French parliament rejects gay marriage

[Arcana XV]

French parliament rejects same-sex marriage bill - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

AFP - France's lower house of parliament Tuesday rejected a bill that would have allowed gays to marry.

The house, dominated by the ruling right-wing UMP party, voted by 293 votes to 222 to block the bill, with most left-wing lawmakers backing it and most of the right opposed.

A shame, but ultimately not all that important. France has had civil partnerships (PACS) for years yet very few gays actually make use of them. The overwhelming majority of civil partnerships are between heterosexual couples. If I remember correctly, gay civil partnerships total about 5% of all civil partnerships in France. Gay marriage is just not the major issue for European gays as it seems to be for their US counterparts.

 

[tessaesque]

I don't know the laws in France or Europe specifically, but perhaps the issue is what access a non-wed partner has to the other partners property, health care decisions, and estate. For example, if unwed in France, could one make decisions regarding the health of their ill, unresponsive partner? Would an unwed partner have rights to the estate if their partner dies?

Of course, this is a small part of the issue..

 

[Arcana XV]

I don't know the laws in France or Europe specifically, but perhaps the issue is what access a non-wed partner has to the other partners property, health care decisions, and estate. For example, if unwed in France, could one make decisions regarding the health of their ill, unresponsive partner? Would an unwed partner have rights to the estate if their partner dies?

Of course, this is a small part of the issue..

The PACS gives them pretty much the same legal rights as married couples, other than the right to adopt. But the thing is, European gays are really not all that interested in making their relationships official. I think those who are in a long term one might come to regret that decision some day.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- Gay marriage is just not the major issue for European gays as it seems to be for their US counterparts.

Thankfully the situation in the UK is heading towards a position where marriage will be available and equal for all as will civil partnership. I am actually very surprised to hear that the situation in France is not so good. I did a search and found this article

France: 51 % Oppose Homosexual “Marriage,” 60% Oppose Homosexual Adoption

FRANCE, June 23, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – More than half of France’s adult population is opposed to same sex “marriage,” and almost two thirds don’t support adoption or artificial procreation for homosexual couples, a new poll has revealed.

Angus Reid Global Scan reported today on a survey conducted by TNS-Sofres, published in Le Nouvel Observateur. The poll found that 51 per cent of those questioned were opposed to same-sex “marriage.” 45 per cent said they favoured same-sex “marriage.”

Support for the adoption of children by homosexual couples was even lower. 60 per cent of respondents said they opposed the adoption of children by a homosexual couple of either gender. The number was slightly higher, at 62 per cent opposed, for the adoption of children by a male homosexual couple. 35 per cent were in favour of adoption by a male homosexual couple, and 36 per cent were in favour of homosexual adoption by a couple of either gender.

The recent vote may actually be good news for Sarkozy too if his stance has majority support in the country.

 

[Arcana XV]

Thankfully the situation in the UK is heading towards a position where marriage will be available and equal for all as will civil partnership. I am actually very surprised to hear that the situation in France is not so good. I did a search and found this article



The recent vote may actually be good news for Sarkozy too if his stance has majority support in the country.

While I doubt the figure on homosexual adoption has changed much, it seems that more people support gay marriage than they did when the poll in your article was conducted. France 24 reports support at almost 60% now.

Same-sex marriage reveals cracks in Sarkozy party - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

Supporting gay marriage has become a relatively safe bet for opposition candidates. According to surveys published by French pollsters TNS Sofres and BVA this year, between 58 and 59 percent of French people support allowing same-sex couples to marry.

But honestly, I don't know why they bother given the extremely small number of gays who are not the least bit interested in getting married or getting a civil union. From the same link:

Since 1999 France, like Britain and Germany, has legally recognised civil partnerships, known as the “pacs” to the French. Last year France saw 203,882 of these civil unions, but less than five percent of them involved homosexual couples.

I've noticed the same trend in Switzerland too.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

-- But honestly, I don't know why they bother given the extremely small number of gays who are not the least bit interested in getting married or getting a civil union --

Do you think the lack of a right for French or Swiss gay couples to adopt has anything to do with this? I don't know much about the situation beyond this thread as I (lazily) assumed this was yet another area of social policy in which the continentals might be more advanced than us.

 

[Arcana XV]

Do you think the lack of a right for French or Swiss gay couples to adopt has anything to do with this? I don't know much about the situation beyond this thread as I (lazily) assumed this was yet another area of social policy in which the continentals might be more advanced than us.

I don't think so. That's another thing they seem to care little about is having kids. I'm talking from anecdotal experience here, mind you. Most men in the industry I work in are gay and while I do see them strive to find a life partner just like the rest of us, marriage and kids are rarely ever mentioned. I think it might be different for lesbians. Many of them have kids from previous straight relationships or an arrangement with a sperm donor and also, at least here in Switzerland, a homosexual person can actually adopt a child. A couple can't, but an individual person can. I don't understand the logic in this, but it is what it is.

 

[paris]

They didn't go far enough, they shoulda banned heterosexual marriage altogether, it's too much trouble!

 

[Djoop]

They didn't go far enough, they shoulda banned heterosexual marriage altogether, it's too much trouble!

Pfff... romantic

 

[Grant]

French parliament rejects same-sex marriage bill - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

AFP - France's lower house of parliament Tuesday rejected a bill that would have allowed gays to marry.

The house, dominated by the ruling right-wing UMP party, voted by 293 votes to 222 to block the bill, with most left-wing lawmakers backing it and most of the right opposed.

A shame, but ultimately not all that important. France has had civil partnerships (PACS) for years yet very few gays actually make use of them. The overwhelming majority of civil partnerships are between heterosexual couples. If I remember correctly, gay civil partnerships total about 5% of all civil partnerships in France. Gay marriage is just not the major issue for European gays as it seems to be for their US counterparts.

The state has made so many changes to what we once knew as the traditional and serious idea of a marriage between a man and woman that it now makes little difference what the law says.

Quickie marriages, quickie divorces, fathers having no choice in abortion issues, and alimony and palimony laws that don't depend on a lawful marriage, also have undermined the institutions, its traditions and its responsibilities.

And while the French government frets about Gay marriage, there are 200,000 people there involved in polygamous marriages, though that is also illegal .Some profit from wives despite French polygamy ban - WorldWide Religious News

Governments in all the democracies are making themselves irrelevant to this institution and people will continue to find a way around the laws, as perhaps they should in this case, and do whatever they want anyway.

 

[CriticalThought]

The state has made so many changes to what we once knew as the traditional and serious idea of a marriage between a man and woman that it now makes little difference what the law says.

Quickie marriages, quickie divorces, fathers having no choice in abortion issues, and alimony and palimony laws that don't depend on a lawful marriage, also have undermined the institutions, its traditions and its responsibilities.

And while the French government frets about Gay marriage, there are 200,000 people there involved in polygamous marriages, though that is also illegal .Some profit from wives despite French polygamy ban - WorldWide Religious News

Governments in all the democracies are making themselves irrelevant to this institution and people will continue to find a way around the laws, as perhaps they should in this case, and do whatever they want anyway.

There is an estimated 80,000 polygamists in the United States, most of them in Utah. That is why I love it when people cite the polygamy argument when it comes to same sex marriage being legalized. Really...because Utah is the liberal beacon of the United States.

 

[Grant]

There is an estimated 80,000 polygamists in the United States, most of them in Utah. That is why I love it when people cite the polygamy argument when it comes to same sex marriage being legalized. Really...because Utah is the liberal beacon of the United States.

No matter what the subject, and though this area is about Europe, the United States just has to be mentioned. How desperately juvenile this habit is.

Yes there is polygamy in the United States, and in Canada as well, and I feel that these people should be free to enjoy whatever lifestyle suits them.That is barring threats, violence, underage children and so on. The same holds true for gay marriage.

The traditions of marriage have long been lost through government meddling and it's time to keep records only as to who is married to whom, the children born of such a union, and any decision regarding separation or divorce.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

The PACS gives them pretty much the same legal rights as married couples, other than the right to adopt. But the thing is, European gays are really not all that interested in making their relationships official. I think those who are in a long term one might come to regret that decision some day.

In general, marriage rates are lower in Europe than they are in the US, though. So I suppose this just makes sense.

 

[Arcana XV]

The state has made so many changes to what we once knew as the traditional and serious idea of a marriage between a man and woman that it now makes little difference what the law says.

Quickie marriages, quickie divorces, fathers having no choice in abortion issues, and alimony and palimony laws that don't depend on a lawful marriage, also have undermined the institutions, its traditions and its responsibilities.

And while the French government frets about Gay marriage, there are 200,000 people there involved in polygamous marriages, though that is also illegal .Some profit from wives despite French polygamy ban - WorldWide Religious News

Governments in all the democracies are making themselves irrelevant to this institution and people will continue to find a way around the laws, as perhaps they should in this case, and do whatever they want anyway.

I think ideally government should stay out of marriage/civil partnerships. Whatever the relationship might be, gay, straight, poly or monogamous should be none of the government's business, nor should government place any restrictions on which consenting adults are or are not allowed to "marry" or what type of contract lays out the mutually agreed terms of their relationship. The only government intrusion I'm willing to tolerate is to make sure that the children's well-being is protected in case of separation/divorce.

 

[American]

French parliament rejects same-sex marriage bill - FRANCE - FRANCE 24

AFP - France's lower house of parliament Tuesday rejected a bill that would have allowed gays to marry.

The house, dominated by the ruling right-wing UMP party, voted by 293 votes to 222 to block the bill, with most left-wing lawmakers backing it and most of the right opposed.

A shame, but ultimately not all that important. France has had civil partnerships (PACS) for years yet very few gays actually make use of them. The overwhelming majority of civil partnerships are between heterosexual couples. If I remember correctly, gay civil partnerships total about 5% of all civil partnerships in France. Gay marriage is just not the major issue for European gays as it seems to be for their US counterparts.

The pansies of Europe rejecting gay marriage....quite astounding.

 

[Djoop]

The pansies of Europe rejecting gay marriage....quite astounding.

Do you support gay marriage, liberal?

 

[American]

Do you support gay marriage, liberal?

That doesn't matter, we're talking about France. Please stay on topic.

 

[PeteEU]

I think ideally government should stay out of marriage/civil partnerships. Whatever the relationship might be, gay, straight, poly or monogamous should be none of the government's business, nor should government place any restrictions on which consenting adults are or are not allowed to "marry" or what type of contract lays out the mutually agreed terms of their relationship. The only government intrusion I'm willing to tolerate is to make sure that the children's well-being is protected in case of separation/divorce.

Will not happen any time soon. The problem is that even in secular France, the religious class still has some hold on people, and that is where the whole "marriage" crap comes from. The institution of marriage is an ancient form of slavery of one the sexes, that has over the centuries warped into being almost "equal" form of partnership. But in reality, marriage is still the ownership of a woman by a man, and the legal issues that come with that. And the various religions will do anything to protect the idea of marriage being only a man and a woman, but also that it has some sort of legal meaning... aka taxes and so on so that the institution of marriage does not die out.

Now those pushing this ancient institution to this day is of course the conservative right, who are in full sync with the various religions on the matter. You have in the Uk, the Conservative party wanting to promote marriage and discourage "living together" by putting in place laws that benefit people who get married and not those that choose not too. They use words like their American counterparts and that of the Church... a true family with a married couple is best for the children bs.

In the end it is nothing but an attempt by the Church/other religions to control women if you ask me. The woman is by law a secondary party in a marriage even legally in many cases. There is no "equal" in marriage in most countries. It has gotten better of course.. countries now accept both legally but also morally that the woman does not take the last name of the husband, but just 20+ years ago that was a big no no in most places. Hell even in some countries it is damn hard for the woman to get a divorce, but easy for the man.. and all this is based on religious dogma stretching back 1000s of years.

In countries with progressive (both right and left wing) parties over the last 40 years, the institution of marriage has been turned into a contract between a man and a woman. Hell now days you dont even need to get married in a church.. just go to the town hall and even in some countries getting married in a Church is not legally binding.. you have to go to the town hall to make it legal.

But in all cases, the idea of marriage has its benefits... tax breaks, access to certain laws on ownership and so on and so on.. laws that in many countries are not accessible to a couple who have lived together for 50 years but did not marry... and that is the problem with marriage today. When a couple who have been together for decades have one get sick, then in many countries the partner is not allowed in to visit the sick partner because they are not "family".

So.. screw marriage in law. If a couple wants to get married, then go for it, but you should not get any legal advantage what so ever over the persons who dont want to get married.