From each and to Each

[lizzie]

In this case, I view it as both normal and healthy.

Why?

because I view your approach as fundamentally unhealthy and causes me to have concern for you and your well being. Also, I believe people with the value system are to be feared because its a bit sociopathic.

Correct me if I am not understanding you the way you mean to come accross. I believe that people who willingly give to others actually help themselves via self-improvement. I believe that giving should be done willingly from the heart rather than done due to social pressure and guilt, and you see this as sociopathic? Are you serious?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Why?

There are many motivations to give. Ultimately, the best reason stems from wanting to give. If a person is giving only because there is a perceived benefit to themselves, than that is not giving, but a form of selfishness. If a person can never get past their own self, than they have an emotional issue. You seem to advocate giving, only because it enhances you, even if that enhancement is a good feeling or whatever.

Correct me if I am not understanding you the way you mean to come accross. I believe that people who willingly give to others actually help themselves via self-improvement. I believe that giving should be done willingly from the heart rather than done due to social pressure and guilt, and you see this as sociopathic? Are you serious?

I never mentioned social pressure. I am a pretty introverted guy, who most of the time doesn't even notice when I am in a situation where I should even be feeling social pressure, so trust me, it is rarely a motivation. However, that doesn't mean that doing the right thing doesn't often suck because people can be ingrates. But others being bad does not negate good, nor does it negate good intentions. Those things stand on their own.

If you are looking at this thing from a selfish perspective, than fundamentally all human interaction is an exchange of value, similar to a market. However, from my perspective, there can be times I gain no value in either a resource or emotional sense. I do something good, in the case of the driving the guy to church, it was a PITA because I am always running late to church and the people did not understand the value I placed on my sacrifice in gas, time, etc. Because they did not recognize it, they did not reciprocate. That made the venture not pleasurable sometimes, but I did it anyway because it was the right thing and I am mature enough to do the right thing in the face of negative or neutral response. Now you say I gained value in self improvement. Well I contend that self improvement is not always satisfying for reasons mentioned earlier in this paragraph and is ultimately a neutral thing in terms of emotional positive or resource positive value. It is both emotion and resource neutral. So it does not work in terms of transaction and therefore cannot be a selfish motivation. However, I continue to do these sorts of things because I conclude in my mind that it is the right and proper thing despite what others do.

But yes, if you only help people because you believe it brings good to you, than you are never not focused on you and there is something very wrong there.

 

[lizzie]

Ahhhh, now I see how you misunderstood my point completely, and I see why you think my beliefs are sociopathic, which is not the case at all.

Ultimately, the best reason stems from wanting to give.

That’s what I was saying.

However, I continue to do these sorts of things because I conclude in my mind that it is the right and proper thing despite what others do.Well I contend that self improvement is not always satisfying for reasons mentioned earlier in this paragraph and is ultimately a neutral thing in terms of emotional positive or resource positive value. It is both emotion and resource neutral. So it does not work in terms of transaction and therefore cannot be a selfish motivation.

There’s no problem with doing things because you believe they are right and proper. My point is that it is based in guilt and not love. If that’s the way people are motivated, it’s okay with me, but doing things because you “ought to” rather than because you “want to” does seem to have a tendency to cause resentment, usually subconscious. I believe this is where the emotional and physical troubles you mentioned earlier stem from. And I would disagree that this cannot be a selfish motivation. It’s very common to do things for others in order to seek approval, to feel good about oneself, to look good to others, and any of a number of other motivations.

But yes, if you only help people because you believe it brings good to you, than you are never not focused on you and there is something very wrong there

That is not at all what I was saying. I’m talking about results and outcomes- you are assigning a motive that doesn’t exist.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Ahhhh, now I see how you misunderstood my point completely, and I see why you think my beliefs are sociopathic, which is not the case at all.

That’s what I was saying.

There’s no problem with doing things because you believe they are right and proper. My point is that it is based in guilt and not love. If that’s the way people are motivated, it’s okay with me, but doing things because you “ought to” rather than because you “want to” does seem to have a tendency to cause resentment, usually subconscious. I believe this is where the emotional and physical troubles you mentioned earlier stem from. And I would disagree that this cannot be a selfish motivation. It’s very common to do things for others in order to seek approval, to feel good about oneself, to look good to others, and any of a number of other motivations.

That is not at all what I was saying. I’m talking about results and outcomes- you are assigning a motive that doesn’t exist.

Perhaps we missed each other.

I would feel no guilt from not doing this because I am perfectly fine with me telling myself that I do not have adequate resources at any given time. I would not feel guilty either. I used to, but one day I looked at it and decided that guilt was unnecessary and unwarranted. Since than, I have not felt guilty. Yet I still do things. Last Sunday I went and got a stool for a guy for no personal benefit. In fact, I was pushing a stroller at the same time and it was not easy to do (with having to avoid a three stooges moment with the awkward handling of the stool and stroller, about 400 feet through hallways and stuff with people around). I did it anyway because I felt like it (and I had nothing better to do, so why not help out). I did not do it to feel proud of myself or to seek approval, or any such silly nonsense. I did it because he needed a stool and I saw no reason why he shouldn't have one, but he was busy watching his own kids (he had four) and it made sense that I was the one to do it because he was going to stand in 96 degree weather for another two hours serving popcorn and he deserved a place to sit while he was doing it.

However, I still think that motivation, being the reason for action, is the ultimate thing to look at when assessing whether an act if selfish. The motivation can be an expected result or something else. If a person expects a positive result, even a good feeling, than they are being selfish. If they want to give for the sake of giving, they are not. People are perfectly capable of doing the latter and many do it all the time, if in small ways (most of us don't have a lot of spare resources).

If one happens to feel good after such an act, but their primary goal was not something for their benefit, they are not being selfish. This convoluted reasoning of all actions being selfish because there is usually a positive result for a positive action, is silly and distorts the idea of selfishness to meaninglessness.