The "God gave us Free will" argument goes like this. Whenever something bad happens, like when a mean man murders a child or some idiot texting-driver slams into a row of cyclists, and one of us skeptics points out that a truly just god would never allow such a thing to happen, the true believers say, "God gave us free will." Of course, in their justifications, they totally ignore the will of that molested child who was murdered or those cyclists minding their own business who were slammed in the rear as they pedaled along. Often, the true believer will say what happened to them was "God's Will."
What on Earth?
So which is it. Do we have free will or are we all stuck on an endless treadmill doing God's will?
The "God gave us Free will" argument goes like this. Whenever something bad happens, like when a mean man murders a child or some idiot texting-driver slams into a row of cyclists, and one of us skeptics points out that a truly just god would never allow such a thing to happen, the true believers say, "God gave us free will." Of course, in their justifications, they totally ignore the will of that molested child who was murdered or those cyclists minding their own business who were slammed in the rear as they pedaled along. Often, the true believer will say what happened to them was "God's Will."
What on Earth?
So which is it. Do we have free will or are we all stuck on an endless treadmill doing God's will?
Maybe it's gods will that you have free will so both terms apply simultaneously.
The "God gave us Free will" argument goes like this. Whenever something bad happens, like when a mean man murders a child or some idiot texting-driver slams into a row of cyclists, and one of us skeptics points out that a truly just god would never allow such a thing to happen, the true believers say, "God gave us free will." Of course, in their justifications, they totally ignore the will of that molested child who was murdered or those cyclists minding their own business who were slammed in the rear as they pedaled along. Often, the true believer will say what happened to them was "God's Will."
What on Earth?
So which is it. Do we have free will or are we all stuck on an endless treadmill doing God's will?
Free will cannot exist with an all-knowing omniscient being. If we cannot change what God knows, we have no free will, and since God is often put forth to be all knowing, we therefore cannot change our lives.
The point of the thread is to ascertain where God's will ends and Free Will begins. At some point, the two are in conflict because not every act of freely made by man pleases God.I don't know of anyone who is a proponent of free will who also thinks that freedom of the will includes freedom to do literally anything. I have free will, but I'm not free to, say, weigh ten thousand tons or see electrons without the aid of technology, or so on. Similarly, if I'm walking outside and struck by lightning, it's not as if I don't have free will just because I didn't want to be struck. So, I'm not sure what the point of the OP is.
I don't agree with the "God's will" camp. Is it God's will that a baby be born with cancer? That from the time he's born until the day he dies he's getting chemotherapy and living a miserable existence? I can't believe that. If there is something more, then I don't think God's the conductor. He gave us life, didn't he? (If you believe that.) Isn't that enough? I cringe when I hear a parent who's lost a child say, "I guess God needed another angel." It makes me so damned sad.
Two points Maggie, first of all, do you believe that most wisdom comes through pain and hardship. The "Greatest Generation" lived through the Great Depression and WW2. Some of the best people I've ever known have had extremely hard lives, and some of the shallowest have had the easiest, which is to say that I think pain and suffering can lead to good things.
Secondly, a person who believes in Heaven should be relieved when a suffering friend or relative dies. If a person really, really believes in Heaven, I would assume they would be pleased when a friend or relative dies under any circumstances other than taking their own life.
But, then that would mean God is not actively involved anymore, if he ever really was at all. Which again, brings up a point.
If he gave us free will, why does he punish those who refuse to accept Christ? It seems like, he's offering free will with one hand and whacking us for exercising it with the other.
I agree with the points you've made here. Your second one is a little complicated. It's been my experience that some of the most religious people I've known have been the most afraid of death.
I don't, but certain Christian groups argue--quite forcibly--that those who do not accept Christ cannot ascend to heaven. No Christ, go directly to Hell.Why do you think Christ is a criteria for punishment (or reward)?
Our currently accepted version of "God" is a bit to parent-sounding for my taste. A parent accepts that a child has free will, especially as the child advances in age to become a teen and eventually an adult. Similarly, like God is not pleased when we humans do something outside of the expected norm, a parent freaks when an intelligent child decides not to go to college to become a doctor but chooses instead to do drugs, play guitar and sing with a long haired band.A lot depends on what you consider "god" to be. For example, let's take the explosive force that "created the universe" which is popularly called "The Big Bang". That force could well be considered god because we exist due to that original power. But to assume that force taks a personal interest in upgraded monkeys on a minor planet in a minor galaxy is either sheer arrogance or marketing. I think it's marketing and that "god" could care less about your "free will".
Not true. Because a thing knows what actions a person will take does not mean that the thing is the author of those actions. For an eternal being there is no present, no past and no future. Everthing is an instantaneous whole. Think of it as a movie you have already seen. You know how the movie ends, but you are not the cause of that ending. Your actions are known from an eternal perspective simply because to the eternal being, they have already happened. So there is no clash between God and human free will.Free will cannot exist with an all-knowing omniscient being. If we cannot change what God knows, we have no free will, and since God is often put forth to be all knowing, we therefore cannot change our lives.
I don't, but certain Christian groups argue--quite forcibly--that those who do not accept Christ cannot ascend to heaven. No Christ, go directly to Hell.
Our currently accepted version of "God" is a bit to parent-sounding for my taste. A parent accepts that a child has free will, especially as the child advances in age to become a teen and eventually an adult. Similarly, like God is not pleased when we humans do something outside of the expected norm, a parent freaks when an intelligent child decides not to go to college to become a doctor but chooses instead to do drugs, play guitar and sing with a long haired band.
You're making the usual mistake of equating free will with omnipotence.The "God gave us Free will" argument goes like this. Whenever something bad happens, like when a mean man murders a child or some idiot texting-driver slams into a row of cyclists, and one of us skeptics points out that a truly just god would never allow such a thing to happen, the true believers say, "God gave us free will." Of course, in their justifications, they totally ignore the will of that molested child who was murdered or those cyclists minding their own business who were slammed in the rear as they pedaled along. Often, the true believer will say what happened to them was "God's Will."
What on Earth?
So which is it. Do we have free will or are we all stuck on an endless treadmill doing God's will?
You can argue absolutely anything forcibly but you can not alter reality with that force.
All religions, are there are many, consider themselves to be the only correct one. What else should they think?
You're making the usual mistake of equating free will with omnipotence.
We only apply the term 'God's will' to those phenomenon currently beyond human influence. At that point, only the faithful tend not to struggle so much, it being quite sufficient a response.
Because the point may be not the destination, but the road we take to arrive there.If God is simply stuck in the water of a river we humans call space-time, and that nothing is new to him, no random act unknown nor quite random, then what's the point?
If God knows how the movie ends because he made it, then free will becomes muddled. If God didn't make the movie, but he just knows the outcome, then he's not an all-powerful creator.
If he created a universe guided by free will, how can he know the outcome without having decided the outcome? After all, he created it.
calamity said:The point of the thread is to ascertain where God's will ends and Free Will begins. At some point, the two are in conflict because not every act of freely made by man pleases God.
Now, is that god's will? Does free will please God even though what's been done does not? If so, what does that tell us about God?
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