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G-7

Fletch said:
I dont know the extent to which we are involved beyond the obvious intel sharing and weapons supplies. What we arent involved in is the actual fighting. If you want to argue that Russia and Iran are our enemies, then we are backing proxies in Ukraine and Israel to fight them. Is this a bad thing? I dont think so. The argument for helping Ukraine is that the war is weakening Russia. Is the same not true for Iran? I was a bit apprehensive when this war with Iran began, but now that Israel has the clear upper hand, I see no reason to 'de-escalate.' At least not right now
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If British planes are shooting down Iranian missiles over the leaky Iron Dome, then you can be sure the US is too!
 
Fletch said:
I could be wrong, but I think Israel actually pays for most of its military hardware. Since 1948, the US has given Israel $148 billion is aid. About the same amount we have given Ukraine since 2022. So I am not sure that this attack on Iran is really costing us all that much. Plus the main goal here is to destroy Irans ability to get nukes and to fund the terrorist organizations that are killing Israeli civilians. Iran has been at war with Israel for decades. Israel just took the war to them. I say lets see how it plays out.
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The amount you have given them is over $300 billion when adjusted for inflation, but I would agree that they put more than that in from their own wallet.

Still, they used American war materials in this attack, and there seems to be a lot of contradictory messaging around whether or not Trump knew about it, or even gave it the green light. It would appear that at least one side of the story is that Trump was pretty involved after all. I'm not sure enabling another major conflict in that region, let alone the world, is the best optics for America right now, in light of, well, everything else. Seems like you've got enough on your plate already.

Also, Isreal is always saying Iran is ten minutes from having the bomb... just saying...

Given the confusing nature of the messaging, I admit that it's tough to debate "facts". Maybe you'll offer your opinion on a hypothetical... IF Trump gave this the green light, potentially plunging America into another long term military engagement in the middle east, either financially or by showing up with a physical presence, rather than insisting on a diplomatic solution that would save money and lives, would you support that decision or would you have hoped he would have gone in a different direction?
 
Fletch said:
How did you get that out of anything I wrote? I swear the reason there are so few actual debates here is because so few libs are actually capable of having one.
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uhm, you mean a Maga bragging style debate about "greatest" Trump achievements, alternative facts and anybody who denies is intellectual inferior? - I wount go so far to enclose all Magas, but you, together with overhelmingly most Magas are not worth reading in my eyes. I already know all your trump prayers. Go on with building up your brandnew dictatorship. :)
 
Expect more tariffs on Canada because you can't hurt the 79yo "man's" itty bitty feelings...



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Callen said:
He is leaving early. Now they can get some stuff done,
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Last time he left early it was to fly half-way around the world to legitimize Kim Jong-Un.

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OlNate said:
The amount you have given them is over $300 billion when adjusted for inflation, but I would agree that they put more than that in from their own wallet.

Still, they used American war materials in this attack, and there seems to be a lot of contradictory messaging around whether or not Trump knew about it, or even gave it the green light. It would appear that at least one side of the story is that Trump was pretty involved after all. I'm not sure enabling another major conflict in that region, let alone the world, is the best optics for America right now, in light of, well, everything else. Seems like you've got enough on your plate already.
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Im really not looking for the US to get directly involved in this and dont mind that Israel is doing all the heavy lifting. After all, they have the most at risk. I have roughly the same view of Ukraine, by the way. I dont mind a decent degree of military assistance, but Ukraine should be doing the heavy lifting with Europe doing the bulk of the support.
OlNate said:
Also, Isreal is always saying Iran is ten minutes from having the bomb... just saying...
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Lol yes. I think i have been hearing that for about 15 years
OlNate said:
Given the confusing nature of the messaging, I admit that it's tough to debate "facts". Maybe you'll offer your opinion on a hypothetical... IF Trump gave this the green light, potentially plunging America into another long term military engagement in the middle east, either financially or by showing up with a physical presence, rather than insisting on a diplomatic solution that would save money and lives, would you support that decision or would you have hoped he would have gone in a different direction?
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I dont know how much Iran can be trusted should a deal even be reached. But it doesnt seem as if the primary goal of Iran is to get nukes but instead to fund others to cause trouble in the world. Israel, for its part, seems to be taking the Michael Corleone approach and is 'settling all of the family's business.' Iran seems to be about to join Hamas, Hezbollah, Barzini and Phillip Tatalia. And that is probably a good thing for world peace. Im not eager for the US to jump in at this point, but Im not for de-escalation either. My position is to just let this play out for the next few days and see what happens.
 
german hick said:
but you, together with overhelmingly most Magas are not worth reading in my eyes.
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Yeah, im cool with that. Besides, youve been here since 2014 and I dont remember ever interacting with you anyway. So, no real loss.
 
ElChupacabra said:
It's not that simple, and some nations do maintain ties and relations. What most of the Arab world seems to be leaning into


The lack of a real game plan here is the concerning part, especially since you have Israel that's keen on eliminating the regime altogether and whatever it is Trump thinks he can get out of this. What's important to realize is Iran has not been totally decimated, so it's a bit optimistic to think they're done. What's more important is to see what's next, because toppling the regime is likely a bad idea since who replaces is it is anyone's guess, and our track record toppling regimes in Iran is pretty bad.
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Israel has the game plan here, not the US. This is largely their fight. And if the Iranian regime falls, then it falls. I dont see how a replacement could be much worse and it is possible that the Iranian people might actually see the freedom they deserve.
 
Fletch said:
Israel has the game plan here, not the US. This is largely their fight.
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Yet we're sending ships and have defended Israel from attacks that were reciprocal ones, so it's not that clear cut.

Fletch said:
And if the Iranian regime falls, then it falls. I dont see how a replacement could be much worse and it is possible that the Iranian people might actually see the freedom they deserve.
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This was the thought when Saddam was toppled and the answer to that question was "yes, it can get worse" since the US, the Iraqis, and the region had to deal with ISIL. The regime change the US made in Iran is exactly what led to the Islamic Republic.
 
ElChupacabra said:
Yet we're sending ships and have defended Israel from attacks that were reciprocal ones, so it's not that clear cut.


This was the thought when Saddam was toppled and the answer to that question was "yes, it can get worse" since the US, the Iraqis, and the region had to deal with ISIL. The regime change the US made in Iran is exactly what led to the Islamic Republic.
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Still not seeing how the falling of the mullah dictatorship is a bad thing for anyone. The idea that we must keep in place this monstrous regime simply because what might replace it could be worse is not logical thinking.
 
Fletch said:
Still not seeing how the falling of the mullah dictatorship is a bad thing for anyone. The idea that we must keep in place this monstrous regime simply because what might replace it could be worse is not logical thinking.
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It's actually logical from the perspective of avoiding national instability. While Saddam was a brutal tyrant, the threat ISIL posed and what was required to end that threat was worse than Saddam since it required more intervention from foreign powers and a dysfunctional Iraq.
 
Allan said:
Carney and Macron's body language while Trump is speaking...

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Those of us who've worked in the corporate world know what this is. It's what one does when a colleague or senior leader one knows is an idiot is saying stupid things but you have to be a pro and listen.
;)
 
If the US doesn't want to be a part of the G7 anymore, maybe they should just leave and make it the G6. Would probablly function much better without Washington.
 
Trump’s reason for leaving the G-7 was stated to be the situation in the ME. In just the last hour, the situation room meeting has started. Where was the rush?
 
Fletch said:
Im really not looking for the US to get directly involved in this and dont mind that Israel is doing all the heavy lifting. After all, they have the most at risk. I have roughly the same view of Ukraine, by the way. I dont mind a decent degree of military assistance, but Ukraine should be doing the heavy lifting with Europe doing the bulk of the support.

Lol yes. I think i have been hearing that for about 15 years

I dont know how much Iran can be trusted should a deal even be reached. But it doesnt seem as if the primary goal of Iran is to get nukes but instead to fund others to cause trouble in the world. Israel, for its part, seems to be taking the Michael Corleone approach and is 'settling all of the family's business.' Iran seems to be about to join Hamas, Hezbollah, Barzini and Phillip Tatalia. And that is probably a good thing for world peace. Im not eager for the US to jump in at this point, but Im not for de-escalation either. My position is to just let this play out for the next few days and see what happens.
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Fair enough. I mean, I don't think we reach consensus here, but I'd guess that comes down to world views - I see more value in a diplomatic approach that ultimately costs less, both financially and regarding human lives. I do understand the desire to get rid of the risk at all costs, however, even if I can't get behind it because I don't think diplomacy has really been given a chance.

A deal was on the table that Trump 1.0 deemed unacceptable and walked away from, a strong arm approach appears to have been attempted by Trump 2.0, but Trump's, let's say, demeanor likely wouldn't work so well in the ME, where shit is as much about ego as anything else (though I suppose that's not all that different from the rest of the world, they just tend to be more willing to put their money where their mouth is, irrespective of the odds)...and Biden didn't do anything of note as far as I can tell, so, to me, diplomacy has not been really handled all that well, to where I would believe that a military response is required or appropriate here. My personal view is that a country should not take up the business of killing people until all other angles have been tried.

However, since Trump and Biden both failed to really show up for diplomacy, and if Israel can be believed "this time" about the imminent nature of Iran's ability to send a nuclear bomb anywhere with effect, then I guess there's not a lot of choice left. This should be seen as a failure by those who voted for Trump, believing that he would not be as hawkish as the right alleged the left is during the election (remember the whole Cheney fiasco?)...but after a certain point I guess it doesn't really matter, in terms of what needs to be done next. Certainly I wouldn't put a lot of hope in the current administration to have the savy and nuance to avoid military conflict diplomatically, so... 🤷‍♂️ war it is.

I suppose the only thing left to see is how involved you'll actually have to become. Looks like Jordan is already talking shit, I guess we'll find out what the rest of the ME does about this, and what that means for you. To me this is just another case of something both terrible and unnecessary. There's been a little too much of that lately, in my opinion.
 
I wonder if Trump's sudden departure was due to the fact Zelensky was at the meetings today?*

Volodymyr got his seat at the (now) grown up's table 😁

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*could also be heel spurs.
 
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