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G.O.P. Nears Vote to Increase U.S. Wage

SHould the minimum wage be increased?


  • Total voters
    28
Iriemon said:
Fair enough. What percentage of defense and war spending go to military salaries?


The overwhelming majority of the federal budget should be taken up by the military. It's one of the few things the federal government was actually supposed to do.

Minimum wage hikes, on the other hand, are not the government's place and they only hurt the poor.
 
Iriemon said:
Fair enough. What percentage of defense and war spending go to military salaries?
Salaries are about 26% of the military budget.
 
Gill said:
I find this statement quite incredulous!!
Look who it came from :roll:

Who do you think manufactures the equipment that you claim is "only good for blowing things up"? It is American manufacturing companies that pay good wages to American workers and pay taxes to the American government.
Now now now. You know as well as I do this is nothing more than Big Business making money off the American Taxpayer.

Never mind that we decided long ago that we'd rather defend oursleves by spendng money rather than men.
 
aquapub said:
The overwhelming majority of the federal budget should be taken up by the military

Deopending on who you talk to, it is.
Of course, they preface it by saying its the majority of "discetionary spending" rather than a majority of total spending.

Entitlement spending FAR outstrips defense spending. Hugely.
 
Why don't we get back somewhere in the area of the topic. Some on here have the contention that minimum wage increases lead to inflation, cost jobs, and hurt the economy.

However, despite the fact that the minimum wage has been in effect for nearly 70 years, no one has offered a shred of empirical evidence that even remotely demonstrates a correlation between past increases in the minimum wage and increased inflation, loss of jobs, or declining economic growth.

Until one of the ideological conservatives on here actually presents such empirical evidence, it seems to me that this debate is over as without such evidence, their contentions are simply unsubstantiated opinions.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
However, despite the fact that the minimum wage has been in effect for nearly 70 years, no one has offered a shred of empirical evidence that even remotely demonstrates a correlation between past increases in the minimum wage and increased inflation, loss of jobs, or declining economic growth.

Until one of the ideological conservatives on here actually presents such empirical evidence, it seems to me that this debate is over as without such evidence, their contentions are simply unsubstantiated opinions.

Similarly....
It falls on those that which to make a change to justify said change.
I havent seen any empirical evidence that the minimum wage needs to go up.
 
Goobieman said:
Similarly....
It falls on those that which to make a change to justify said change.
I havent seen any empirical evidence that the minimum wage needs to go up.

And I would simply counter that we have had a minimum wage in effect for 70 years. Periodically we have raised that minimum wage in order to somewhat keep up with inflation. We have not raised it in nearly 10 years, and thus, historically we past due on raising it. Being that raising the minimum wage periodically is the status quo, and being that there is not a shred of empirical evidence to suggest that a marginal minimum wage increase would have any detrimental effects on the economy. The burden falls upon those who are preaching doom and gloom.

I never said that increasing the minimum wage would accomplish anything or not accomplish anything, I merely pointed out that the doom and gloom bunch has not a shred of evidence to back up their claims.
 
Goobieman said:
Look who it came from :roll:

LOL! Some folks like Goobie hold grudges after repeatedly being shown to be wrong.
 
Goobieman said:
Similarly....
It falls on those that which to make a change to justify said change.
I havent seen any empirical evidence that the minimum wage needs to go up.

Try living on $5.15 an hour. Then you'll have your "empirical evidence".
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
And I would simply counter that we have had a minimum wage in effect for 70 years. Periodically we have raised that minimum wage in order to somewhat keep up with inflation. We have not raised it in nearly 10 years, and thus, historically we past due on raising it. Being that raising the minimum wage periodically is the status quo, and being that there is not a shred of empirical evidence to suggest that a marginal minimum wage increase would have any detrimental effects on the economy. The burden falls upon those who are preaching doom and gloom.

I never said that increasing the minimum wage would accomplish anything or not accomplish anything, I merely pointed out that the doom and gloom bunch has not a shred of evidence to back up their claims.

It accomplishes paying people who earn it a little bit more.
 
Iriemon said:
It accomplishes paying people who earn it a little bit more.

Of course, but this whole debate is a perfect example of ideology verses pragmatism. Here you have conservative ideologues who strongly hold notions that which they have not one shred of empirical evidence to substantiate. Then when presented with that fact, they still hold those same unsubstantiated notions.

Don't get me wrong, if this were a debate on a so called "living wage" then the tables would be turned, and the libs on here who might be arguing for it would be the ones whose notions were unfounded by empirical data.
 
For those who are claiming there are no arguments against the minimum wage - I point you to this editorial:

The Right Minimum Wage: $0.00

The Federal minimum wage has been frozen... In some states, it now compares unfavorably even with welfare benefits available without working. It's no wonder then that [Congress is] being pressed by organized labor to battle for an increase.

No wonder, but still a mistake. Anyone working in America surely deserves a better living standard than can be managed on [the current minimum wage]. But there's a virtual consensus among economists that the minimum wage is an idea whose time has passed. Raising the minimum wage by a substantial amount would price working poor people out of the job market. A far better way to help them would be to subsidize their wages or - better yet - help them acquire the skills needed to earn more on their own.

An increase in the minimum wage...would restore the purchasing power of bottom-tier wages. It would also permit a minimum-wage breadwinner to earn almost enough to keep a family of three above the official poverty line. There are catches, however. It would increase employers' incentives to evade the law, expanding the underground economy. More important, it would increase unemployment: Raise the legal minimum price of labor above the productivity of the least skilled workers and fewer will be hired.

If a higher minimum means fewer jobs, why does it remain on the agenda of some liberals? A higher minimum would undoubtedly raise the living standard of the majority of low-wage workers who could keep their jobs. That gain, it is argued, would justify the sacrifice of the minority who became unemployable. The argument isn't convincing. Those at greatest risk from a higher minimum would be young, poor workers, who already face formidable barriers to getting and keeping jobs. Indeed, [the President] has proposed a lower minimum wage just to improve their chances of finding work.

Perhaps the mistake here is to accept the limited terms of the debate. The working poor obviously deserve a better shake. But it should not surpass our ingenuity or generosity to help some of them without hurting others. Here are two means toward that end: Wage supplements. Government might subsidize low wages with cash or payments for medical insurance, pensions or Social Security taxes. Alternatively, Washington could enlarge the existing earned income tax credit, a ''negative'' income tax paid...to working poor families. This would permit better targeting, since minimum-wage workers in affluent families would not be eligible. Training and education. The alternative to supplementing income for the least skilled workers is to raise their earning power in a free labor market. In the last two decades, dozens of programs to do that have produced mixed results at a very high cost. But the concept isn't necessarily at fault; nurturing the potential of individuals raised in poverty is very difficult. A humane society would learn from its mistakes and keep trying.

The idea of using a minimum wage to overcome poverty is old, honorable - and fundamentally flawed. It's time to put this hoary debate behind us, and find a better way to improve the lives of people who work very hard for very little.

Pretty radical stuff, eh? What kind of fascist, neo-Conservative, far right-wing, big business lover would call for the complete abolition of the minimum wage?

Rush Limbaugh?
Pat Buchanan?
Newsmax?
The WSJ?

Nope.

Click here to find out
 
RightatNYU said:
For those who are claiming there are no arguments against the minimum wage - I point you to this editorial:



Pretty radical stuff, eh? What kind of fascist, neo-Conservative, far right-wing, big business lover would call for the complete abolition of the minimum wage?

Rush Limbaugh?
Pat Buchanan?
Newsmax?
The WSJ?

Nope.

Click here to find out


Yeah there is plenty of OP-Eds out there, even 20 year old ones like this one. However, as I have stated several times. The minimum wage has been around for 70 years now. It has been increased dozens of times since then. Certainly it would be easy for someone to find a correlation between those increases, and increased inflation, increased unemployment, and slower economic growth, if such a correlation actually existed.

Lot's of doom and gloom, but no empiracle data to support it.
 
RightatNYU said:
For those who are claiming there are no arguments against the minimum wage - I point you to this editorial:



Pretty radical stuff, eh? What kind of fascist, neo-Conservative, far right-wing, big business lover would call for the complete abolition of the minimum wage?

Rush Limbaugh?
Pat Buchanan?
Newsmax?
The WSJ?

Nope.

Click here to find out

You only focused on eliminating the MW -- that was only half the story. The rest of the story:

"The working poor obviously deserve a better shake. But it should not surpass our ingenuity or generosity to help some of them without hurting others. Here are two means toward that end: Wage supplements. Government might subsidize low wages with cash or payments for medical insurance, pensions or Social Security taxes. Alternatively, Washington could enlarge the existing earned income tax credit, a ''negative'' income tax paid...to working poor families."

I don't necessarily disagree with this proposal, I think it has merit. However, I haven't heard about the radical ideas offered in exchange for the MW being implimented. If you are not going to implement the wage supplement or subsidy suggestions made (and actually, the EITC has been reduced (or at least not adjusted for inflation) not enlarged under this Administration), then raising the MW is better than doing nothing.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Yeah there is plenty of OP-Eds out there, even 20 year old ones like this one. However, as I have stated several times. The minimum wage has been around for 70 years now. It has been increased dozens of times since then. Certainly it would be easy for someone to find a correlation between those increases, and increased inflation, increased unemployment, and slower economic growth, if such a correlation actually existed.

Lot's of doom and gloom, but no empiracle data to support it.

That's not an op ed.

That's just a plain ol ed.

And as you point out, the minimum wage has been around for 70 years. This article was written 19 years ago. Are we to believe that for 51 years it had a negative impact, but that somehow now it doesn't? And if as you claim there is no correlation, then why did this myth persist so long, even to the point of "becoming a consensus" among economists? To this day, there are significant evidences of the MW's impact. You realize that to this day, the argument about the min wage is not whether it will increase unemployment (it is agreed generally that it will), but by how much. Liberal economists claim by a small margin, conservatives claim by a lot.

The argument remains though: Considering that at most, 30% of the people who would be helped by a min wage increase are the "target market" for the increase, wouldn't it be more efficient to put the same amount of effort into a more targeted program such as EITC's?
 
Iriemon said:
You only focused on eliminating the MW -- that was only half the story. The rest of the story:

"The working poor obviously deserve a better shake. But it should not surpass our ingenuity or generosity to help some of them without hurting others. Here are two means toward that end: Wage supplements. Government might subsidize low wages with cash or payments for medical insurance, pensions or Social Security taxes. Alternatively, Washington could enlarge the existing earned income tax credit, a ''negative'' income tax paid...to working poor families."

I don't necessarily disagree with this proposal, I think it has merit. However, I haven't heard about the radical ideas offered in exchange for the MW being implimented. If you are not going to implement the wage supplement or subsidy suggestions made (and actually, the EITC has been reduced (or at least not adjusted for inflation) not enlarged under this Administration), then raising the MW is better than doing nothing.

Oh, no, as you see below I'm with you on that. In actuality, I'm in favor of raising the MW (although not because I think it makes good economic sense, but rather because it will keep NYS from losing more and more business by leveling the playing field.).

I think that raising the MW is a good thing for this quasi-selfish reason, but in terms of actual policy, I'd just as soon see the same amount of effort put into increasing EITC's, so that this extra money isn't going to rich teenagers. Of course, the question of funding it immediately arises...
 
Iriemon said:
The GOP is supporting an increase in the minimum wage? LOL! Must be an election year.


Kinda like when the dems support a war huh?

;)
 
RightatNYU said:
That's not an op ed.

That's just a plain ol ed.

And as you point out, the minimum wage has been around for 70 years. This article was written 19 years ago. Are we to believe that for 51 years it had a negative impact, but that somehow now it doesn't? And if as you claim there is no correlation, then why did this myth persist so long, even to the point of "becoming a consensus" among economists? To this day, there are significant evidences of the MW's impact. You realize that to this day, the argument about the min wage is not whether it will increase unemployment (it is agreed generally that it will), but by how much. Liberal economists claim by a small margin, conservatives claim by a lot.

The argument remains though: Considering that at most, 30% of the people who would be helped by a min wage increase are the "target market" for the increase, wouldn't it be more efficient to put the same amount of effort into a more targeted program such as EITC's?

And these tax credits would be paid for how? We are running a large deficit; we have been running one for the past few years. Increasing the EITC would only add to that deficit.

This editorial simply made the claim that it was a consensus among economists that the minimum wage costs jobs. However, the writer provided no supporting data to support such a contention.

Economics is a science. Contentions should be supported with empirical data. For example, if I am not mistaken, we had three minimum wage increases in the 90s. Yet, inflation was low, economic growth was very strong, and unemployment reached near record lows.

We had minimum wage increases in the 80s, yet inflation dropped in the eighties, economic growth was good, and employment was good. Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage was at its highest in the 60s, yet from an economics perspective, we were at full employment at times in the 60s, and the economy grew like never before.
 
The Republicans are once again showing where their true interest lies. They cannot stomach giving a two dollar increase in minimum wage to the poor without linking it to millions in tax cuts to the rich.
 
southerndemocrat said:
This editorial simply made the claim that it was a consensus among economists that the minimum wage costs jobs. However, the writer provided no supporting data to support such a contention.
Can I quote you over on the global warming threads??
 
Gill said:
Can I quote you over on the global warming threads??

Certainly, the difference there is that I quote peer reviewed science, where as deniers quote right wing and industry funded propoganda sites. ;)
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Certainly, the difference there is that I quote peer reviewed science, where as deniers quote right wing and industry funded propoganda sites. ;)
Consensus in in the eye of the beholder.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
And these tax credits would be paid for how? We are running a large deficit; we have been running one for the past few years. Increasing the EITC would only add to that deficit.

That's the point that I raised in my very next post.

This editorial simply made the claim that it was a consensus among economists that the minimum wage costs jobs. However, the writer provided no supporting data to support such a contention.

Usually the times editoral is considered empirical proof in and of itself for the left..:lol: :2wave:

In all seriousness though, there is mountains of literature on both sides of this debate, and its not something that interests me enough to go through it, so I'll leave that to the more passionate members of this argument.
Economics is a science. Contentions should be supported with empirical data. For example, if I am not mistaken, we had three minimum wage increases in the 90s. Yet, inflation was low, economic growth was very strong, and unemployment reached near record lows.

We had minimum wage increases in the 80s, yet inflation dropped in the eighties, economic growth was good, and employment was good. Adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage was at its highest in the 60s, yet from an economics perspective, we were at full employment at times in the 60s, and the economy grew like never before.

Well yes, but there are hundreds of outside factors that also affected the incredibly strong growth in the 90's and the other eras you mentioned. Absense of correlation =/= no correlation and all that jazz. Furthermore, its fallacious to assume that any one change will have a noticeable immediate impact on the economy. Things do not happen in a vacuum.
 
RightatNYU said:
That's the point that I raised in my very next post.



Usually the times editoral is considered empirical proof in and of itself for the left..:lol: :2wave:

In all seriousness though, there is mountains of literature on both sides of this debate, and its not something that interests me enough to go through it, so I'll leave that to the more passionate members of this argument.


Well yes, but there are hundreds of outside factors that also affected the incredibly strong growth in the 90's and the other eras you mentioned. Absense of correlation =/= no correlation and all that jazz. Furthermore, its fallacious to assume that any one change will have a noticeable immediate impact on the economy. Things do not happen in a vacuum.


I think the right needs to stop screwing the working public. In Colorado, food service employees are paid $2.13 per hour. I think the right is responsible for raping the working man. Tips are NOT part of a wage and they were never intended to be. The right seems to be confused on this point. Tips are meant as a bonus for a job well done and they need to be left as such.

I would like to point out that this legislation contains a section that is nothing more then the continuance of corporate welfare. This section needs to be cut and those responsible for drafting it need to be removed from office.

:2razz:
 
RightatNYU said:
That's the point that I raised in my very next post.



Usually the times editoral is considered empirical proof in and of itself for the left..:lol: :2wave:

In all seriousness though, there is mountains of literature on both sides of this debate, and its not something that interests me enough to go through it, so I'll leave that to the more passionate members of this argument.


Well yes, but there are hundreds of outside factors that also affected the incredibly strong growth in the 90's and the other eras you mentioned. Absense of correlation =/= no correlation and all that jazz. Furthermore, its fallacious to assume that any one change will have a noticeable immediate impact on the economy. Things do not happen in a vacuum.

Exactly! All things being equal, a marginal minimum wage increase should lead to increased labor costs for low end job employers, that should equate to those employers either trying to absorb those costs, or hire less people…..But, all things being equal a minimum wage increase should also lead to greater consumption by the recipients of that increase, and that consumption should mitigate much if not all of the costs of the minimum wage increase.

The problem is that all things are never equal in terms of macro-economics, and thus, one cannot find empirical evidence to support the notion that past minimum wage increases led to fewer jobs, nor can the find much evidence to suggest that they resulted in greater consumption.

The fact is, if history is any guide at all, minimum wage increases really have no effect at all on the economy as a whole either good or bad.
 
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