Gaining a job that pays above minimum wage...how hard is it?

[reinoe]

As much as I love my working class brethren, a lot of their drug problems don't stay off the job.
Can't count how many good people lost their jobs, after being given multiple chances at rehab and just staying sober at work.

As for STEM people, engineers are the first people my company lays off.
They don't provide much real value.

Here's what our government thinks about STEM jobs...

Government encourages employers to use H-1B visas to replace STEM jobs.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

If these jobs are so poorly paying with little benefits, it seems to me one option might be to learn a skilled trade and work for yourself starting a business.

My daughter got a BSN nursing degree, so her & her classmates did pretty well right-out-of-the-box landing decent gigs. My boy just started studying for a finance degree, so after the first two years he'll decide between the finance or accounting concentration, so he might do O.K., but it remains to seen.

The nursing and finance/accounting kids have both been starting at reasonably paying salaries in my neck-of-the-woods (very large U.S. city).

But for kids that aren't choosing in-demand degrees or in places with high demand, I'd probably consider following their education with a skilled trade or some other entrepreneurial endeavor. If they're going to work for peanuts and no bennies, may as well take a crack at building something for yourself. Guys in my city have become millionaires selling hot dogs and pizza!

It depends, a lot of the smaller manufacturing firms, do indeed not pay much with little benefits.
Others, like Shaw (one of Warren Buffet's companies) pay well, but they are prone to high lay offs during economic down turns.
Still others are good year round.

I have a stick in my craw about our post secondary school system.
It's being shown to be nothing more than signaling (it's a legal mine field for companies to test potential employees for competency) and less about being an actual knowledge gaining experience.
With the cost and time spent in it, it's a massive waste of money and time, an overall drag of the economy itself.
We need to find a better way.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I've found temp agencies to be the worst way to find work, but it probably depends on what part of the country you live in.

Depends on the temp agency and business wanting employees.
A lot are complete junk, but often it's better than nothing.

 

[Lovebug]

My solution is to make a more business friendly environment in this country. All business, not just mega-corps. Its a place to start anyways. Reducing the size of government, not growing it would also be helpful.

Not trying to needle you but, you didn't answer my question about subsidizing wages.

I don't like it. People need to perform to earn.
If we put our heads together, we might come up with something that works.

 

[Goshin]

I don't like it. People need to perform to earn.
If we put our heads together, we might come up with something that works.

Maybe like the EIC, something that (moderately) rewards the fact that you're working, even if at a job that doesn't pay much, but that isn't necessarily pegged to how many kids you have. Just a thought.

 

[Lovebug]

Maybe like the EIC, something that (moderately) rewards the fact that you're working, even if at a job that doesn't pay much, but that isn't necessarily pegged to how many kids you have. Just a thought.

Would work well with my idea involving the community to a certain extent.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...above-minimum-wage-hard-5.html#post1065729423

 

[Goshin]

I'm completely out of touch with entry level jobs, but what you describe above strikes me as pretty pitiful, particularly the CS guy.

Oh, that's not the half of it. Ask some of the younger folks about "eternal internships".

 

[devildavid]

I think a lot of people don't fully understand the barriers, difficulties and risks of going into business for yourself. There are a lot of good reasons it is easier to be employed by a company, despite the poor management many have to put up with.

 

[What if...?]

And therein lies the problem. Earning more than minimum wage is too much like work for many.

Getting harder.every year, though.

People keep moving "down" a tier from where they're qualified which pushes the least qualified on THAT down a tier, etc.

So lots of folks are falling out the bottom.

Lots of service jobs are now considered "unskilled, unworthy of more than minimum wage". I remember when many retail workers made a "real" living. They were also MUCH better at their jobs.

Not sure of the causal link. Did workers just start sucking or did they just go elsewhere when the jobs were declared "unskilled/minimum wage".

And even though people don't like to talk about it, MANY people weren't born with the chops to compete in the "new economy". Coupled with automation and desperate foreign labor, we really need to start thinking about what a post-labor economy is going to look like.

 

[countryboy]

Getting harder.every year, though.

People keep moving "down" a tier from where they're qualified which pushes the least qualified on THAT down a tier, etc.

So lots of folks are falling out the bottom.

Lots of service jobs are now considered "unskilled, unworthy of more than minimum wage". I remember when many retail workers made a "real" living. They were also MUCH better at their jobs.

Not sure of the causal link. Did workers just start sucking or did they just go elsewhere when the jobs were declared "unskilled/minimum wage".

And even though people don't like to talk about it, MANY people weren't born with the chops to compete in the "new economy". Coupled with automation and desperate foreign labor, we really need to start thinking about what a post-labor economy is going to look like.

Cause and effect. When people are conditioned to believe they deserve more pay for less, or even, NO work. And often times literally paid NOT to work, what do you think is going to happen? Couple that with the move to a godless society, where morality is considered "subjective", and you have arrived at the 21st century.

 

[What if...?]

You have to be a strategist now.
More people going to school hasn't really helped.
It just caused employers to require even more education, to reduce the number of applicants.

Getting an inside advantage, even if the work is not in your field, is what people should be doing, in my opinion.
My company shows greater interest to inside applicants, rather than outside.
Even if the position is from lowly machine operator to higher office worker.

When I signed up with the stagehands union here I immediately put myself on the "short-notice" list. Making myself (almost) always available has moved me ahead in the pecking order as the call stewards keep me working when its slow.

My point is there are always little tricks to move ahead.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

When I signed up with the stagehands union here I immediately put myself on the "short-notice" list. Making myself (almost) always available has moved me ahead in the pecking order as the call stewards keep me working when its slow.

My point is there are always little tricks to move ahead.

Exactly, just have to "speak up."

 

[What if...?]

Cause and effect. When people are conditioned to believe they deserve more pay for less, or even, NO work. And often times literally paid NOT to work, what do you think is going to happen? Couple that with the move to a godless society, where morality is considered "subjective", and you have arrived at the 21st century.

One could make the point that the shift in advantage of owners over workers that technology/globalization has fomented is also a factor.

It simply isn't completely valid to talk about the "market" as is common because capital is totally portable and labor is not. Nor are markets functioning as they used to when we were kids.

The Great Divergence needs to be looked at. All the raises for forty years have ended up in the hands of a fraction of a percent of the population.

Workers didn't become massively less productive at the same time a tiny handful became commensurately more productive.

The fundamental nature of capitalism has changed. Until we address this, all the talk about jobs is pretty moot.

 

[What if...?]

If these jobs are so poorly paying with little benefits, it seems to me one option might be to learn a skilled trade and work for yourself starting a business.

My daughter got a BSN nursing degree, so her & her classmates did pretty well right-out-of-the-box landing decent gigs. My boy just started studying for a finance degree, so after the first two years he'll decide between the finance or accounting concentration, so he might do O.K., but it remains to seen.

The nursing and finance/accounting kids have both been starting at reasonably paying salaries in my neck-of-the-woods (very large U.S. city).

But for kids that aren't choosing in-demand degrees or in places with high demand, I'd probably consider following their education with a skilled trade or some other entrepreneurial endeavor. If they're going to work for peanuts and no bennies, may as well take a crack at building something for yourself. Guys in my city have become millionaires selling hot dogs and pizza!

I would encourage your son to look at trends in AI. Accounting/finance are both positions AI is coming for soon.

Pretty much anybody going to school needs to make sure machines won't already have the jobs they are training for when they graduate.

(Nursing should be OK for a while yet)

 

[What if...?]

My solution is to make a more business friendly environment in this country. All business, not just mega-corps. Its a place to start anyways. Reducing the size of government, not growing it would also be helpful.

Not trying to needle you but, you didn't answer my question about subsidizing wages.

The only real way to make America more business friendly is for American workers to work for about $5/day.

All the talk about regulations/taxes is mostly just that. Talk. Cheap labor is the draw. Eliminate regs and taxes and it still would probably be more profitable to use desperate foreign labor. (And our infrastructure would eventually fail and our rivers would burn again, etc.)

Not trying to be a jerk, but this issue is FAR more complex than think-tank generated "common sense" can address.

 

[What if...?]

It depends, a lot of the smaller manufacturing firms, do indeed not pay much with little benefits.
Others, like Shaw (one of Warren Buffet's companies) pay well, but they are prone to high lay offs during economic down turns.
Still others are good year round.

I have a stick in my craw about our post secondary school system.
It's being shown to be nothing more than signaling (it's a legal mine field for companies to test potential employees for competency) and less about being an actual knowledge gaining experience.
With the cost and time spent in it, it's a massive waste of money and time, an overall drag of the economy itself.
We need to find a better way.

I've seen a number of computer content generation folks get good jobs with NO college. Taught themselves the skills so they could do things they wanted to do and it turned out those skills were in demand.

(Most got in through networking/introduction, as they wouldn't have even made it through the first resume pass based on education alone)

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I've seen a number of computer content generation folks get good jobs with NO college. Taught themselves the skills so they could do things they wanted to do and it turned out those skills were in demand.

(Most got in through networking/introduction, as they wouldn't have even made it through the first resume pass based on education alone)

I don't know if you play video games, but the mods for some of them are better than the content put in the game developers themselves.
These are kids/young adults with little to no formal training.

 

[Henrin]

I don't know if you play video games, but the mods for some of them are better than the content put in the game developers themselves.
These are kids/young adults with little to no formal training.

There is really three main groups of modders from my experience.

1. People doing it just for fun.
2. People that want to be in the industry.
3. People that are in the industry.

All three groups can be highly skilled and release quality mods.

 

[Carjosse]

I would encourage your son to look at trends in AI. Accounting/finance are both positions AI is coming for soon.

Pretty much anybody going to school needs to make sure machines won't already have the jobs they are training for when they graduate.

(Nursing should be OK for a while yet)

That is not going to be happening any time soon, you can automate parts of the job but not all of it, all technology will be doing in those fields in the near future is increasing efficiency. I am studying those systems, accountants and bankers do not need to fear for their jobs yet.

 

[countryboy]

The only real way to make America more business friendly is for American workers to work for about $5/day.

All the talk about regulations/taxes is mostly just that. Talk. Cheap labor is the draw. Eliminate regs and taxes and it still would probably be more profitable to use desperate foreign labor. (And our infrastructure would eventually fail and our rivers would burn again, etc.)

Not trying to be a jerk, but this issue is FAR more complex than think-tank generated "common sense" can address.

If you actually believe this, what would be the point of further discussion with you.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

There is really three main groups of modders from my experience.

1. People doing it just for fun.
2. People that want to be in the industry.
3. People that are in the industry.

All three groups can be highly skilled and release quality mods.

2 of the highest quality Skyrim modders are just college kids.
They do excellent and novel work.

 

[Mycroft]

2 of the highest quality Skyrim modders are just college kids.
They do excellent and novel work.

Probably the most notable mod for a game was the Desert Combat mod for Battlefield 1942. The group who did that were hired by DICE to make their next big game, Battlefield 2...and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[What if...?]

That is not going to be happening any time soon, you can automate parts of the job but not all of it, all technology will be doing in those fields in the near future is increasing efficiency. I am studying those systems, accountants and bankers do not need to fear for their jobs yet.

Increases in efficiency often lead to fewer jobs.

Its the new AI systems' ability to learn that's the game changer.

Any Job where large amounts of data are being analysed are at risk because machines do it better. Especially when what is done with that analysis is pretty repetitive.

And that's what accounting is, at the end of the day. So I would expect one guy with several AIs doing the work once done by ten, or some such.

The idea that machines can't "think" like we do is rapidly becoming incorrect.

It was thought until recently that no computer could win at Go. Now an AI can beat the best.

 

[What if...?]

If you actually believe this, what would be the point of further discussion with you.

Does the regulatory and tax burden offset the $75+ per day per worker plus labor burden difference in labor?

That's at $10/hr, so what $125/day per worker counting labor burden?

With one hundred workers that's a $12,500/day savings.

So that's $4.5 million a year in labor cost savings, and that's based on an eight hour day, and most overseas shops work more than that in a day.

Can you demonstrate that regulation and taxes for a hundred employee company cost $4.5 million a year on average?

Or is it just that sweet cheap labor that was why our jobs were sent overseas?

 

[Carjosse]

Increases in efficiency often lead to fewer jobs.

Its the new AI systems' ability to learn that's the game changer.

Any Job where large amounts of data are being analysed are at risk because machines do it better. Especially when what is done with that analysis is pretty repetitive.

And that's what accounting is, at the end of the day. So I would expect one guy with several AIs doing the work once done by ten, or some such.

The idea that machines can't "think" like we do is rapidly becoming incorrect.

It was thought until recently that no computer could win at Go. Now an AI can beat the best.

That computer also costs a substantial amount of money are not mass manufactured, it is still a few decades at least till we see AIs start to really do anything. They are already using computers to analyse data, all the people do is make decisions based on it.