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for/ against Affirmative Action?

Repubteen

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Are you for or Against/for Affirmative Action? Give Reasons.....Why/Why not
 

Schweddy

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Against it.

It was well needed at one time. But, alas we have matured as a nation (regardless what the dems think).

But now it is a free ride for many minorites.
 

freedom69714

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Some good reason for affirative action

White alway have AFFIRMATIVE ACTION exept their CALL IT NEPTISUM

Plus the fact if two people of EQUIL Quaracation can to APPLY for a job at DEBATE POLITICS one WHITE one BLACK whice one would get the JOB??
Muiltply that by MILLIONS and you will have your answer ALL I ASK IS FOR YOU TO BE HONEST WITH SELF

Also Boston Police just said they are LOOKING into getting RID of their STUPID civil service test because no where eles in the WORKING WORK do simply get a JOB by how many POINTS you get on a TEST !!.

It does not take into account your WORK ETHIC , or how you DEAL WITH PEOPLE , or 100's of other things
"""" JUST A STUPID SCORE """"

AND YES I'm a WHITE MALE

With an OPEN MIND and POOR SPELLING


freedom 69
 

Squawker

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I think even prominent Blacks are beginning to see that Affirmative action is not working in the best interest of minorities. When minorities are accepted at colleges with lower SAT scores just because of the color of their skin. That is discrimination. Some of the people who have high SAT scores can’t get in because of the color of their skin. That is discrimination. A high percentage of these minorities fail because they are not academically equal to other students. The same thing goes in the work force. If I was more qualified for a job and an Hispanic was hired because the company had to fill a quota for minorities, I think I would be more inclined to resent Hispanics. The goal of ending discrimination this way hasn’t worked. This is a good example of two wrongs not making a right. It isn’t ok to discriminate against white people either.
 

skabanger13

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I am agents affirmative action, we strive for a equal society, its not fare for a white man to get a job because of the color of his skin, nore is it fare for a minority to get a job because theirs a quota to be met. I believe jobs, and schools should go by test scores and who the most qualified. You see all the minority groups and feminists preaching equal rights but that isn't a one way argument, if you truly want an equal society, which means every one regardless of color, nationality, or religious preference, than affirmative action if the wrong means of getting that. Honestly if i wore to get into collage are get a job knowing i got it based on the color of my skin and not the fact that i was the best Candide it wouldn't make me feal to good.
 
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Affirmative action is a monumental time period when blacks were considered equal. I'm all for affirmative action. It is great to be an American because of the many laws, and protections for the minority. I believe that there will be a time period in the future where these kind of subjects will not be addressed. There is a problem, and a few transparancies with affirmative action today. Some research i have done on affirmative action shows that in being a white male applying for law school, the minority has an up on you. This is even in regards too if your scores on testing, and grades are all similar. I wish that there was a better way of measuring acceptance into law school.
 

craigfarmer

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Affirmative Action is not only a necessary component in our society, it should be extended.

As a society we all benefit when every member has an equal/full chance to reach their goals/dreams. It is when individuals seeking their own self-improvement are successful, that we as a nation proceed. They profit initially, and then eventually we all do. This is true for business, health-care, education, etc. When people are locked out of the system because of any reason including discrimination, we lose whatever good they could have offered, and often have to pay social costs for their lack of productivity.

Imagine all of the improvements, inventions, and other great occurrences we've missed out on because of various indivdiuals's either lack of opportunity or overt discrimination.

So the reason to use preferences is for the good of the nation in the long-run.

It should be expanded to include any person of any race or group or ideology, or part of the country that is not receiving a fair shot in the market-place.


I think conservatives should be given preference at liberal schools.

I think liberals should be given preference in business.

Women, ethnic minorities, rural dwellers, etc.

If we all agree we love this country and its' potential, and that "life" is not fair for many people for various reasons. We as sober-minded adults should be able to agree to help equal the playing field.

The help should be aimed to give a fair chance. Equal opportunity not Equal outcomes.

We have to accept that many people excel in one area and are terrible in another, and we shouldn't try to fit a round peg into a square. Yet, we should make sure that when people fail or fall short it is not because they didn't have a legitimate chance.

We should even include electoral politics.

Find ways to help a person from Utah become President. Do we really think people from small states should have to overcome such tremendous hurdles, just to get an outside shot? Meanwhile, politicians from larger states automatically get included in the discussion.

Find ways to help a poor Indian-American run for the Senate in Maryland.

We all should be open-minded in understanding the value of our diversity and potential. This means including race and gender as one of many other factors that define who we are, and not letting the discussion whittle down to personal antecdotes of abuse/mistreatment.

Craig Farmer
making the word "liberal" safe again!
 

Schweddy

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In a LONG ago thread... if I requested a job at a Chinese grocery store and they refuse to give me a job (say I had 10 years sacking experience, but do not speak the lang).

Could I sue for reverse descrimination being a caucasian male?
 

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You made some good points Craig. A couple things stood out for me.
We as sober-minded adults should be able to agree to help equal the playing field.
The help should be aimed to give a fair chance. Equal opportunity not Equal outcomes.
When we “equal” the playing field by lowering the standards for minority groups, how is that in their best interests? Should we not be trying to raise the bar so that they can compete equally at a higher level? The system hasn’t worked the way it was intended to. I think what we need to do is make sure we support school vouchers and the no child left behind act. The problem is they are not getting the proper education in the elementary schools, so they can’t compete when it comes to getting into a college and succeeding.
We have to accept that many people excel in one area and are terrible in another, and we shouldn't try to fit a round peg into a square. Yet, we should make sure that when people fail or fall short it is not because they didn't have a legitimate chance.
If they are given a chance and still don’t make it because they are not adequately prepared, we haven’t achieved anything and wasted a lot of money that could be put to better use.
 

shuamort

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How are we defining Affirmative Action here?

Different Definitions of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION:

Positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of prejudice. When numerical goals are set, they are set according to the group's representation in the applicant pool rather than the group's representation in the general population. For example, a medical school with an affirmative action program would seek to admit members of an underrepresented group in proportion to their representation in the population of those who had completed pre-medical requirements and wished to attend medical school. Affirmative action should be distinguished from reparations.
onlineethics.org/glossary.html

Those positive steps taken by an employer to ensure the provision of equal employment opportunity. Affirmative action regulations cover minority persons, women, persons with disabilities, Vietnam-era veterans, and special disabled veterans.
www.asu.edu/aad/manuals/spp/spp002.html

Proactive action to accomplish the purposes of a program which is designed to increase the employment opportunities of certain groups, which may involve goals, timetables, or specifically outlined steps to be undertaken to assure that objectives are reached. The Americans with Disabilities Act does not mandate affirmative action for persons with disabilities, but does require that covered entities ensure nondiscrimination. Title 5, Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act does require that affirmative action be taken in employment of persons with disabilities by Federal contractors.
oeop.larc.nasa.gov/glossary.html

A set of proactive measures to counteract the effects of past and present discrimination, intended or unintended, in employment and program delivery. The groups protected by a series of federal legislation include: women, Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Native Americans, Vietnam era veterans, special disabled veterans, and individuals with disabilities.
edn.ag.ohio-state.edu/newpersonnel/glossary_of_extension_terms.htm

Proactive action to accomplish the purposes of a program which is designed to increase the employment opportunities of certain groups, which may involve goals, timetables, or specifically outlined steps to be undertaken to assure that objectives are reached. The Americans with Disabilities Act does not mandate affirmative action for persons with disabilities, but does require that covered entities ensure nondiscrimination. Title 5, Section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act does require that affirmative action be taken in employment of persons with disabilities by Federal contractors. Topic areas:Accountability and Evaluation, Operations Management and Leadership
www.nonprofitbasics.org/TopicAreaGlossary.aspx

Measures taken to correct the effects of past discrimination in hiring and promotion
www.onlinewbc.gov/docs/starting/glossary.html

A policy seeking to compensate victims of previous racial and sexual discrimination, to remedy lingering effects of such discrimination, or to combat ongoing institutionalized and unintentional discriminatory practices by providing reverse preferences favoring members of classes previously disadvantaged.
members.aol.com/lshauser2/lexicon.html

Action taken by a government or private institution to make up for past discrimination in education, work, or promotion on the basis of gender, race, ethnic origin, religion, or disability.
hrusa.org/hrh-and-n/Part-5/6_glossary.htm

any action intended to correct effects of past discrimination, to eliminate present discrimination, or to prevent discrimination for the future.
www.brockport.edu/~hr/GLOSSARY.HTM

A program that became law with the passage of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act of 1972, whereby employers, labor unions, employment agencies, and labor management apprenticeship programs must actively seek to eliminate minorities. Although Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 had outlawed future discriminations in employment practices, it had done nothing to redress already existing imbalances. The 1972 law, later strengthened by executive orders, requires employers to draw up a detailed written plan for equalizing economic salaries, training programs, fringe benefits and other conditions of employment. These plans included numerical goals and timetables for achieving such changes.
jobs.utah.gov/wi/GlossaryofTerms.asp

*. Positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of prejudice. When numerical goals are set, they are set according to the group's representation in the applicant pool rather than the group's representation in the general population. For example, a medical school with an affirmative action program would seek to admit members of an underrepresented group in proportion to their representation in the population of those who had completed pre-medical requirements and wished to attend medical school. Affirmative action should be distinguished from reparations.
www.unmc.edu/ethics/words.html

Methods used to achieve the objectives of the military equal opportunity program. Processes, activities, and systems designed to prevent, identify, and eliminate unlawful discriminatory treatment as it affects the recruitment, training, assignment, utilization, promotion, and retention of military personnel.
www.hill.af.mil/me/TermsDefinitions.htm

United States regulations require employers to prepare affirmative action plans that are intended to provide equal employment representation within their workforce, with respect to ethnicity, gender and age.
humanresources.syr.edu/Resources/Library/sysgloss.html

actions by employers to seek out actively minorities and women for jobs and to provide them with training and other opportunities for promotion
www.wwnorton.com/stiglitzwalsh/economics/glossary.htm

This federal law was designed to end discrimination against minorities, and it requires that minority students and job applicants receive the same opportunities as other students and job applicants. The statements declaring businesses to be equal opportunity employers and schools to provide equal opportunity education, comply with affirmative action.
www.usoe.k12.ut.us/ate/wbl/Manual/Glossary.htm

Results-oriented actions a contractor (such as the University), by virtue of its federal contracts, must take to ensure Equal Employment Opportunity.
baowww.uoregon.edu/glossary.htm

affirmative action refers to active efforts to locate and hire members of underrepresented groups.
lms.thomsonelearning.com/hbcp/glossary/glossary.taf

The use of racial, ethnic or linguistic preferences in recruitment to jobs, hiring, admissions and contracting. This positive discrimination favours those who tend to (or could) suffer from discrimination.
www.eurocontrol.int/eatmp/glossary/terms/terms-01.htm

A program designed to increase the participation rates of targeted groups.
www.hr.murdoch.edu.au/policy/PZ0003.html

Positive efforts to recruit minority group members or women for jobs, promotions, and educational opportunities. (See 233, 371)
highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0072435569/student_view0/glossary.html

the effort made by an employer to increase employment opportunities for people who belong to a visible minority who are not adequately represented in the firm's labour force. In the U.S., legislation has mandated that certain groups, such as Afro-Americans, will receive this protection in the workplace.
courses.confederationc.on.ca/ge012/global/Glossary/glossary.htm

the steps taken by companies to eliminate the barriers of discrimination that prevent equal opportunity employment to all minorities.
www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/curr_content/paasurvey/entre/Content/glos1.htm

(p. 352) Employment activities designed to "right past wrongs" by increasing opportunities for minorities and women.
www.mhhe.com/business/busadmin/nickels_6_ub/student/olc/glossary.mhtml

Government programs intended to assure minorities of equal hiring, educational, and other admission opportunities. Introduced in the United States by President Johnson under the Civil Rights Act, signed on July 02nd, 1964. First enforced on September 24th, 1965 under Executive Order 11246…
www.jdar.org/dico/dico/A.htm

program in areas such as employment and education to provide more opportunities for members of groups that faced discrimination in the past
www.ic.sunysb.edu/Stu/mmunzer/glossary.html

a policy designed to redress past discrimination against women and minority groups through measures to improve their economic and educational opportunities; "affirmative action has been extremely controversial and was challenged in 1978 in the Bakke decision"
www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn
 

craigfarmer

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Squawker said:
You made some good points Craig. A couple things stood out for me.
When we ?equal? the playing field by lowering the standards for minority groups, how is that in their best interests? Should we not be trying to raise the bar so that they can compete equally at a higher level? The system hasn?t worked the way it was intended to. I think what we need to do is make sure we support school vouchers and the no child left behind act. The problem is they are not getting the proper education in the elementary schools, so they can?t compete when it comes to getting into a college and succeeding.
If they are given a chance and still don?t make it because they are not adequately prepared, we haven?t achieved anything and wasted a lot of money that could be put to better use.


First of all, the "standards" for most jobs are subjective and fluid. Television personality, editor, customer service rep., manager, artists, writers, consultants, etc. In these types of jobs we need to make sure people who could do the jobs just as well aren't being excluded for extraneous reasons.

On jobs that have more objective standards such as medicine, or business where the standards can be quantified, we need to define clearly what QUALIFIED means. We should make sure that we are doing that correctly. Once we have a group of qualified people. Then race, geography, ideology, economic background, and other group status id. should be one of many factors in making a decision.

It's clear G. Bush does what I'm suggesting: Colin Powel, Gonzalez, Rice, were all qualified for their positions. So were numerous white people. I believe he made the calculation that for the world image, and the benefit of citizens here, that it was good to show people of color and women in foreign policy positions. THAT is Afir. Action.

I would agree to do the same with a Conservative in Health and Human Services or at the U.N. like the Bolton nomination currently. Why send another moderate/lliberal to the U.N. or the E.P.A. when we could get a Conservative in the position. This person is likely to have a different perspective on the same old problems.

If there's an opening in a fortune 500 company in Kansas, and there's one person in the qualified group from rural Kansas, where no one in that town has ever made it in the business world, I think we should give them a preference for the good of all rural people. It benefits us all eventually when every rural person believes they can reach their God-given potential.

We need to stop focusing on women and minorities especially, and focus on what's best for America. And that is as much as possible having every American believing and seeing, that if they work hard, they can reach the American dream.

Craig Farmer
making the word "liberal" safe again!
http://www.newliberals.org
 

Squawker

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First of all, the "standards" for most jobs are subjective and fluid. Television personality, editor, customer service rep., manager, artists, writers, consultants, etc. In these types of jobs we need to make sure people who could do the jobs just as well aren't being excluded for extraneous reasons.
Yes, as long as a “quota” doesn’t interfere with the employers freedom to make necessary business decisions that doesn’t have anything to do with race.
It's clear G. Bush does what I'm suggesting: Colin Powel, Gonzalez, Rice, were all qualified for their positions. So were numerous white people. I believe he made the calculation that for the world image, and the benefit of citizens here, that it was good to show people of color and women in foreign policy positions. THAT is Afir. Action.
I disagree. They didn’t get where they are today because some white man gave them a hand up. They worked hard by themselves and would have done so without affirmative action. I understand you think President Bush was calculating when he chose them, but he had a deep respect for them, trusted them, was friends with them, and knew they were the best choice for the job. The color of their skin, or ethnic origin, was secondary.

I would agree to do the same with a Conservative in Health and Human Services or at the U.N. like the Bolton nomination currently. Why send another moderate/lliberal to the U.N. or the E.P.A. when we could get a Conservative in the position. This person is likely to have a different perspective on the same old problems.
I could see the vapors emanating from the UN all the way up here in Maine. :D

We need to stop focusing on women and minorities especially, and focus on what's best for America. And that is as much as possible having every American believing and seeing, that if they work hard, they can reach the American dream.
Bravo ! :applaud This is 2005. I think our country has progressed beyond the KKK Byrd mentality. How that man stayed in the Senate all these years is beyond me. We will probably have small pockets of discrimination forever. Make sure everyone has the same access to college grants, loans, and scholarships, and leave it to the individual to meet the goal of admission, and accomplish their dream by themselves, on their own merit.
 
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