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From 'Gook' to 'Raghead'

26 X World Champs

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Today's Bob Herbert OP-ED piece in the NY Times is truly upsetting. For any of you who think this is some sort of sick liberal bias I suggest that you check out the credentials of all involved. I also realize some of you will say this stuff happens during times of war, but wait until you read about the Coke bottles before you make up your mind. I am curious as to what you all think?
By BOB HERBERT

Published: May 2, 2005

I spent some time recently with Aidan Delgado, a 23-year-old religion major at New College of Florida, a small, highly selective school in Sarasota.

On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, before hearing anything about the terror attacks that would change the direction of American history, Mr. Delgado enlisted as a private in the Army Reserve. Suddenly, in ways he had never anticipated, the military took over his life. He was trained as a mechanic and assigned to the 320th Military Police Company in St. Petersburg. By the spring of 2003, he was in Iraq. Eventually he would be stationed at the prison compound in Abu Ghraib.

Mr. Delgado's background is unusual. He is an American citizen, but because his father was in the diplomatic corps, he grew up overseas. He spent eight years in Egypt, speaks Arabic and knows a great deal about the various cultures of the Middle East. He wasn't happy when, even before his unit left the states, a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans.

"He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him."

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

He said he had confronted guys who were his friends about this practice. "I said to them: 'What the hell are you doing? Like, what does this accomplish?' And they responded just completely openly. They said: 'Look, I hate being in Iraq. I hate being stuck here. And I hate being surrounded by hajis.' "

"Haji" is the troops' term of choice for an Iraqi. It's used the way "gook" or "Charlie" was used in Vietnam.

Mr. Delgado said he had witnessed incidents in which an Army sergeant lashed a group of children with a steel Humvee antenna, and a Marine corporal planted a vicious kick in the chest of a kid about 6 years old. There were many occasions, he said, when soldiers or marines would yell and curse and point their guns at Iraqis who had done nothing wrong.

He said he believes that the absence of any real understanding of Arab or Muslim culture by most G.I.'s, combined with a lack of proper training and the unrelieved tension of life in a war zone, contributes to levels of fear and rage that lead to frequent instances of unnecessary violence.

Mr. Delgado, an extremely thoughtful and serious young man, balked at the entire scene. "It drove me into a moral quagmire," he said. "I walked up to my commander and gave him my weapon. I said: 'I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to kill anyone. This war is wrong. I'll stay. I'll finish my job as a mechanic. But I'm not going to hurt anyone. And I want to be processed as a conscientious objector.' "

He stayed with his unit and endured a fair amount of ostracism. "People would say I was a traitor or a coward," he said. "The stuff you would expect."

In November 2003, after several months in Nasiriya in southern Iraq, the 320th was redeployed to Abu Ghraib. The violence there was sickening, Mr. Delgado said. Some inmates were beaten nearly to death. The G.I.'s at Abu Ghraib lived in cells while most of the detainees were housed in large overcrowded tents set up in outdoor compounds that were vulnerable to mortars fired by insurgents. The Army acknowledges that at least 32 Abu Ghraib detainees were killed by mortar fire.

Mr. Delgado, who eventually got conscientious objector status and was honorably discharged last January, recalled a disturbance that occurred while he was working in the Abu Ghraib motor pool. Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

Mr. Delgado confronted a sergeant who, he said, had fired on the detainees. "I asked him," said Mr. Delgado, "if he was proud that he had shot unarmed men behind barbed wire for throwing stones. He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' "

E-mail: bobherb@nytimes.com
 

akyron

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People that throw rocks at trained men with automatic weapons are begging to be drained out of the gene pool.


I read a story awhile back where over a dozen kids were wounded while tossing stones at a tanks with a mounted heavy machine gunner on it. They hit the guy and he opened up. I am not saying its right. It is just stupid and a good way to commit suicide.

Rocks can be deadly as well and if you get hit you may suffer injury or brain damage. People get stoned to death all the time in history and even religious literature.


If someone hits me with a rock and it appears more are coming they better hope I am not armed.


The abuse stuff I disagree with and they need to secure that as soon as possible.
 

26 X World Champs

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akyron said:
People that throw rocks at trained men with automatic weapons are begging to be drained out of the gene pool.

If someone hits me with a rock and it appears more are coming they better hope I am not armed.

The abuse stuff I disagree with and they need to secure that as soon as possible.
However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.
 

ludahai

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26 X World Champs said:
However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.
My cousin just head to the North (as Iraq is referred to those stationed in Kuwait.) I am waiting to hear from him as to what he is seeing there. I will certainly trust what he tells me more than any editorialist from the New York Times.
 

akyron

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26 X World Champs said:
However, what you've suggested is not the case here.

Perhaps I misread it. Is appears to be exactly the case I was referring to.

Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

There are many more similar incidents occurring around the Israeli /Palestine conflict as well.

I disagree with the abusing. I already said that.
 

Pacridge

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26 X World Champs said:
However, what you've suggested is not the case here. The US soldiers, for kicks, were driving around bashing Coke bottles on civilians UNPROVOKED. That is the equivalent of throwing stones at people for no reason.

It's just the sick mentality that we're better than you are that makes people do such outrageously evil acts.
There was a report that alluded to this back in December in US World News and Reports. I’ve asked several returning Guard members about this type activity. Basically the word I’ve gotten is it does happen but it’s certainly not the norm. Kind of the 80-20% kind of thing. Or in this case it may be more of a 95-5% situation. I think most of our guys ( and gals) are trying to do the right thing and have good moral standards. But we’ve got a lot of very young people in a very stressful situation. Couple that with some obviously poor leadership (see Abu Ghraib) and you’ve got a really bad pot of coffee brewing. Put yourself in their shoes. You go out on patrol every day wondering whether or not you’re coming back to write a letter home or whether your commander office’s going to be writing one home for you. Then every once and while some one you knows get blown up by a roadside bomb, in part due to the fact your leaders can’t seem to find your unit proper armor. Now- 95% of you probably wouldn’t get pushed over the edge by those circumstances. The other 5%?
 

shuamort

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akyron said:
People get stoned to death all the time in history and even religious literature.
I don't know why, but I feel like I should expound on that thought:

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/
"The condemned are wrapped head to foot in white shrouds and buried up to their waists.

Then the stoning begins. The stones are specifically chosen so they are large enough to cause pain, but not so large as to kill the condemned immediately. They are guaranteed a slow, torturous death. Sometimes their children are forced to watch. Their offense is usually adultery."
:(
 

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shuamort said:
I don't know why, but I feel like I should expound on that thought:

http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/
:(
Now why would any one be fearful of a state sanctioned well organized religion? I know it could never happen here. That's why we don't see people running around with signs that say "God hates Fags." And we don't have people tied to barbed wire fences, beaten and left to die in the middle of winter because people found out they were gay. Oh, wait we do have those things happening here. Boy liberals sure are nasty and mean.
 

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Boy liberals sure are nasty and mean.
Let's get a little balance here. The media barely made mention of the little boy that was beaten, raped and murdered by gays. They stuffed a rag in his mouth to shut him up. We can come up with plenty of disgusting behavior by the left. I wouldn't push it unless you want the flood gates to open.
 
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26 X World Champs said:
Today's Bob Herbert OP-ED piece in the NY Times is truly upsetting. For any of you who think this is some sort of sick liberal bias I suggest that you check out the credentials of all involved. I also realize some of you will say this stuff happens during times of war, but wait until you read about the Coke bottles before you make up your mind. I am curious as to what you all think?
I've copied the paragraph dealing with the coke bottles.

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

I think there are two reasons why this tale is a tale. A fable. An untruth.

First, I don't believe that Coke that is packaged for overseas destinations is put up in glass bottles. In fact, not very much Coke in glass bottles is distributed in the US. Glass bottles are more expensive to produce than cans or plastic containers. For a given capacity, glass it is considerably heavier than an aluminum can or plastic containers. Glass bottles, because of their shape and thickness, occupy more transport space. Glass bottles are highly subject to breakage in the rough handling involved in intercontinental shipping and local distribution by military trucks over bad roads.

Are there any Coke bottles in Iraq? I seriously doubt it.

Second, is a matter of simple physics. Are these soldiers in the Humvees standing? Sitting? If they are sitting, they would be unable to strike a person on the head unless the person was standing within a foot of the passing vehicle with his head bent down. Is this reasonable? No. Is the soldier standing? If so, we still have the problem of a person standing within a foot of the passing vehicle. Only now he may be erect. Still not reasonable.

In either case, if the bottle is swung and strikes the victim's head, because of the movement of the vehicle, it can only be glancing blow which would deflect the bottle. Then, too, if the target is wearing a turban, or any other kind of headgear, as Muslims do, much of the force would be absorbed and the bottle would not shatter.

Did you say that the bottle was thrown? Well, that's not much help to the story. After all, we still have a moving vehicle, a live target still most likely wearing a turban or other headgear, to which we add, a greater distance to throw, good aim required to get a head shot.

The greater the distance involved, the slower the projectile will be moving when it reaches the target, further reducing the likelihood that any shattering will occur.

This story reads like a second rate TV soap opera that is filled with fabricated inconsistencies which are required to make the plot work.

But then, what would one expect from the mirror image of Corporal Max Klinger of M*A*S*H fame; the epitome of the malcontent who was constantly dreaming up new schemes to try to get himself out of the army?

The only difference between them is that Klinger repeatedly failed to get out but Delgado managed to succeed.

I guess it was a slow day at the NY Slimes that there was so many column inches that could be used by Mr. Herbert who obviously slept through the physics classes, if he took any.

Damn, I can never find the BS emoticon when I need it.

This is the best I can do right now. (_?_)
 
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akyron

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Pacridge said:
Now why would any one be fearful of a state sanctioned well organized religion? I know it could never happen here. That's why we don't see people running around with signs that say "God hates Fags." And we don't have people tied to barbed wire fences, beaten and left to die in the middle of winter because people found out they were gay. Oh, wait we do have those things happening here. Boy liberals sure are nasty and mean.

So bad things only happend to gays in the USA? I disbelieve.



Uniform Crime Report 2004


Death is not a final diagnosis — Murder rates in US cities comparable to Iraq!



http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Death may not be a final medical diagnosis but the state of being dead is final! Are the deaths of our courageous soldiers any more final than those who die on our own streets?


On September 8, 2004, the Los Angeles Times reported (The Conflict In Iraq, U.S. Toll in Iraq Reaches 1,000) that through September 7, 2004, 1,000 US soldiers lost their lives in Iraq due to both hostile and non-hostile actions. This is certainly a tragic loss correctly reported in the media and mourned by the US populace. However focusing exclusively on these statistics does not provide the much needed perspective.


According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report of May 24, 2004, the number of murders reported during calendar years 2002 and 2003 show a comparable death toll exists in several US cities. Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City reported 1,168, 1,246 and 1,184 murders during the subject 24-month period.


As these murders are reported over a 24-month period and the US death toll in Iraq covers an 18-month period they cannot be directly compared, however the average deaths per month establishes a more valid comparison.


The average monthly death toll for US soldiers in Iraq is 55.6 deaths per month while the average reported murders per month in Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City are 48.7, 51.9 and 49.3 deaths per month. The murder statistics in the US cities are for hostile deaths only — whereas the death toll in Iraq includes both hostile and accidental deaths. This makes our own murder rates in LA, Chicago and NYC even more appalling. Yet there is not an equivalent amount of reporting or hand wringing.



Apparently Iraq isnt that much more dangerous than East LA according to this. I have serious doubts about that.
 

26 X World Champs

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shuamort said:
How shocking, out of the ordinary that people within the "good old boys club" of the military would deny all? Never happened! Never could happen!

The soldier that Herbert quotes is a religious student at a University in Florida. How many soldiers do you know that are granted Conscientious Objector status while in a war zone? How does one measure creditability? To suggest that our soldiers are saints who do not practice racism and commits acts of violence in Iraq is just plain wrong.

It's like the denials about torturing prisoners, etc. Until the Military is forced to admit wrongdoing they will not, rather they will deny, deny, deny.

We're talking about attacks against Iraqi civilians, unprovoked. You know, the people who we are supposedly liberating?

Sadly, all of these problems are the negative side effects of a wrongful war. At least 20,000 Iraqi civilians have already been killed.

The bottom line for me is that whomever is committing atrocities against people deserve to face the music.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
How shocking, out of the ordinary that people within the "good old boys club" of the military would deny all? Never happened! Never could happen!

The soldier that Herbert quotes is a religious student at a University in Florida. How many soldiers do you know that are granted Conscientious Objector status while in a war zone? How does one measure creditability? To suggest that our soldiers are saints who do not practice racism and commits acts of violence in Iraq is just plain wrong.

It's like the denials about torturing prisoners, etc. Until the Military is forced to admit wrongdoing they will not, rather they will deny, deny, deny.

We're talking about attacks against Iraqi civilians, unprovoked. You know, the people who we are supposedly liberating?

Sadly, all of these problems are the negative side effects of a wrongful war. At least 20,000 Iraqi civilians have already been killed.

The bottom line for me is that whomever is committing atrocities against people deserve to face the music.
Are you ready to concede that the "Coke" bottle shattering incident was fabricated because it is an economic, logistic, and physical impossibility?
 

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Sadly, all of these problems are the negative side effects of a wrongful war. At least 20,000 Iraqi civilians have already been killed.

The bottom line for me is that whomever is committing atrocities against people deserve to face the music.
Does that also pertain to John Kerry who admitted to it? This is the same anti-war propaganda folks heard about Viet-Nam. Some of it was true but most of it was exaggerated and blown out of proportion. What purpose does it serve? Does it help out soldiers in the field or at home? Would that be 20,000 innocent Iraqi's?
 

RightinNYC

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The coke bottle incident seemed far fetched the minute I read the op-ed.

Any soldier who wants to leave a war zone will say whatever they can in order to get out/make waves.

And I see people with "God hates Republicans" signs, but I'm not complaining about a violation of my civil rights.

If you're comparing signs that may be offensive to government sanctioned and encouraged stoning for minor crimes, then things aren't so bad.
 

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Fantasea said:
I've copied the paragraph dealing with the coke bottles.

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

I think there are two reasons why this tale is a tale. A fable. An untruth.

First, I don't believe that Coke that is packaged for overseas destinations is put up in glass bottles. In fact, not very much Coke in glass bottles is distributed in the US. Glass bottles are more expensive to produce than cans or plastic containers. For a given capacity, glass it is considerably heavier than an aluminum can or plastic containers. Glass bottles, because of their shape and thickness, occupy more transport space. Glass bottles are highly subject to breakage in the rough handling involved in intercontinental shipping and local distribution by military trucks over bad roads.

Are there any Coke bottles in Iraq? I seriously doubt it.

Second, is a matter of simple physics. Are these soldiers in the Humvees standing? Sitting? If they are sitting, they would be unable to strike a person on the head unless the person was standing within a foot of the passing vehicle with his head bent down. Is this reasonable? No. Is the soldier standing? If so, we still have the problem of a person standing within a foot of the passing vehicle. Only now he may be erect. Still not reasonable.

In either case, if the bottle is swung and strikes the victim's head, because of the movement of the vehicle, it can only be glancing blow which would deflect the bottle. Then, too, if the target is wearing a turban, or any other kind of headgear, as Muslims do, much of the force would be absorbed and the bottle would not shatter.

Did you say that the bottle was thrown? Well, that's not much help to the story. After all, we still have a moving vehicle, a live target still most likely wearing a turban or other headgear, to which we add, a greater distance to throw, good aim required to get a head shot.

The greater the distance involved, the slower the projectile will be moving when it reaches the target, further reducing the likelihood that any shattering will occur.

This story reads like a second rate TV soap opera that is filled with fabricated inconsistencies which are required to make the plot work.

But then, what would one expect from the mirror image of Corporal Max Klinger of M*A*S*H fame; the epitome of the malcontent who was constantly dreaming up new schemes to try to get himself out of the army?

The only difference between them is that Klinger repeatedly failed to get out but Delgado managed to succeed.

I guess it was a slow day at the NY Slimes that there was so many column inches that could be used by Mr. Herbert who obviously slept through the physics classes, if he took any.

Damn, I can never find the BS emoticon when I need it.

This is the best I can do right now. (_?_)
Coke has bottling plants all over the world.
 

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Fantasea said:
1. Except in Iraq.

2. Explain the physics.
You know for a fact Coke has no plants in Iraq?

Even if they don't, why would they ship Coke all the way around the world when they could buy it cheaper from a more local source? I know from being in places like Kenya that Coke is plentiful in bottles. I also know from being in the military that that the military tends to buy from local sources when avail. for one due to freshness. When I was in Bahrain the US military did ship beer in from the US because the countries in the Middle East don’t allow alcohol sales. We had one club on base that sold you two beers a day. It was known as the "American Support Unit." Guy's called it the "Alcohol Support Unit." That beer tasted terrible because of the preservatives used in it. My guess is if they can get coke from a closer supplier they do.



Explain what physics? Your whole standing and sittting story is nonsense.

 

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Pacridge said:
You know for a fact Coke has no plants in Iraq?
Check the Coca-Cola website. No bottling plants in Iraq.

Explain what physics? Your whole standing and sittting story is nonsense.
[/QUOTE]

The physics involved in striking a civilian with a bottle from a moving Humvee. Perhaps you just glanced at the post, or chose to ignore it, but the argument that it's nearly impossible for that part of the story to be true is very compelling.

Funny how you'd choose to believe one account without reservation, but question anyone who would take the story with a grain of salt.
 

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Kevin Johnson said:
Check the Coca-Cola website. No bottling plants in Iraq.

Explain what physics? Your whole standing and sittting story is nonsense.
The physics involved in striking a civilian with a bottle from a moving Humvee. Perhaps you just glanced at the post, or chose to ignore it, but the argument that it's nearly impossible for that part of the story to be true is very compelling.

Funny how you'd choose to believe one account without reservation, but question anyone who would take the story with a grain of salt.[/QUOTE]

So you think it's impossible to throw an object such as a Coke bottle from a moving vehicle and hit a person. Well I hate to tell you this but having been a parole officer for some 16 years I can tell you that I've had a number of young people on my case load that have been convicted of throwing items at people walking down the street from moving vehicles. On two separate occasions the reasons they were convicted of the crime was they video taped the event as it occurred. Granted neither of these video taped incidents involved Coke bottled and neither occurred in Iraq. But throwing a bottle from a moving vehicle most certainly is possible. As is hitting someone with it and causing major injuries.

I read it. I just found it to be nonsense.
 

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akyron said:
So bad things only happend to gays in the USA? I disbelieve.



Uniform Crime Report 2004


Death is not a final diagnosis — Murder rates in US cities comparable to Iraq!



http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Death may not be a final medical diagnosis but the state of being dead is final! Are the deaths of our courageous soldiers any more final than those who die on our own streets?


On September 8, 2004, the Los Angeles Times reported (The Conflict In Iraq, U.S. Toll in Iraq Reaches 1,000) that through September 7, 2004, 1,000 US soldiers lost their lives in Iraq due to both hostile and non-hostile actions. This is certainly a tragic loss correctly reported in the media and mourned by the US populace. However focusing exclusively on these statistics does not provide the much needed perspective.


According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report of May 24, 2004, the number of murders reported during calendar years 2002 and 2003 show a comparable death toll exists in several US cities. Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City reported 1,168, 1,246 and 1,184 murders during the subject 24-month period.


As these murders are reported over a 24-month period and the US death toll in Iraq covers an 18-month period they cannot be directly compared, however the average deaths per month establishes a more valid comparison.


The average monthly death toll for US soldiers in Iraq is 55.6 deaths per month while the average reported murders per month in Los Angeles, Chicago and New York City are 48.7, 51.9 and 49.3 deaths per month. The murder statistics in the US cities are for hostile deaths only — whereas the death toll in Iraq includes both hostile and accidental deaths. This makes our own murder rates in LA, Chicago and NYC even more appalling. Yet there is not an equivalent amount of reporting or hand wringing.



Apparently Iraq isnt that much more dangerous than East LA according to this. I have serious doubts about that.
Where in my post did I ever say anything to the effect of "bad things only happend to gays in the USA" ?
 

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Pacridge said:
So you think it's impossible to throw an object such as a Coke bottle from a moving vehicle and hit a person. Well I hate to tell you this but having been a parole officer for some 16 years I can tell you that I've had a number of young people on my case load that have been convicted of throwing items at people walking down the street from moving vehicles. On two separate occasions the reasons they were convicted of the crime was they video taped the event as it occurred. Granted neither of these video taped incidents involved Coke bottled and neither occurred in Iraq. But throwing a bottle from a moving vehicle most certainly is possible. As is hitting someone with it and causing major injuries.

I read it. I just found it to be nonsense.
I never said it was impossible to throw a bottle and hit a person, but that's not what the accuser claims happened. Note the wording in his story:

Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."
"break over their heads", not "throw at them" or anything else. That very obviously says the soldiers were holding the bottles and hitting the civilians.

I don't deny there are instances of abuse and mistreatment of Iraqi civilians. I just don't buy this guy's story. There's too much of it that doesn't make sense, and his status as a CO and desire to get out of the fighting make his motives and his story suspect.
 

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Kevin Johnson said:
I never said it was impossible to throw a bottle and hit a person, but that's not what the accuser claims happened. Note the wording in his story:



"break over their heads", not "throw at them" or anything else. That very obviously says the soldiers were holding the bottles and hitting the civilians.

I don't deny there are instances of abuse and mistreatment of Iraqi civilians. I just don't buy this guy's story. There's too much of it that doesn't make sense, and his status as a CO and desire to get out of the fighting make his motives and his story suspect.
Oh, I see. See when you said “The physics involved in striking a civilian with a bottle from a moving Humvee Perhaps you just glanced at the post, or chose to ignore it, but the argument that it's nearly impossible for that part of the story to be true is very compelling.” I took that to mean you were questioning the physics of hitting someone from a moving vehicle.



So now your main problem is that the bottles were breaking?



I don’t know I wasn’t there, obviously. I do know I have spoken to several guys who have been there and they tell me these types of incidents do occur. I never asked about Coke bottles breaking. But just as I said in an earlier post I certainly don’t think they’re the norm or the accepted behavior of our troops.
 
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