Allowing women to wear Burkas doesn't support the system you're talking about.
If you force all women to shed these garments, then the women who wear them because they are forced to will be forced to remain in their homes. They will not have any meaningful interaction with their neighbors, or anybody else who might have any interest whatsoever in their well-being.
Does that sound like the way to address "the system?"
I have addressed your point the same way that you have addressed mine, and now you declare it as the incapability to address a point.
How pathetic, really, I feel sorry for your astonishingly weak argument skills. :shrug:
IIndeed, a very different statement than "you take away people's freedom".
I am willing to allow the minor violation of a woman's freedom in order to ensure the safety of many other women, just like her.
Are you suggesting that the women living in Islamic communities are capable of combating this oppression?
Because it doesn't seem to be so, seeing that thousands of them die due to honor killings every year.
Since it is not related to my argument and I do not argue for or against the damage that Burqa-wearing women do to their surroundings, I have no opinion on the issue as to present time.
Consider me neutral if you must.
Sure - just like liberating our women from wearing tops. Let's free them from the religious oppression of covering their boobies! That will solve everything.
Me too. You're a tyrant, I believe in freedom.
Seriously, you do realize that it's possible to have a compromise, don't you? Think about it.
Do you honestly know so little about the practice or the social dynamics involved?
The muslim women involved are NOT, let me repeat NOT living in France society wise. They are living in ghettos in isolated sub communites where they have almost no exposure to Freance.
Those Muslim women who ARE integrated or who DO want to be part of France don't want the Burqa.
How is the support of the most very extreme elements within Islam considered a "compromise"?
The "compromise" here is to support modern, moderate Muslims in their fight against the backwards elements within their society.
You said:So what?
Whatever the merits of my comment about mocking and ridiculing freaks in burkas, I never said wearing full body sheets should be outlawed so your comments are incoherent relative my posts. You make no sense.I hope your distorted view of the world comes nowhere near being codified on the law books.
I'm no more interested in seeing your view become a matter of law simply because you say it should never be implemented in a free society.
You said:
Whatever the merits of my comment about mocking and ridiculing freaks in burkas, I never said wearing full body sheets should be outlawed so your comments are incoherent relative my posts. You make no sense.
You didn't address my point, you've simply claimed that I'm wrong without facts or anything to support your argument, and has done that in a most-infantile way.Actually, you didn't address my point at all, whereas I did address yours by showing you where you were wrong, but by all means feel free to play another round of "I know you are but what am I" by yourself. :lol:
Again, how so?As I tried to explain to Gardner, all you're ensuring is that the women who were being forced to wear Burkas will be isolated.
Proof? Evidence?Lots of women die in honor killings every year that have nothing to do with Islam.
There have been honor killing in France and in everywhere else on this planet with a similar/bigger amount of Muslims. (5 million+)That said, I haven't heard of a rash of honor killings in France, where this law is being discussed. Have there been, or were you throwing that out there because a red herring is the best you've got?
If you would bother reading my post and arguments before commenting on them, as an automatic search for people to argue with, you would know what my arguments are and hence be able to respond accordingly.Since you can't or won't argue that women in Burkas harm others by wearing a Burka, then how can you justify forcefully stripping them of their freedom to wear one? Isn't the only legitimate argument for stripping an adult of their liberty that they pose a threat to other people?
Actually I make plenty of sense. I was addressing the bolded portion of the above, which should've been clear since I, you know, QUOTED it when I said what I said.
If you can't follow that, it's really not my fault.
That's not the compromise I'm thinking of.
You really think going around making laws like this is going to help that? Really?
By leveling the playing field, you are taking away one excuse for attacking them. It won't end the attacks, certainly, but it will take away one of the superficial reasons for doing so supported by the wider community.
Would you care to give your own proposal as to how to combat the situation?I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the banning of niqabs and burqas will eventually alter the perception some Muslim men have of women? It won't. The women will just swap their burqas for hijabs and floor length dresses and the abuse will continue. Will we then ban hijabs and long dresses too? What if the abuse STILL continues? When do we finally go after the real problem?
So far you have yet to write even one word to indicate you could give a rat's ass about the plight of Muslim women at all much less come up with anything to help them.
So d@mn them to live lives as chattel, subject to the demands of their owners. After all, they are just Muslims, right?
You didn't address my point, you've simply claimed that I'm wrong without facts or anything to support your argument, and has done that in a most-infantile way.
I have no time to waste on your ilk. Write that down please.
Again, how so?
Are you able to explain your positions, or are you only able to make statements that depend entirely on your belief?
Proof? Evidence?
There have been honor killing in France and in everywhere else on this planet with a similar/bigger amount of Muslims. (5 million+)
If you would bother reading my post and arguments before commenting on them, as an automatic search for people to argue with, you would know what my arguments are and hence be able to respond accordingly.
Since you don't, I'll advise you to stop wasting my goddamned time.
Would you care to give your own proposal as to how to combat the situation?
While far from being simple logic, this is an unsupported claim.This is simple logic. Women who are being forced to wear Burkas when they go out in public will not be allowed out in public when the Burka is banned.
You've given an article that supports my point that honor killings are identified with Islam.
Google is your friend, but I'll give you a head start: Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"I believe the words I used were, a rash of, in other words, a trend of or a wave of or a lot of. Can you cite a source that shows at honor killing in France is the rule rather than an aberration?
I gave you a reference to my arguments, this is pure trolling and is against the forum's rules.In other words, you can't address the point. Noted.
No, criminals are not always caught, frequently because victims CHOOSE not to press charges or help the police. Yes. CHOOSE.
Women aren't always willing to put their family in jail? Willing implies choice, does it not? That is their CHOICE.
A woman who has a multitude of resources to get out of an abusive relationship but yet keeps going back and going back makes the CHOICE to do so. Yes. The choice.
It is their choice if they choose to remain there. It is their choice if they don't take advantage of the numerous opportunities (namely, the ****ing police) to get out of an abusive relationship. When ****ing cop comes to the door and the woman remains silent, that is HER CHOICE. I agree, it is sickening that so many women - Muslim and non-Muslim - willingly choose to remain in abusive situations when there are countless people ready, willing, and able to get them and keep them safe. Yes, it IS sickening.
If they are being kept under lock and key, then that's a different matter. But then, banning the burqa isn't going to do jack **** to help them because the least of their worries is what piece of cloth is on their bodies.
Yeah sure. Women who drive past shelters and police stations and instead head right back into the arms of the very person abusing them doesn't happen, right? Like I said, if someone is being kept under lock and key where they are unable to speak to or see another person, then of course it's not their choice. But, if they are out on the street, walking past cops, and thousands of other people, and they head right on back to the abuse, then yes... it IS their choice. In the western world.
You're right rivrrat. These women are making a choice. They are choosing to wear the burqa rather than get beaten, raped, and possibly killed, plus almost certainly outcasted.
Please stop playing games with facts.
.
The fact that you would consider facts as anathema to your argumentation says much.
Huh? Try making sense.
The fact is that some women freely and intelligently choose to wear the thing.
(I'm back from that Muslim wedding by the way. They whipped the bride and forced her to lick the groom's feet while covered in a bedsheet. Great stuff. :roll: )
I've discussed that with Gardener earlier in the thread and agreed with his views on how else to tackle problem suburbs in France.
I'd also like to point out one thing that may help you understand why I think banning these garments will have no effect on the level of violence in France. The dramatic rise in violence, gang rapes and murders committed against women in French suburbs is a relatively recent phenomena. The generation of women being targetted is young. Their mothers never went through this. Women wearing hijabs was a rarity in France up to the late 80s, early 90s. All of a sudden, some 15 to 20 years ago, young Muslim men in the poor suburbs started systematically attacking and/or raping young girls who they considered not "pious" enough. This is the reason many girls started to wear the hijab, to protect themselves from these attacks.
You see, the problem started at a time when French Muslim women were NOT wearing these clothes. They were being raised in a country that taught them they were men's equals in every respect. They behaved and dressed exactly the same as the native French women. Until, seemingly out of the blue, the abuse started. When hardly anyone was wearing Islamic dress anywhere in the country and practially no one was expected to. Clothes are not the problem. No matter what they wear, if the root of the problem is not addressed, these girls will continue to be abused by out of control, unemployed, radicalized young men.
While far from being simple logic, this is an unsupported claim.
I honestly do not believe that the Islamic communities would lock up their women.
Someone needs to do the shopping, right?
You are correct and I will never emphasise enough that the problem with the immigrant community is France is S.O.C.I.A.L and NOT religious.
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