Front line docs say that vents are being over used

[Hawkeye10]

With ventilators running out, doctors say the machines are overused for Covid-19

None of this means that ventilators are not necessary in the Covid-19 crisis, or that hospitals are wrong to fear running out. But as doctors learn more about treating Covid-19, and question old dogma about blood oxygen and the need for ventilators, they might be able to substitute simpler and more widely available devices.
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As doctors learn more about the disease, however, both frontline experience and a few small studies are leading him and others to question how, and how often, mechanical ventilators are used for Covid-19.

The first batch of evidence relates to how often the machines fail to help. “Contrary to the impression that if extremely ill patients with Covid-19 are treated with ventilators they will live and if they are not, they will die, the reality is far different,” said geriatric and palliative care physician Muriel Gillick of Harvard Medical School.

Researchers in Wuhan, for instance, reported that, of 37 critically ill Covid-19 patients who were put on mechanical ventilators, 30 died within a month. In a U.S. study of patients in Seattle, only one of the seven patients older than 70 who were put on a ventilator survived; just 36% of those younger than 70 did. And in a study published by JAMA on Monday, physicians in Italy reported that nearly 90% of 1,300 critically ill patients with Covid-19 were intubated and put on a ventilator; only 11% received noninvasive ventilation. One-quarter died in the ICU; 58% were still in the ICU, and 16% had been discharged.

Ventilators are overused for Covid-19 patients, doctors say - STAT

I have been seeing this questioning of ventilator protocols for over a week. We need to get to the bottom of this fast, as we are running out of the drugs needed to use vents, which if we do run out will kneecap our ability to use them.

Hospitals face shortage of drugs for ventilators | TheHill

 

[Mach]

Some doctors are questioning it, but without any data or treatment to back what they are saying.
In other words, some anecdotal gibberish. (it's maybe something they can case study at some point, but he's drawing a conclusion before anything is studied, it's absurd).

They say treatment already is to use non-invasive methods if blood oxygen falls lower than normal, but not dangerously low. That's what they have been doing.
Lots of people getting put on oxygen. In that article it says CV19 can hit so hard that they drop to rarely seen low levels of blood oxygen, and that it's always only a ventilator that can boost that.
CPAP and oxygen won't work there, and that's why they don't use it.

Yes, risk of dying once you are that bad off, is high...and yet they do still save lives on ventilators. But they offered no actual advice from what I read, that would lead doctors to do anything different than they already are.

What did you specifically read that made you think doctors are not doing something widespread in treating CV19 patients, that you think this article addresses?

 

[Hamish Howl]

Some doctors are questioning it, but without any data or treatment to back what they are saying.
In other words, some anecdotal gibberish. (it's maybe something they can case study at some point, but he's drawing a conclusion before anything is studied, it's absurd).

They say treatment already is to use non-invasive methods if blood oxygen falls lower than normal, but not dangerously low. That's what they have been doing.
Lots of people getting put on oxygen. In that article it says CV19 can hit so hard that they drop to rarely seen low levels of blood oxygen, and that it's always only a ventilator that can boost that.
CPAP and oxygen won't work there, and that's why they don't use it.

Yes, risk of dying once you are that bad off, is high...and yet they do still save lives on ventilators. But they offered no actual advice from what I read, that would lead doctors to do anything different than they already are.

What did you specifically read that made you think doctors are not doing something widespread in treating CV19 patients, that you think this article addresses?

CPAP is worse than nothing at all, unless the person using it is in a bubble. CPAP basically winds up spraying the virus all over everything nearby, similar to having the person coughing nonstop.

 

[Mach]

CPAP is worse than nothing at all, unless the person using it is in a bubble. CPAP basically winds up spraying the virus all over everything nearby, similar to having the person coughing nonstop.

Interesting. But yeah the article specifically says people are given non-invasive if blood oxygen levels are not dangerous, but are appreciably low to need treatment.
Which is what the argument is? Not to use invasive, unless necessary. Which the article says, is exactly what is happening.

I really don't get why the title is what it is, or why those individuals are claiming to know over-use exists, with no data or reasoning to back it.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Some doctors are questioning it, but without any data or treatment to back what they are saying.
In other words, some anecdotal gibberish. (it's maybe something they can case study at some point, but he's drawing a conclusion before anything is studied, it's absurd).

They say treatment already is to use non-invasive methods if blood oxygen falls lower than normal, but not dangerously low. That's what they have been doing.
Lots of people getting put on oxygen. In that article it says CV19 can hit so hard that they drop to rarely seen low levels of blood oxygen, and that it's always only a ventilator that can boost that.
CPAP and oxygen won't work there, and that's why they don't use it.

Yes, risk of dying once you are that bad off, is high...and yet they do still save lives on ventilators. But they offered no actual advice from what I read, that would lead doctors to do anything different than they already are.

What did you specifically read that made you think doctors are not doing something widespread in treating CV19 patients, that you think this article addresses?

We dont have months or years for the pro's with the "proper" shingle to figure it out with "proper" studies......we need to trust our medical warriors.

 

[swing_voter]

Yeah, you don't want to go on a ventilator. It's over a 50% chance that you die. You don't want to have to roll those dice.

Stop smoking, lose weight. You can't do much about being old.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Interesting. But yeah the article specifically says people are given non-invasive if blood oxygen levels are not dangerous, but are appreciably low to need treatment.
Which is what the argument is? Not to use invasive, unless necessary. Which the article says, is exactly what is happening.

I really don't get why the title is what it is, or why those individuals are claiming to know over-use exists, with no data or reasoning to back it.

Because they are invested in a "reality silo" that is divorced from actual reality.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Yeah, you don't want to go on a ventilator. It's over a 50% chance that you die. You don't want to have to roll those dice.

Stop smoking, lose weight. You can't do much about being old.

I'm hearing the survival rate once you reach the ventilator stage, world-wide, ranges from 15-20%.

 

[Hamish Howl]

We dont have months or years for the pro's with the "proper" shingle to figure it out with "proper" studies......we need to trust our medical warriors.

Yes, we can't trust medical scientists, we need to barge out and do something.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Yeah, you don't want to go on a ventilator. It's over a 50% chance that you die. You don't want to have to roll those dice.

Stop smoking, lose weight. You can't do much about being old.

Even you live your quality of life might well be poor....the longer a person is on these things that less of a chance there is for a good outcome....meanwhile they are sucking up scarce drugs multiple times a day.

We need to limit the use of these things to those who have the best chances, and not use them till we must.

Almost all of these needed drugs coming from China and India is a huge problem.

Our elites should have been able to see this problem coming.

Apparently they did not.

 

[Mach]

Even you live your quality of life might well be poor....the longer a person is on these things that less of a chance there is for a good outcome....meanwhile they are sucking up scarce drugs multiple times a day.
We need to limit the use of these things to those who have the best chances, and not use them till we must.
Almost all of these needed drugs coming from China and India is a huge problem.
Our elites should have been able to see this problem coming.
Apparently they did not.

I see, you're saying we should death panel people, based on "conserving resources". I bet you can sign a waiver that says you don't want extreme life saving measures.

But don't think you get to decide for me, or physicians.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Yes, we can't trust medical scientists, we need to barge out and do something.

Since they are useless at the moment because it takes them so long to do their jobs Hell Yes....we need to do the best we can....which I say means trusting our medical warriors.

If I am wrong then tell me how I am wrong.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Even you live your quality of life might well be poor....the longer a person is on these things that less of a chance there is for a good outcome....meanwhile they are sucking up scarce drugs multiple times a day.

We need to limit the use of these things to those who have the best chances, and not use them till we must.

Almost all of these needed drugs coming from China and India is a huge problem.

Our elites should have been able to see this problem coming.

Apparently they did not.

AND THEN WE HAD DEATH PANELS! woop woop!

 

[Hawkeye10]

I see, you're saying we should death panel people, based on "conserving resources". I bet you can sign a waiver that says you don't want extreme life saving measures.

But don't think you get to decide for me, or physicians.

When the medical system collapses due to lack of drugs the doctors on the front lines will decide who gets saved and who does not.....that is how this works....it is the only way this can work.

If you dont like it tough cookies.

Deal with reality.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Since they are useless at the moment because it takes them so long to do their jobs Hell Yes....we need to do the best we can....which I say means trusting our medical warriors.

If I am wrong then tell me how I am wrong.

I know that when there is a storm when you're on an airliner, you should run up and grab the controls off of that lazy "expert" in the cockpit.

 

[Hawkeye10]

AND THEN WE HAD DEATH PANELS! woop woop!

Deal with reality I say.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I know that when there is a storm when you're on an airliner, you should run up and grab the controls off of that lazy "expert" in the cockpit.

You dont have a point.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Deal with reality I say.

 

[Hamish Howl]

You dont have a point.

I do. It's in my sig.

 

[Mach]

When the medical system collapses due to lack of drugs the doctors on the front lines will decide who gets saved and who does not.....that is how this works....it is the only way this can work.
Deal with reality.

When is this medical system collapsing? Oh my, sounds like sky is falling based no nonsense...yet again!

So death panels for Hawkeye10. Check.

 

[Hamish Howl]

When is this medical system collapsing? Oh my, sounds like sky is falling based no nonsense...yet again!

So death panels for Hawkeye10. Check.

Well, we can't trust the educated. They say things that we don't like. We just need a rugged individualist to snatch that tube out of granny's throat in case Hawkeye needs it.

Honestly, have you ever seen such defeatism?

 

[ttwtt78640]

We dont have months or years for the pro's with the "proper" shingle to figure it out with "proper" studies......we need to trust our medical warriors.

Our medical warriors are the end of the line for perhaps 20% (testing is required to actually know that "data point") of those infected with (and thus able to spread) COVID-19. The problem is that other 80% who must handle things largely on their own, often without knowing that they are, in fact, COVID-19 spreaders for quite a while if ever.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Our medical warriors are the end of the line for perhaps 20% (testing is required to actually know that "data point") of those infected with (and thus able to spread) COVID-19. The problem is that other 80% who must handle things largely on their own, often without knowing that they are, in fact, COVID-19 spreaders for quite a while if ever.

So What....I imagine that you imagine that you have a point related to the quote you used.... I dont see it.