific Theater?
No.
Nah...I'm thinking topside...If Europe would be willing to SHOW a big front on the western side of Russia, we'd pretty much own the Siberian region....

From there we'd turn it into a long war...inch closer & closer to Moscow until they are squeezed...any sign of reinforments from the west and Europe starts movin' in and keep them "occupied"...

I'm still not saying it would be RIGHT...I'm just saying that if my CiC told me to do it, that's probably how I'd plan it...
 
Top Bottom