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How much would healthcare costs decline if government had no involvement with healthcare?


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And do you think lowering the incentive for one to become a doctor will help or hurt that shortage?

There's a "shortage" here because we limit the number of residencies, which limits the numbers admitted to med schools, not because there aren't enough people who want to be doctors. We also restrict foreign trained doctors. My local family doc has a pretty excellent foreign trained doctor on staff, but he's billed out as a nurse because he basically has to do another residency in the U.S. (3 years or so) to be qualified as an MD.

Practicing medicine in the U.S. as an international medical graduate | American Medical Association

Point is that "shortage" is very deliberate, and isn't related to the pay.
 
Since you are opposed to the existence of the state, how would you propose to solve this issue in the absence of a state?

The abolition of a state heirarchy does not necessitate the abolition of all social organiation. In theory, economic exchange would work on a union-based system, where certain groups train others & certify them as qualified for those jobs. In practice, it's harder to say. The oldest anarchist commune in history is less than two decades old, and I don't know enough about the medical system in Chiapas Mexico to say how they handle it. What I CAN point to is Cuba, even though it is very much a statist mess. To put it simply, Cuba maintains a state-run medical school system, and provides free education to Cubans who have an interest in medicine, as well as to students from over 100 other countries, America included. Some nations, including Venezuela, offer them raw materials like oil in exchange for educating their children. Standards are not reduced, but access to education is expanded. They also do an impressive amount of medical research.

There's a lot more detail here: Training the World's Doctors : Healthcare in Cuba | The BMJ
 
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There's a "shortage" here because we limit the number of residencies, which limits the numbers admitted to med schools, not because there aren't enough people who want to be doctors. We also restrict foreign trained doctors. My local family doc has a pretty excellent foreign trained doctor on staff, but he's billed out as a nurse because he basically has to do another residency in the U.S. (3 years or so) to be qualified as an MD.

Practicing medicine in the U.S. as an international medical graduate | American Medical Association

Point is that "shortage" is very deliberate, and isn't related to the pay.

This to me is absolutely ridiculous. We should be putting any doctor on an express line into the country, hell pay for the flight and have their citizenship papers ready the moment they come off the plane.
 
You may not know every coverage you will need but let's start with what is required now that is not needed by many.
1. Childbirth coverage. Single men, people past childbearing age, people opting not to have children don't need this.

The actuaries don't price in childbirth for a 60 year old woman in their cost estimates, As to men, true, we don't need coverage, so let's make the women pay all the costs of childbirth... That's fine but the women will pay far higher premiums.

2. Mental health and substance abuse disorder coverage. Pretty obvious, most people don't need this.

Lots of mental illness is later in life. I don't think anyone has ever planned on getting mental illness or addicted.

3. Preventive welfare services. I know how to workout, eat, control my weight. What benefit is this for me?

I don't know what "preventive welfare services" are but if you're talking annual physicals, most insurers would heavily subsidize this with or without ACA because it's how stuff is caught early. You also appear to think you're bullet proof, but as you say in another post, you might not be. You can work out and eat healthy and if your genes are bad, still be at high risk for all kinds of illnesses, like heart disease. If you're not, that's fine, but not everyone is lucky. I was healthy, until I got arthritis, and then my annual HC costs went from $500/year to $60k/yr.

4. Pregnancy, maternity and new born care. Goes along with #1. If you are not planning on children or of childbearing age, this is not needed.
5. Birth control services. Again only women of childbearing age may need this.
6. Breast feeding coverage. Petty obvious no man need this.
7. Abortion services. Again not needed by most.

So you don't want to pay for stuff only women use. OK. Good for you, bad for women. The thousands you save for not paying for child bearing means thousands more for them.

I have no disdain for the poor. In fact, I support many charities that aid the poor. I also know that tough love is most often the best solution. Give the poor a means to help themselves and most will prosper. Handouts rarely do anything but provide a one time relief and dependency.

Using the term "parasites" indicates otherwise.... :roll:
 
This to me is absolutely ridiculous. We should be putting any doctor on an express line into the country, hell pay for the flight and have their citizenship papers ready the moment they come off the plane.

Unfortunately, the powers that be have every incentive to keep American healthcare limited, both in price and in availability. The starting premise of American medicine is not, and has never been to provide a service to those in need.
 
It would dramatically increase.

Anybody that advocates for free market health care is ignoring the fact that health care is a need. Anybody that wasn't asleep during Econ in high school should remember the concept of needs and wants.

You need food, water, shelter from the elements, and adequate health care to survive.

If the free market takes over without any governmental involvement, doctors can gouge and charge high enough amounts to ensure you will pay but not die. That's not America. If you think it is, you're wrong.
 
How much of our national healthcare bill could be eliminated if government got out of healthcare (both as a provider and as a regulator) and the free market was allowed to prevail?

Why was "(both as a provider and as a regulator)" not shown in the poll question?
Government has a proper function in the regulation of healthcare safety within the free market. As a provider, I see none with the exception of providing care for those who suffer as a result of government activity, such as our military service men and women and those whose function is to protect the people such as our police, fire fighters, etc.
 
Perhaps so. But the question was one regarding cost, not quality. If people want to go to a doctor who charges $1,000.00 for medical care, but who graduated from St. Quack's 2-year Correspondence Medical School versus the doctor who charged $10,000.00 but went to Johns Hopkins, I imagine the healthcare outcomes will be radically different.

Respectfully, that depends entirely what they are going for. Both would likely proscribe the same for a head cold, and refer me to an orthopedic surgeon for a compound fracture to my arm.

Current rules often require full PhD doctors to do tasks many nurses (for example) are fully capable of doing. It may very well be likely that your John Hopkins Graduate is able to focus more of his time on the more complex and difficult health problems that justify his expensive education, while a broader array of less-refined medical providers are able to handle tasks which did not require his full education, but which he was nonetheless previously required to spend his time on.
 
It would dramatically increase.

Anybody that advocates for free market health care is ignoring the fact that health care is a need. Anybody that wasn't asleep during Econ in high school should remember the concept of needs and wants.

You need food, water, shelter from the elements, and adequate health care to survive.

I'm glad you brought up food as an example here, because it's one I commonly bring up myself when the argument gets made that the market is unable to meet needs, and therefore provision of needs should be taken care of by the state.


Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with the history of nationalizing food production?
 
I'm glad you brought up food as an example here, because it's one I commonly bring up myself when the argument gets made that the market is unable to meet needs, and therefore provision of needs should be taken care of by the state.


Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with the history of nationalizing food production?

The difference is food can be grown by anybody with dirt and seeds. THe people who produce food dont have multiple degrees and years of training. I grow food in my backyard.

You can't create chemotherapy drugs. You can't teach yourself to perform open heart surgery on youtube, or afford the equipment to allow you to do so.

My goodness. I cant believe you walked into that one.

While I am not against nationalizing health care, I think in America the only feasible solution is a Swiss-ish system.

Out of curiosity, if you had to pay out of pocket for all health care, and you needed open-heart surgery to live. Would you pay for the good doctor to do it, but it would cost you your entire net worth? Or would you pay Dr. Nick Riveria to do it for $129.99?
 
There is a good reason. The big insurers in your area negotiate contracts with major providers for prices of various services. If you have 100k insureds, the insurer can get a better deal, and charge lower premiums. A new competitor with 10k insureds can't get that deal, so has to charge higher premiums, which means they can't attract as many customers, etc. So the barrier isn't state regulators but negotiating those contracts.



We might call this Medicare!



That works fine for young men, but young women often have babies, which runs the costs up quite a bit, or they just don't get coverage, and young women are often poor which is why they are often covered by Medicaid....

States regulate who gets access to their state market. If insurance companies were free to sell their product across all state lines, there would be competition. That's how ALL markets work. And the rates for catastrophic insurance weren't any higher for women than for men.

I'm all for Medicare for all, so long as the government doesn't subsidize it. That simply drives up costs. Just like it does in higher education.
 
We are self pay - no insurance. It is not rare that what we pay in cash is less than the co-pay others pay. That has literally happened numerous times.

Doctors and medical facilities HATE dealing with the government so much that the vast majority around here refuse to participate in Medicare or ObamaCare. PAPERWORK and battling federal regulators is VERY expensive, they can't know what the government actually will pay them other than much, much sell than they bill - so they radically over-bill - and battle to get any payment for months.

ALL THIS COSTS MONEY. Massive costs of the government over-seers and massive cost to medical professionals and doctors - having NOTHING to do with actually medical care being done and 100% about bureaucratic waste - massive bureaucratic waste.
 
The difference is food can be grown by anybody with dirt and seeds. THe people who produce food dont have multiple degrees and years of training. I grow food in my backyard.

You can't create chemotherapy drugs. You can't teach yourself to perform open heart surgery on youtube, or afford the equipment to allow you to do so.

My goodness. I cant believe you walked into that one.

:) I like how you avoided the question.

But it seems to beg a follow-up: It seems to follow that, if governments are better providers of "needs" than the market, and everyone can just grow food on their own, that countries who nationalized food production will never suffered massive shortages as a result of their decision. Historically speaking, is that the case?

While I am not against nationalizing health care, I think in America the only feasible solution is a Swiss-ish system.

There are parts of the swiss model I find intriguing - I've argued for letting the states experiment with healthcare myself for years. The problem appears to be that states have looked at running healthcare as a government provided service... and discovered that it is unaffordable... and so the response of many is to pretend that this is a condition that will not apply to the Federal Government.

There are also portions of the Swiss system that work not least because... it's being applied in Switzerland, rather than the U.S. As a simple basic question of freedom, I'd be against forcing Americans to purchase anything (one reason why I loathe property taxes).

Out of curiosity, if you had to pay out of pocket for all health care, and you needed open-heart surgery to live. Would you pay for the good doctor to do it, but it would cost you your entire net worth? Or would you pay Dr. Nick Riveria to do it for $129.99?

I dunno. I suppose it would depend on the complexity.

That being said, why do you assume that insurance does not exist in a market, when, in fact, that is not the case?
 
The abolition of a state heirarchy does not necessitate the abolition of all social organiation. In theory, economic exchange would work on a union-based system, where certain groups train others & certify them as qualified for those jobs. In practice, it's harder to say. The oldest anarchist commune in history is less than two decades old, and I don't know enough about the medical system in Chiapas Mexico to say how they handle it. What I CAN point to is Cuba, even though it is very much a statist mess. To put it simply, Cuba maintains a state-run medical school system, and provides free education to Cubans who have an interest in medicine, as well as to students from over 100 other countries, America included. Some nations, including Venezuela, offer them raw materials like oil in exchange for educating their children. Standards are not reduced, but access to education is expanded. They also do an impressive amount of medical research.

There's a lot more detail here: Training the World's Doctors : Healthcare in Cuba | The BMJ
But a state-run medical school system would require a state.
 
How much of our national healthcare bill could be eliminated if government got out of healthcare (both as a provider and as a regulator) and the free market was allowed to prevail?

Clearly the answer is "a lot," not least because the government directly finances 40-odd percent of care and influences other spending in myriad ways. The more interesting and important question is the degree to which removing government involvement to lower spending would be a good thing.

The primary reason for and goal of government involvement has been pretty simple (and successful): vastly increasing access while maintaining quality. For many decades the feds, and to some degree the states, have tilted the playing field toward health care at the expense of other economic sectors, such that vastly more dollars flow there than--presumably--would without that intervention.

Some of the ways are very straightforward: they've taken tax dollars and directly bought care for those wouldn't otherwise be able to get it (e.g., the old, the young, some of the poor). That right there is well over a trillion dollars purposefully re-directed into health care to give tens of millions of people access.

Starting in the '40s, the federal government decided we didn't have enough hospital beds per capita so it spent decades financing the building and expansion of private hospital capacity. Good from the perspective of increasing access, particularly in rural areas: more local hospitals, more availability of care locally, more local jobs. The flip side is that now, over half a century later, we find that perhaps we've overextended ourselves. We've got a fair number of hospitals out there, particularly in rural areas, that don't seem to be economically viable. Closing them saves money but has serious public health and access implications.

The federal government has taken responsibility for financing physician training after med school, in part because the industry doesn't seem particularly interested or capable of financing that itself. But the funding available for that training and the necessity of undergoing it naturally limits the number of new physicians we can produce. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about barriers to entry and certainly licensure and training of health professionals is a big one. But of course there is a public health and quality reason for those barriers. On the other hand, there's great interest today in making greater use of cheaper mid-level health care providers instead of physicians wherever possible.

And of course the feds very famously have used the tax code to privilege dollars spent on health care (either those squirreled away for OOP expenses in an HSA, or those set aside by an employer to directly pay for care) over dollars spent on other goods and services. Paying an employee in health insurance has been more attractive than paying an employee in equivalent wages for 70 years.

But the conceit here is that somehow this is artificial or we didn't want this. That we wish the government hadn't been pumping money into (and encouraging us to pump our money into) building and sustaining the capacity our system has today. But these decisions weren't made in a vacuum. And the suggestion on the table today from some on the left that perhaps we ought to now use the government to pump money out of health care and pare back the level of capacity we enjoy is often met with howls. So it's tough to be sure we really have more health care infrastructure and capacity than we want. Everybody's against health spending, they're just not against any of the things we actually buy with our health dollars.

If we pulled the government out tomorrow and settled on a health system financed by, say, $3-5K a head per year on average directly provided by households, that system looks a hell of a lot different than the one we've got today. Maybe that's the health system people really want: one that's ultra-lean and low-rent. But I sort of doubt it.
 
So maybe the solution is exceptionally high deductibles (like over $40k/yr). Since healthcare bills in excess of $40k are fairly uncommon, rates could be fairly inexpensive. Maybe $100 or $200 a month instead of a thousand or two thousand (last time I checked it was almost $2k/mth for my family of three). If HSAs were expanded to allow people to deposit more money tax free each year, and if insurance payments could be paid out of HSAs, and if HSA's were allowed to be transferable between family members, a family like mine who does not have employer sponsored insurance could save $1500 a month in insurance and deposit that into their HSA account. That's $18,000 a year. If that family went just a couple or three years without any significant healthcare expenses, they would have enough saved to cover that $40k deductible.

As others have pointed out, the reason we use an insurance model to finance care in the first place is that spending is very concentrated. In any given year, ~80% of our health expenses are coming from only about a fifth of the population.

People who are persistently costly may be a small slice of the population (1.3%) but they're averaging expenses of nearly $88K/year and represent almost 20% of health spending. Which means the spending on those people is a big part of the business model propping up the health care system. If people who aren't sick right now come up with more creative ways to not contribute to the expenses of those who are, the end result is that the care for those people doesn't get paid for. Which means, beyond that being bad for them, the finances holding up our health system in its current incarnation begin to crumble.

There's always going to be more people not in the hospital than in the hospital at any given time. If people not in the hospital right now start reasoning "why should I pay for people who are in the hospital right now, when I'm not in the hospital right now?" then there's not going to be a hospital for very long. So the money you saved over a period of several years by not contributing to those in the hospital isn't going to matter much when the time comes and there's no hospital for you to spend it at.

Changing how you pay for healthcare does not address the problems causing healthcare costs to rise.

Changing who pays may or may not have an impact.

But changing how you pay (regardless of who the "you" here is) can: Changing The Way Doctors Are Paid Made Patients Healthier And Saved Money, Study Finds
 
States regulate who gets access to their state market. If insurance companies were free to sell their product across all state lines, there would be competition. That's how ALL markets work. And the rates for catastrophic insurance weren't any higher for women than for men.

Selling health insurance across state lines doesn't lower costs or improve choice

To date, six states have enacted laws to allow cross-state sales: Georgia, Kentucky, Maine, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wyoming. Yet none of these states has had a single new insurer enter its market because of its law. When asked about their laws, state officials and insurance industry experts in those states agreed that establishing a competitive provider network is the primary barrier to new market entrants. They also observed that the sheer complexity of how insurance products are developed, priced, and regulated makes it difficult to establish a single cross-state framework for consumer protection.
 
six states won't do it. I agree with that. It needs to be national to work.

The point is that "If insurance companies were free to sell their product across all state lines, there would be competition" is demonstrably false. Payers are reluctant to enter new markets for reasons unrelated to any regulatory barriers, as every state that has opened its market to out-of-state payers has discovered. The real motivation behind the approach you're suggesting is backdoor deregulation, it's not about competition.
 
I'm glad you brought up food as an example here, because it's one I commonly bring up myself when the argument gets made that the market is unable to meet needs, and therefore provision of needs should be taken care of by the state.

Out of curiosity, how familiar are you with the history of nationalizing food production?

There is just about no one suggesting "nationalizing" the healthcare system. That would, I assume, mean replacing private hospitals with government owned ones, government owned drug companies, government-employed doctors and nurses, and all the rest. That doesn't fairly describe the Medicare for all proposals which is the most extreme option as far as government involvement. Even with a single payer (Medicare), the provider side is still privately controlled, and would respond to market pressures, where to put a clinic/hospital/p, how many to hire, what drugs to prescribe, innovative surgery techniques, etc. and is nothing like a nationalization of the system.

To put it simply, "provision of needs" by government is completely different than government paying for what the market provides.
 
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Again, Cuba is not an anarchist society. That doesn't mean that their collectively provided medical training would be out of the question for a stateless society.
By "collectively provided", do you mean "state provided"?
 
By "collectively provided", do you mean "state provided"?

No. What constitutes a state is a singular, monolithic legal system that possesses dominion over all the people in a certain geographic area. A stateless society merely means an end to coercive hierarchies, not an end to cooperation and exchange. In the Chiapas autonomous region of Mexico, multiple communities work together to equitably distribute land and necessary resources among residents. As for how they handle their healthcare, they literally just give the stuff away for free; they also provide free medical education, and the two combined practices have allowed them to both keep up with demand for medical care in their own communities, and to provide medical outreach to neighboring communities. The World Health Organization has some fairly positive words for the system. https://www.who.int/social_determinants/resources/csdh_media/autonomy_mexico_2007_en.pdf
 
No. What constitutes a state is a singular, monolithic legal system that possesses dominion over all the people in a certain geographic area. A stateless society merely means an end to coercive hierarchies, not an end to cooperation and exchange. In the Chiapas autonomous region of Mexico, multiple communities work together to equitably distribute land and necessary resources among residents. As for how they handle their healthcare, they literally just give the stuff away for free; they also provide free medical education, and the two combined practices have allowed them to both keep up with demand for medical care in their own communities, and to provide medical outreach to neighboring communities. The World Health Organization has some fairly positive words for the system. https://www.who.int/social_determinants/resources/csdh_media/autonomy_mexico_2007_en.pdf

I was referring to your statement about Cuba's "collectively provided" medical training. That means "state provided" by the Cuban government, right?
 
I was referring to your statement about Cuba's "collectively provided" medical training. That means "state provided" by the Cuban government, right?

Oh, my bad! Yes, the system employed in Cuba is, in fact, managed through the Castro regime, if I'm not mistaken. The similar Zapatista system in Chiapas, Mexico is not state provided.
 
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