Fox News' Tucker Carlson calls concerns about white supremacy a "hoax"

RedSunRising said:

...So I more or less agree with you to that extent. Lonely people often disassociate from society and its norms, which sometimes leads to violent acts.

We cannot, however, pretend that those acts where victims were selected based on a protected characteristic are the same as random acts of violence. The Aurora movie theater shooter is just a psychopath. Matthew Shepard's murderers are homophobic psychopaths. The El Paso shooter is a racist psychopath. The term "white supremacy" seems to make a lot of people uncomfortable and/or defensive, but a rose by any other name is still a rose.

Just because discrimination is perhaps less organized than it was fifty years ago doesn't mean that it doesn't exist anymore. Indeed, 22 people were killed in just this last incident because the murderer doesn't like Mexicans. Whether or not one thinks the media have sensationalized the event really doesn't matter. The fact remains that a white supremacist went on a killing spree determined to end lives based on a characteristic of his unknown victims. So for an influential personality like Tucker Carlson to persuade his audience that discrimination, namely white supremacy, is a lie conjured by fake news is irresponsible, dangerous, dishonest, and more than a little delusional.

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Except your not really addressing the arguments made.

None are pretending that a shooters animosity towards the public, or specific behaviors, or people or group characteristics within the public or private parties, isn't targeted - be they a "protected" status or not. Moreover, "roses" not withstanding, I think you've made a fundamental error. Psychopathology is not a rose by any other name, its a medical condition that exists independent of every religion, race, ideology, or sex...just as social alienation also transcends belief systems. In other words, the belief systems of the irrational are but a symptom of either extreme collective/cultural enculturation, mental (or organic) illness and/or social alienation.

As Eric Hoffer insightfully pointed out in his best work "The True Believer" at the root of the fanatic is a failure - someone who by their own perceptions did not succeed at what they valued. As such it is no surprise that in Nazi Germany it was not unheard of true believers to switch sides, from communist to Nazi (and vice versa) rather than stop in the middle. The belief itself was less important than the ego validation offered by being a part of some great cause or principle.

In that light, the concern over white supremacy is not only overblown as a symptom, it is a red herring. In fact, if you look at the last two years of mass killings in the US (2017 and 2018) how many were probably or certainty motivated by white supremacy...even nominally? One?

Because the list is too long to research, I looked at those incidents wherein 7 or more were killed. An ex-Marine college dropout in Long Beach shooting up a bar, Nicholas Cruz and Stoneman Douglas, Dimitrios Pagourtizis a high school student in Santa Fe Texas, the Scottsdale Spree, the Sutherland Church Shootings, the Las Vegas Shootings, the Synagoge Shootings, and the family killings of an ex-wife and their relations.

Of those eight, only one was tied to a so-called white supremist whose particular motivation was to kill Jews. The other seven were done for various reasons, some due to mental illness, some because of hate of Christians, and almost all due to individuals who were mentally unstable, alienated, and/or failures.

In other words, the "white supremacy" paradigm is an appealing narrative far more than a reality for the vast majority of mass shootings.

maxparrish said:

Except your not really addressing the arguments made.

None are pretending that a shooters animosity towards the public, or specific behaviors, or people or group characteristics within the public or private parties, isn't targeted - be they a "protected" status or not. Moreover, "roses" not withstanding, I think you've made a fundamental error. Psychopathology is not a rose by any other name, its a medical condition that exists independent of every religion, race, ideology, or sex...just as social alienation also transcends belief systems. In other words, the belief systems of the irrational are but a symptom of either extreme collective/cultural enculturation, mental (or organic) illness and/or social alienation.

As Eric Hoffer insightfully pointed out in his best work "The True Believer" at the root of the fanatic is a failure - someone who by their own perceptions did not succeed at what they valued. As such it is no surprise that in Nazi Germany it was not unheard of true believers to switch sides, from communist to Nazi (and vice versa) rather than stop in the middle. The belief itself was less important than the ego validation offered by being a part of some great cause or principle.

In that light, the concern over white supremacy is not only overblown as a symptom, it is a red herring. In fact, if you look at the last two years of mass killings in the US (2017 and 2018) how many were probably or certainty motivated by white supremacy...even nominally? One?

Because the list is too long to research, I looked at those incidents wherein 7 or more were killed. An ex-Marine college dropout in Long Beach shooting up a bar, Nicholas Cruz and Stoneman Douglas, Dimitrios Pagourtizis a high school student in Santa Fe Texas, the Scottsdale Spree, the Sutherland Church Shootings, the Las Vegas Shootings, the Synagoge Shootings, and the family killings of an ex-wife and their relations.

Of those eight, only one was tied to a so-called white supremist whose particular motivation was to kill Jews. The other seven were done for various reasons, some due to mental illness, some because of hate of Christians, and almost all due to individuals who were mentally unstable, alienated, and/or failures.

In other words, the "white supremacy" paradigm is an appealing narrative far more than a reality for the vast majority of mass shootings.

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Perhaps you know something I don't but I'll leave the psychoanalysis and diagnoses of psychopathology to medical professionals who actually evaluate the subject. Frankly, it's just the means du jour of minimizing and rationalizing incidents of mass violence. Is there a mental health component to such events? Certainly sometimes and probably most times, but armchair speculation of a person's mental fitness is hardly persuasive.

What reasonable people can agree on is that in addition to likely mental health components, these massacres sometimes involve discrimination. When a person bombs a synagogue or castrates a gay man, it is uncontroversial and even expected to illuminate the anti-Semitic and homophobic, respectively, aspects of the crimes. So all this hand wringing over identifying a racist mass murder with its implications to white supremacy is misplaced at best.

My point has been unchanged throughout this thread and remains. Discrimination, as that term relates to hate crime statutes and protected classes, be it on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, sex, race, religion, and so on, as the selective determinant for crime victims is pervasive and needs to be acknowledged by society, not outrightly denied. We can talk about all the various causes of mass violence, but if the list doesn't include discrimination, even white supremacy no matter how much that term triggers some people, then the conversation is neither complete nor fully honest from its beginning.

Fletch said:

:2bigcry: Aww. You poor thing. Did Tucker say something you dont like? What happened to all your whining about freedom of the press? Now you want it silenced. Always nice when the real fascists reveal themselves.

Oh, and by the way, there is no white supremacist movement in this country. Thats just you being duped by the left wing media. Again.

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Oh really?

So you are denying Neo Nazis exist? Neo Confederates? The Klan?

All of those folks are what, figments of our imagination?

RedSunRising said:

Perhaps you know something I don't but I'll leave the psychoanalysis and diagnoses of psychopathology to medical professionals who actually evaluate the subject. Frankly, it's just the means du jour of minimizing and rationalizing incidents of mass violence. Is there a mental health component to such events? Certainly sometimes and probably most times, but armchair speculation of a person's mental fitness is hardly persuasive.

What reasonable people can agree on is that in addition to likely mental health components, ...

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What "reasonable people can agree on" is that you spent a lot of time flip flopping. First in (a prior post) your own armchair diagnosis of the criminals of Aurora, the Sheppard's incident, and El Paso as the acts of psychopaths, but then in this post handwaving away factors of psychopathology as best left to professionals, then doing another 180 in quickly admitting that psychopathology actually is an underlying factor most times.

The only minimization is play is your rather strange dodging and begrudging admission of the central point: mental health issues are the probable "most times" underlying factor of most mass murdering of innocents. "In addition" to other factors or not, that is not rationalizing, its a recognition of a explanatory factor that is far broader, fundamental, and accurate than the rare or imagined occasional "addition" of white supremacy ideology.

...My point has been unchanged throughout this thread and remains. Discrimination, as that term relates to hate crime statutes and protected classes, be it on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, sex, race, religion, and so on, as the selective determinant for crime victims is pervasive and needs to be acknowledged by society, not outrightly denied. We can talk about all the various causes of mass violence, but if the list doesn't include discrimination, even white supremacy no matter how much that term triggers some people, then the conversation is neither complete nor fully honest from its beginning.

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And consistent with that, your points were also that Carlson denied that homophobia and racism exist in the US and the world - which, by the way, he didn't.

And expanding on my prior point, I believe that group phobic motives to be largely irrelevant to most mass shootings as well as the causes of criminal activity. The "problem" of racism, sexism, etc. is the problem of social taboos that have become so irrationally profane as to cause more social harm through our moralistic crusading, as well generating as backlash prejudices, than the so-called problem itself would currently generate. So much so that as tiny as hate crimes are, it is probably the only category of crime that is routinely "faked" - itself an indicator of how ridiculous the taboos have become.

Yes, there are those that will hate Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., but as factor in almost all real crime it is microscopic - as microscopic as non-existent white supremacy movements.

In that, Carlson is spot on.

maxparrish said:

What "reasonable people can agree on" is that you spent a lot of time flip flopping. First in (a prior post) your own armchair diagnosis of the criminals of Aurora, the Sheppard's incident, and El Paso as the acts of psychopaths, but then in this post handwaving away factors of psychopathology as best left to professionals, then doing another 180 in quickly admitting that psychopathology actually is an underlying factor most times.

The only minimization is play is your rather strange dodging and begrudging admission of the central point: mental health issues are the probable "most times" underlying factor of most mass murdering of innocents. "In addition" to other factors or not, that is not rationalizing, its a recognition of a explanatory factor that is far broader, fundamental, and accurate than the rare or imagined occasional "addition" of white supremacy ideology.



And consistent with that, your points were also that Carlson denied that homophobia and racism exist in the US and the world - which, by the way, he didn't.

And expanding on my prior point, I believe that group phobic motives to be largely irrelevant to most mass shootings as well as the causes of criminal activity. The "problem" of racism, sexism, etc. is the problem of social taboos that have become so irrationally profane as to cause more social harm through our moralistic crusading, as well generating as backlash prejudices, than the so-called problem itself would currently generate. So much so that as tiny as hate crimes are, it is probably the only category of crime that is routinely "faked" - itself an indicator of how ridiculous the taboos have become.

Yes, there are those that will hate Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., but as factor in almost all real crime it is microscopic - as microscopic as non-existent white supremacy movements.

In that, Carlson is spot on.

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I'll give it another go. I tried to meet you halfway by conceding, with as much firsthand knowledge as you have, that mental health could have played roles in the Aurora, Shepard, and El Paso cases. That's a lot more intellectually honest than you trying to dismiss the role of discrimination in any/all of them, which by the way, are matters of known fact and not of speculation, in relation to Shepard and El Paso at a minimum. "Dodging" and "begrudging" are not words I would use to characterize my posts, but we don't know each other; and you're entitled to interpret the written opinions of a stranger any way you want.

You keep trying to reduce these complex issues to "a" or "the" factor, i.e., mental health. I'm guessing you know well enough to know that a single factor can't fully explain mass violence, yet you seem strangely determined to fit that square peg into that round hole. The El Paso shooter is a white supremacist. Why you are so desperate to bury that fact in the sand is not something you have adequately described.

Carlson said that white supremacy is not a problem in the US. If that ridiculous assertion is something you want to keep trying to defend, please be my guest. Whatever deficiencies you find in my presentation don't change the reality that Carlson is wrong and is intentionally misleading his audience, which is irresponsible.

NeverTrump said:

Tucker Carlson fails to mention that almost all of the mass shooters since 9/11 had white supremacist or anti-women motives. Almost all of the shooters have gunned down multiple double digit people due to the hate, and that number of people who died in mass shooting since 9/11 are more than the number of people who died on 9/11.

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That's because Carlson isn't an idiot, and what you said is complete nonsense, on several levels.

And before you tell me what I think, no, I'm not a Carlson fan.

SCrider said:

you seriously believe this?
And do the people liking your post believe this also?

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How many 'white nationalists' do you think there are in this country?

Mr Person said:

Christ is that ever stupid. The lengths you'll go to just to get a reaction. ....

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:2bigcry: Aww. You poor thing. Did I say something you didnt like? Tell you what, if you think there is some massive wave of white nationalism in this country, back it up with some numbers; you know, evidence. Or havent they taught you that word in class yet?

Tigerace117 said:

Oh really?

So you are denying Neo Nazis exist? Neo Confederates? The Klan?

All of those folks are what, figments of our imagination?

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They are all the same people. According to the SPLC there are between 5000-6000 members of the Klan in this country. Thats about 100...per state. BFD. Remember that massive march the Nazis had in DC a year or so ago? You know, the one that drew 25 people. Or the one they had in Arkansas that drew 9. Yeah they are a big deal...in the minds of the left. BUt that is only because the minds of the left are empty

Fletch said:

They are all the same people. According to the SPLC there are between 5000-6000 members of the Klan in this country. Thats about 100...per state. BFD. Remember that massive march the Nazis had in DC a year or so ago? You know, the one that drew 25 people. Or the one they had in Arkansas that drew 9. Yeah they are a big deal...in the minds of the left. BUt that is only because the minds of the left are empty

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I would find any numbers from the SPLC highly suspect at this point. With how broadly they designate who is a hate group, white nationalist, extremist etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if those numbers were actually smaller than what's being reported.

NeverTrump said:

Tucker Carlson fails to mention that almost all of the mass shooters since 9/11 had white supremacist or anti-women motives. Almost all of the shooters have gunned down multiple double digit people due to the hate, and that number of people who died in mass shooting since 9/11 are more than the number of people who died on 9/11. Boycott Tucker Carlson!



Fox News' Tucker Carlson calls concerns about white supremacy a "hoax": "It's actually not a real problem in America"

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Carlson did himself no favors with that ignorant comment.

This person is getting silly, isn't he? Today's Left isn't even hiding who they are anymore. So to answer a question because I think Tucker could have worded it better. Does white supremacy exist? Yes. Does it, today, have any real power? No. Does ANY (fill in the skin color/ethnicity) supremacy exist? Yes. Is there anywhere in the world where that kind of supremacy exists that has real power? Yes. Where? South Africa. The government over there is taking away homes from white people. Sounds pretty racist to me because the people controlling the government is dominantly black. During the Civil War times, the South, ran by white Democrats, had black slaves and didn't want to give them up. That was white supremacy and the Democrat party, who founded the KKK, is the ONLY group who has that on their record. Hitler had many Jews killed. Not only was he an anti-Semite, but was also a (National) socialist. What all these oppressive people have in common is they're ALL on the Left.

The only real difference the United States, as a whole, is NOT ran by white supremacy. The US had waged in war against white supremacy (at least that was one reason), once against a political party in our country, then against the National Socialists in WWII. The US has passed Civil Rights laws so everyone is treated equally. The only people that are on record of voting against it were Democrats. This guy rambling and going nuts because I said white supremacy exists on the Left, and given actual history and modern times this is true. They own it in the US. You might have some nut case on the Right or Middle that will come along and threaten something, but how often do you hear about it? Extremely little to none, but as soon as the media hears that someone voted for a Republican, it gets ALL sorts of attention. But when you get someone like Ralph Northam (who wanted to kill babies outside the womb) a white male Leftist Democrat who ADMITTED that he did black face and didn't shake his opponents hand (who was black) during an election when the man extended his hand to him, silence. Sure there were stories about him doing black face, but it was as soon as he admitted it, the story just seemed to have vanished. It's as if the Left is protecting their own from exploitation, from his own white supremacy tendencies.

They may not come up as often now, but the only time a racist or white supremacist (or whatever supremacy) takes a position of power in this country, they're Leftist Democrats. As far as white supremacy having a powerful grip on the country, it's a resounding no. So it IS a hoax to believe that white supremacists run the country. However, just go through Leftist history and you'll see how they pushed through their white supremacist influence.

Fletch said:

They are all the same people. According to the SPLC there are between 5000-6000 members of the Klan in this country. Thats about 100...per state. BFD. Remember that massive march the Nazis had in DC a year or so ago? You know, the one that drew 25 people. Or the one they had in Arkansas that drew 9. Yeah they are a big deal...in the minds of the left. BUt that is only because the minds of the left are empty

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Oh, so if they are all the same people then Donald Trump's claims that there were "some good people" on the far right "side" at Charlottesville is complete and utter bullcrap.

Because, of course, the other folks there were the Neo Confederates. Not that they are any better than the Neo Nazis, of course, but they are generally more passive when it comes to their virulent racism.

Oh, so if we had a hundred active AQ members or a hundred ISIS members running around in each and every state you'd be fine with that? The idea that domestic terrorism is okay because the number of terrorists in the organization is smaller than what it used to be is bizarre.

Tlrmln said:

That's because Carlson isn't an idiot, and what you said is complete nonsense, on several levels.

And before you tell me what I think, no, I'm not a Carlson fan.

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I kind of am because I think he enjoys his job and because his squinty expression of bemusement/disbelief is funny.

Fletch said:

How many 'white nationalists' do you think there are in this country?

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They're everywhere, Fletch, just waiting for the latest numerological dog whistle.

Tigerace117 said:

Oh, so if they are all the same people then Donald Trump's claims that there were "some good people" on the far right "side" at Charlottesville is complete and utter bullcrap.

Because, of course, the other folks there were the Neo Confederates. Not that they are any better than the Neo Nazis, of course, but they are generally more passive when it comes to their virulent racism.

Oh, so if we had a hundred active AQ members or a hundred ISIS members running around in each and every state you'd be fine with that? The idea that domestic terrorism is okay because the number of terrorists in the organization is smaller than what it used to be is bizarre.

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I think it's because the domestic terrorists are white, and there fore no threat to them personally...

Crovax said:

Stand by your idiot

I’ll stand by the words on an American hero

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You took the soldiers side in that argument? Wow.

Fletch said:

there is no white supremacist movement in this country. Thats just you being duped by the left wing media. Again.

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Lol, sure buddy. "Neo-Nazis and the KKK are as real as the tooth fairy..." Are those your alternative facts?

Jay59 said:

Not the two from Saturday.

Do you not see the irony of objecting to someone else's hating? You have hate in your screen name.

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Opposing hate is hate?

Geoist said:

Opposing hate is hate?

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Well sure, that's the last defense of the right at this point. If you oppose racism, you're throwing the race card, and want to make everything about racist, and are therefore...a racist! If Trump promotes hate and disunity, if you oppose him, you are promoting hate and disunity! It's really elegant and destructive and absurd.

Geoist said:

Opposing hate is hate?

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Why do you say that?

Outlook said:

The left simply does not like the truth. Neil DeGrasse Tyson tweeted some facts, but the left wanted nothing to do with it.
Tyson in his tweet said:
In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings.
On average, across any 48 hrs, we also lose...
500 to medical errors
300 to the Flu
250 to suicide
200 to car accidents
40 to homicide via handgun.

He says often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.

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And Tyson is being called out on how poorly thought out his tweet really was.

Let's see, we have regulations and laws on medical malpractice. Every doctor has to go through years and years of schooling.
We have vaccines to fight the flu (but anti-vaxxers, like Trump, would have you believe otherwise).
Suicide is illegal and those who attempt it are hospitalized.
We have driver licenses and have to follow rules of the road or we will be ticketed/arrested.
We are the only developed nation to have mass shootings at the rate we do. No one else comes close. Other developed nations have mentally ill citizens. Other developed nations have violent video games. But other developed nations have far stricter gun laws.

When the going gets tough... the tough go on vacation.

(Looks like Tucker skipped out until the dust settles from this one.)

Outlook said:

He says often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.

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So only liberals are having an 'emotional response' to 'spectacle?'

So what do you call it when conservatives call for violent video games to be banned/heavily regulated or to increase government funding for mental health facilities?

Geoist said:

So only liberals are having an 'emotional response' to 'spectacle?' So what do you call it when conservatives call for violent video games to be banned/heavily regulated or to increase government funding for mental health facilities?

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Or when a decent and reasonable, moderate, black man was elected President.