GE Workers in Ohio and South Carolina Walk Out To Protest Vaccination Mandate

[iguanaman]

I know you would. Unfortunately, you are not predicating your position on informed and/or cogent reasoning. That reasoning has been debated and established on this thread. Thanks!!

Denying the obvious is not a good rebuttal. Everyone knows that the vaccine PREVENTS infections in most people. The breakthrough infections are rare and mostly in those with weakened immune systems. You know... the ones we are supposed to be protecting. Vaccinating everyone will stop the virus from circulating in the population and protect us all. You are a virus lover and I feel sorry for you. Protecting a murderous virus by helping supply it hosts to breed in is despicable. Everyone need to get the vaccine. It is not a choice. It will be required for all children attending school by next fall too.

 

[RealityChecker]

Two questions:

Tell me exactly how many cases there are

Somewhere between 150 and 200 million Americans have caught SARS-CoV2.

Tell me exactly how many people have died from Covid

The current CDC estimate is over 700,000.

Until you can do that you are free to submit your guess based on whatever data you would like to use and I will do the same.
Just don’t pass off your guess as fact or I will call you on it every time.

So around 0.2% of the people infected with SARS-CoV2 have died. Of course, most of those were 65y and older and had at least one other serious co-morbidity. Also we know that the IFR was likely several times higher back in the spring and summer of 2020 than it is today. So hard to imagine the current IFR is more than the estimated IFR for the flu and probably lower. That is most likely reality whether you want to accept it or deny it is up to you.

 

[iguanaman]

Somewhere between 150 and 200 million Americans have caught SARS-CoV2.

The current CDC estimate is over 700,000.

So around 0.2% of the people infected with SARS-CoV2 have died. Of course, most of those were 65y and older and had at least one other serious co-morbidity. Also we know that the IFR was likely several times higher back in the spring and summer of 2020 than it is today. So hard to imagine the current IFR is more than the estimated IFR for the flu and probably lower. That is most likely reality whether you want to accept it or deny it is up to you.

The problem is that the flu no longer even exists in most areas because of covid. It is immaterial how covid's death rate compares with a non-existent disease. Covid is the problem not the flu and we cannot protect the vulnerable as long as it is circulating in the population. Vaccines do not work well on people with weakened immune systems but they work fantastic on the rest of us and prevent infection and the resulting spread of the disease. That is why our entire population including school age children need to be vaccinated as fast as is humanly possible. Those with the least chance of getting very sick from covid are the most important group to vaccinate too. They are the asymptomatic spreaders that propel the covid surges. It is not a choice and never has been.

Flu Has Disappeared for More Than a Year​

As Scientific American reported in November 2020, the drop-off in flu numbers following COVID’s arrival was swift and global. Since then, cases have stayed remarkably low. “There’s just no flu circulating,” says Greg Poland, who has studied the disease at the Mayo Clinic for decades. The U.S. saw about 700 deaths from influenza during the 2020–2021 season. In comparison, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates there were approximately 22,000 U.S. deaths in the prior season and 34,000 deaths two seasons ago.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/

 

[Logophile]

More than 130 Chicago municipal employees file lawsuit challenging vaccine mandates​

By Mitchell McCluskey 2 days ago
https://twitter.com/share?url=http:...rer=http://a.msn.com/01/en-us/AAPPX3p?ocid=st
More than 130 Chicago municipal workers filed a lawsuit on Thursday, claiming the city and state's vaccine mandates are unconstitutional.
The workers, mostly from the fire, water and transportation departments, are challenging an executive order by Gov. J.B. Pritzker which requires state employees to be vaccinated for Covid-19.
The mandate "far exceeds the power of the governor granted to him by Illinois statute," the lawsuit argues.
The lawsuit also argues against a mandate put in place by Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, which required that all city employees disclose their vaccination status by October 15 or undergo twice-weekly tests for Covid-19.
"The mandate, and the Executive Orders, violate the constitutional and fundamental rights of those who either choose not to be vaccinated, or choose not to disclose their vaccination status to either the state, or their employers," the lawsuit says.

The lawsuit comes after Lightfoot announced that a "very small number" of Chicago Police Department employees were put into a no-pay status on Monday after they did not disclose their vaccination status.
CNN reached out to Lightfoot's and Pritzer's offices for comment but did not immediately hear back. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/m...wsuit-challenging-vaccine-mandates/ar-AAPPX3p

This will take awhile to shake out, but the result will be interesting, particularly as it's aimed essentially at a government acting as an employer. Thanks!!

 

[RealityChecker]

He refuses to comprehend that covid is nothing like the flu and if the flu spread like covid we would be mandating vaccines for it too.

Well can you comprehend that 99.9996% of the people who caught COVID under age 50y died from it?. Clearly Wuhan virus and the flu are not identical but their IFRs are similar. The IFR for the average seasonal flu has remained fairly constant but the IFR for SARS-CoV2 has almost certainly declined several fold since this pandemic began.

It is also true that covid is far more deadly when it infects people with weakened immune systems like those over 65 meaning that the vaccine is not as effective in that group.

That is also true of the flu, colds, and most other infections. So it is older and sicker people who need to be quarantined and not children and college kids who have an IFR of 0.00001, which is likely lower than that of the flu.

That makes the suppression of the virus in the general population with vaccines the only way to protect the vulnerable.

So now that the IFR of the flu and SARS-CoV2 are similar why not just quarantine older and sicker folks rather than disrupting the lives of the young and healthy Americans?

That is why a vaccine mandate is fully justified and essential. Doing everything possible to get people vaccinated and to isolate the refusers from society is the only way to get Covid under control.

Actually it is those who are most vulnerable and those who come into close contact with them that ought to be taking steps to reduce their risk of catching SARS-CoV2. Since over half of Americans now have caught the SARS-CoV2 and have better immunity against future e=re-infections why should they be forced to get a vaccine they do not want or need? Only authoritarian dictators seek to impose their lame ideologies on others.

 

[VySky]

No, the assholes are the spreaders of disease and violence. How can you attempt to champion such deplorable people? That is very concerning to us real Americans.

Whoever that is lol….

 

[iguanaman]

Well can you comprehend that 99.9996% of the people who caught COVID under age 50y died from it?. Clearly Wuhan virus and the flu are not identical but their IFRs are similar. The IFR for the average seasonal flu has remained fairly constant but the IFR for SARS-CoV2 has almost certainly declined several fold since this pandemic began.

That is also true of the flu, colds, and most other infections. So it is older and sicker people who need to be quarantined and not children and college kids who have an IFR of 0.00001, which is likely lower than that of the flu.


So now that the IFR of the flu and SARS-CoV2 are similar why not just quarantine older and sicker folks rather than disrupting the lives of the young and healthy Americans?

Actually it is those who are most vulnerable and those who come into close contact with them that ought to be taking steps to reduce their risk of catching SARS-CoV2. Since over half of Americans now have caught the SARS-CoV2 and have better immunity against future e=re-infections why should they be forced to get a vaccine they do not want or need? Only authoritarian dictators seek to impose their lame ideologies on others.

The only way we can protect the vulnerable is to vaccinate every man, women and child and stop the virus from circulating. We did that with chickenpox and saved many 1000's of lives. The vulnerable are that way because of weakened immune systems that make the vaccine less effective. The ones least likely to get seriously ill are the most important ones to vaccinate. They are the asymptomatic spreaders that propel the covid surges that kill 1000's a day. Stop acting like caring about your fellow man is a "choice" it is not. Either you care about our society or will be ejected out of it.

 

[RealityChecker]

The problem is that the flu no longer even exists in most areas because of covid. It is immaterial how covid's death rate compares with a non-existent disease. Covid is the problem not the flu and we cannot protect the vulnerable as long as it is circulating in the population. Vaccines do not work well on people with weakened immune systems but they work fantastic on the rest of us and prevent infection and the resulting spread of the disease. That is why our entire population including school age children need to be vaccinated as fast as is humanly possible. Those with the least chance of getting very sick from covid are the most important group to vaccinate too. They are the asymptomatic spreaders that propel the covid surges. It is not a choice and never has been.

Flu Has Disappeared for More Than a Year​

As Scientific American reported in November 2020, the drop-off in flu numbers following COVID’s arrival was swift and global. Since then, cases have stayed remarkably low. “There’s just no flu circulating,” says Greg Poland, who has studied the disease at the Mayo Clinic for decades. The U.S. saw about 700 deaths from influenza during the 2020–2021 season. In comparison, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates there were approximately 22,000 U.S. deaths in the prior season and 34,000 deaths two seasons ago.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide-during-the-covid-pandemic1/

Past performance does not predict future performance. It is likely the flu is not going extinct and may kill as many Americans as does SARS-CoV2 in 2022.

 

[RealityChecker]

The only way we can protect the vulnerable is to vaccinate every man, women and child and stop the virus from circulating.

Actually, we know the delta variant (about 99% of all CoVID-19 cases now) is not stopped by vaccinations. There is clear evidence people who are vaccinated can still catch and spread the SARS-CoV2 to others.

The vulnerable are that way because of weakened immune systems that make the vaccine less effective. The ones least likely to get seriously ill are the most important ones to vaccinate. They are the asymptomatic spreaders that propel the covid surges that kill 1000's a day.

We have no good data to tell us how many new cases of CoVID-19 are being spread by vaccinated and unvaccinated people. If you have that data please share it. If you don't then you have no cogent point.

 

[iguanaman]

Past performance does not predict future performance. It is likely the flu is not going extinct and may kill as many Americans as does SARS-CoV2 in 2022.

We will deal with the flu if and when it becomes a problem. Now we have a serious problem with covid and need to vaccinate every man, woman and child to get it under control. It is the ONLY way and you should be grateful we have a way. Fighting it is like fighting against antibiotics.

 

[iguanaman]

Actually, we know the delta variant (about 99% of all CoVID-19 cases now) is not stopped by vaccinations. There is clear evidence people who are vaccinated can still catch and spread the SARS-CoV2 to others.

We have no good data to tell us how many new cases of CoVID-19 are being spread by vaccinated and unvaccinated people. If you have that data please share it. If you don't then you have no cogent point.

No vaccine stops all infections. Everyone's immune system is different. BUT most infections are stopped in most people as indicated by the data that shows that the unvaccinated are 5 times as likely to be infected. Getting every man woman and child vaccinated will stop the virus from circulating and protect us all. Isn't that the goal? Or do you think the goal is to keep covid around forever so it can continue to surge and pick off the unvaccinated and the vulnerable for years and years?

CDC: Unvaccinated 5 times more likely to get COVID-19​

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-per...unvaccinated-5-times-more-likely-get-covid-19

 

[RealityChecker]

We will deal with the flu if and when it becomes a problem.

Actually waiting until there is a flu outbreak in your community to get vaccinated is dumb if yu are a high risk individual.

Now we have a serious problem with covid and need to vaccinate every man, woman and child to get it under control. It is the ONLY way and you should be grateful we have a way. Fighting it is like fighting against antibiotics.

Actually, people get vaccines when healthy and take antibiotics when sickened by an infection that is weakened by the antibiotic. Monoclonal antibodies and Merck's new antiviral drug (Molnupiravir) are more akin to antibiotics. Hopefully the later becomes available soon as it appears likely to cut deaths with COVID-19 by 50%.

 

[SheWolf]

It’s interesting how the same group of people are angry and scared of an immigrant taking their job but they will happily walk away and give up their employment because they don’t want to wear a mask or get a vaccine.

 

[iguanaman]

Actually waiting until there is a flu outbreak in your community to get vaccinated is dumb if yu are a high risk individual.

Actually, people get vaccines when healthy and take antibiotics when sickened by an infection that is weakened by the antibiotic. Monoclonal antibodies and Merck's new antiviral drug (Molnupiravir) are more akin to antibiotics. Hopefully the later becomes available soon as it appears likely to cut deaths with COVID-19 by 50%.

Not as dumb as refusing a vaccine for a deadly disease that is already circulating in the population though is it?
Monoclonal antibodies stop your bodies own immune system from producing any lasting protection from the virus and leave you vulnerable to reinfection. What a great idea huh? We can all keep getting covid over and over and make the drug companies rich. Or you can just get the FREE vaccine and reduce your chances of dying from ANY cause and have your own antibodies to protect you instead of gene spliced experimental drugs.

People vaccinated against Covid-19 less likely to die from any cause, study finds​

(CNN)People who got Covid-19 vaccines were not only less likely to die from the virus, but they were less likely to die from any cause over the following months, researchers reported Friday. The research team was trying to demonstrate that the three authorized Covid-19 vaccines are safe and they say their findings clearly demonstrate that. "Recipients of the Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, or Janssen vaccines had lower non--COVID-19 mortality risk than did the unvaccinated comparison groups," the researchers wrote in the weekly report of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/health/covid-vaccines-death-rates/index.html

 

[RealityChecker]

No vaccine stops all infections. Everyone's immune system is different. BUT most infections are stopped in most people as indicated by the data that shows that the unvaccinated are 5 times as likely to be infected.

Actually, the unvaccinated are 5X more likely to show symptoms when infected and get diagnosed. We do not know how many vaccinated people are actually getting infected and passing the virus on to others. Why? Because vaccinated people have few or no symptoms and so are not be tested to see if they are infected or how contagious they are.

Getting every man woman and child vaccinated will stop the virus from circulating and protect us all. Isn't that the goal?

Not everyone's goal. Forcing elementary school kids to get vaccinated to protect adults seems a bit unethical to me. Even the FDA seems to feel more data is needed to determine if these school age kids may be more likely harmed by being vaccinated than by risking infection.

Or do you think the goal is to keep covid around forever so it can continue to surge and pick off the unvaccinated and the vulnerable for years and years?

Actually, since the delta variant is easily caught and being spread by vaccinated people the idea that we are going to get rid of SARS-CoV2 by getting everyone vaccinated is naïve. You know there are already 4 other known human coronaviruses that have been around for eons. While not as deadly as the flu or CoVID-19 in older people these human coronaviruses do kill at least 6-8% of the older people in nursing homes that catch them. So the flu and these coronaviruses all can and do mutate and the more vaccinated people there are the more quickly these vaccine resistant strains take over. You do understand how natural selection works right?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

The walkout is a protest in the United States. While it may not result in any actions the bullied are seeking it sends a message that over 750 employees walked off the job.

Yep, it proves that 1.15% of GE's US employees will believe anything.

Actually that's pretty good because you can usually get around 10% to say that they believe any remotely plausible statement.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Somewhere between 150 and 200 million Americans have caught SARS-CoV2.

The current CDC estimate is over 700,000.

So around 0.2% of the people infected with SARS-CoV2 have died. Of course, most of those were 65y and older and had at least one other serious co-morbidity. Also we know that the IFR was likely several times higher back in the spring and summer of 2020 than it is today. So hard to imagine the current IFR is more than the estimated IFR for the flu and probably lower. That is most likely reality whether you want to accept it or deny it is up to you.

It's a bit different from that.

​

Unless, of course, you are adding in all of the cases that you don't know about and have no evidence that they exist since, statistically, every single American has been tested for COVID-19 TWO TIMES.

 

[iguanaman]

Actually, the unvaccinated are 5X more likely to show symptoms when infected and get diagnosed. We do not know how many vaccinated people are actually getting infected and passing the virus on to others. Why? Because vaccinated people have few or no symptoms and so are not be tested to see if they are infected or how contagious they are.

Not everyone's goal. Forcing elementary school kids to get vaccinated to protect adults seems a bit unethical to me. Even the FDA seems to feel more data is needed to determine if these school age kids may be more likely harmed by being vaccinated than by risking infection.

Actually, since the delta variant is easily caught and being spread by vaccinated people the idea that we are going to get rid of SARS-CoV2 by getting everyone vaccinated is naïve. You know there are already 4 other known human coronaviruses that have been around for eons. While not as deadly as the flu or CoVID-19 in older people these human coronaviruses do kill at least 6-8% of the older people in nursing homes that catch them. So the flu and these coronaviruses all can and do mutate and the more vaccinated people there are the more quickly these vaccine resistant strains take over. You do understand how natural selection works right?

• Limited available data suggest lower vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 illness and hospitalization among immunocompromised people. In addition, numerous studies have shown reduced immunologic response to COVID-19 vaccination among people with various immunocompromising conditions.
• The risk for SARS-CoV-2 infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus. Early data suggest infections in fully vaccinated persons are more commonly observed with the Delta variant than with other SARS-CoV-2 variants. However, data shows fully vaccinated persons are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2, and infections with the Delta variant in fully vaccinated persons are associated with less severe clinical outcomes. Infections with the Delta variant in vaccinated persons potentially have reduced transmissibility than infections in unvaccinated persons, although additional studies are needed.
• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

So you don't want school children to be less likely to die from any cause? Why?
If you can read you see that you are wrong and Delta is not "easily caught" by vaccinated people and are actually less likely to catch and spread it than the unvaccinated. That is how we can beat this virus with vaccines but we need at least 85% of the total population to take the shots. There are ZERO vaccine resistant strains of covid so that is just another anti-vaxxer lie.

 

[RealityChecker]

Not as dumb as refusing a vaccine for a deadly disease that is already circulating in the population though is it?

Well not getting vaccinated if one is at high risk of serious illness is dumb for both CoVID-19 and the flu vaccines. But getting vaccinated if you are very low risk like health children and college students is certainly not always the smartest choice.

Monoclonal antibodies stop your bodies own immune system from producing any lasting protection from the virus and leave you vulnerable to reinfection.

That is simply not true. Where did you get that misinformation?

What a great idea huh? We can all keep getting covid over and over and make the drug companies rich.

Well I'd rather see the drug companies make a profit selling vaccines that save lives than opioids that cost lives.

Or you can just get the FREE vaccine and reduce your chances of dying from ANY cause and have your own antibodies to protect you instead of gene spliced experimental drugs.

Well it is not free as we will all be paying taxes to cover the borrowed money used to pay for these vaccines for many more years. There is no reason to believe COVID vaccines will reduce your risk of dying from cancer or heart disease or anything else. The article should have made that clear.

 

[Ethel2]

Somewhere between 150 and 200 million Americans have caught SARS-CoV2.

The current CDC estimate is over 700,000.

So around 0.2% of the people infected with SARS-CoV2 have died. Of course, most of those were 65y and older and had at least one other serious co-morbidity. Also we know that the IFR was likely several times higher back in the spring and summer of 2020 than it is today. So hard to imagine the current IFR is more than the estimated IFR for the flu and probably lower. That is most likely reality whether you want to accept it or deny it is up to you.

In other words you don’t know.
It’s fine. No one else does either.
You have your opinion. It’s not fact.

 

[RealityChecker]

Unless, of course, you are adding in all of the cases that you don't know about and have no evidence that they exist since, statistically, every single American has been tested for COVID-19 TWO TIMES.

Actually with sereological testing it was pretty easy to determine who was likely infected with the Wuhan virus. Now with about 200 million vaccinated it gets a bit more complicated to determine if someone was infected and recovered as the vaccinated people will also have antibodies targeting the spike protein if they got the mRNA vaccines.

The PCR tests for determining if someone is currently infected and shedding virus is not effective for detecting a prior infection. So your comment seems based more on confusion about testing than what it can and cannot determine. The CDC estimates it is missing more than 3/4 of all cases, Back in May the CDC estimated there were already over 120 million Americans infected with SARS-CoV2. We know tens of millions more Americans got infected this past summer as the very infectious delta strain spread rapidly. So it is hard to imagine that at least 150 to 200 million Americans have now been infected with SARS-CoV2.

So it is likely the IFR to date is around 0.2%, but that is overall. Thanks to vaccines and more efficacious medical treatments today the IFR is now likely no more than about 0.1%, which makes it similar or or even more likely now less than that of the typical seasonal flu.

 

[RealityChecker]

In other words you don’t know.
It’s fine. No one else does either.
You have your opinion. It’s not fact.

Actually the deaths with COVID-19 are likely close to 750,000 and the number of Americans now infected is almost certainly well in excess of 150 million. But we know early on the IFR was likely at least 0.5%. If vaccination cuts it by 5-fold or more and we now have 90%+ of high risk 65y and older Americans either vaccinated or had COVID-19 and recovered the IFR is likely now no more than 0.1% and probably less. That is most likely reality. If you do not want to believe that then provide us with some more credible data than I have seen and that could change my current estimate of the IFR for SARS-CoV2.

 

[Ethel2]

Actually with sereological testing it was pretty easy to determine who was likely infected with the Wuhan virus. Now with about 200 million vaccinated it gets a bit more complicated to determine if someone was infected and recovered as the vaccinated people will also have antibodies targeting the spike protein if they got the mRNA vaccines.

The PCR tests for determining if someone is currently infected and shedding virus is not effective for detecting a prior infection. So your comment seems based more on confusion about testing than what it can and cannot determine. The CDC estimates it is missing more than 3/4 of all cases, Back in May the CDC estimated there were already over 120 million Americans infected with SARS-CoV2. We know tens of millions more Americans got infected this past summer as the very infectious delta strain spread rapidly. So it is hard to imagine that at least 150 to 200 million Americans have now been infected with SARS-CoV2.

So it is likely the IFR to date is around 0.2%, but that is overall. Thanks to vaccines and more efficacious medical treatments today the IFR is now likely no more than about 0.1%, which makes it similar or or even more likely now less than that of the typical seasonal flu.

Lol
What a load of speculative garbage!
No one knows how many cases/deaths have actually occurred. Therefore the mortality rate is unknown and likely will never be known. You can present all the guesswork you like and you still don’t know. What is objectionable is that you attempt to pass it off as fact when you have no evidence to prove your point-whether you like it or not. I think it’s fair to say that there are more cases and more deaths than have been counted. It’s also fair to say that Covid much deadlier than influenza, given the way the hospitals have been overrun and the deaths above “normal “.
Feel free to express your uneducated opinion. I’ll express mine too.

 

[Ethel2]

Th

Actually the deaths with COVID-19 are likely close to 750,000 and the number of Americans now infected is almost certainly well in excess of 150 million. But we know early on the IFR was likely at least 0.5%. If vaccination cuts it by 5-fold or more and we now have 90%+ of high risk 65y and older Americans either vaccinated or had COVID-19 and recovered the IFR is likely now no more than 0.1% and probably less. That is most likely reality. If you do not want to believe that then provide us with some more credible data than I have seen and that could change my current estimate of the IFR for SARS-CoV2.

That’s the point!
There is no accurate data!
You quoting speculative nonsense doesn’t change that fact.

 

[RealityChecker]

Th

That’s the point!
There is no accurate data!
You quoting speculative nonsense doesn’t change that fact.

Actually the data I am using is what not really in debate. Are you saying because the estimates for the CDC and the best research are not 100% verified they should not be used to estimate the IFR of the Wuhan virus? The estimated IFR for the flu is based more on speculation than the IFR for the Wuhan virus. But at least you have figured how unreliable your estimated IFR was.

Funny you have decided the best peer reviewed research and CDC's efforts to track the # of deaths with CoVID-19 are now just speculative nonsense in your opinion.

I think it is fair to say the IFR of SARS-CoV2 was higher than that of the typical seasonal flu but that was because MDs had vaccines to boost immunity and nearly all older people had had several different flu infections over their lifetime. Now most older Americans have either had a SARS-CoV2 infection and/or have been vaccinated and so now have immune system far better able to deal with a SARS-CoV2 infection now than during the spring of 2020. That is not speculation that is reality. And it is also reality that the medical community had far less knowledge at how to treat people hospitalized with serious COVID back then than they have today. That too is not speculation. You do realize that the IFR of most infectious disease decline as medical science produces more and better ways to treat and prevent those diseases. Why you cannot accept that the IFR for the Wuhan virus is now far lower today than it was in 2020 seems more like confusion than understanding to me.