Fellow Progressives: Lay off the police unions

[vegas giants]

Public unions like teachers, police, prison guards, shouldn't be allowed.


They use collective bargaining against taxpayers, you and me.

It's not against you. It's for them

 

[Gaius46]

There is absolutely nothing illegal or improper with you handing your employer a personal check for 1000 dollars. You cannot waive receipt of your wage, but you can hand some of it back as a gift. Not a lot of us tend do it, but an employee of MacDonald's can send a personal check or cash to his corporation. There is nothing illegal with unions doing the very same thing. Transparency is what matters, and that is ensured under campaign finance statutes if it involves a politician or public employee union.

Bribe involves specific quid pro quo communication with a check. And that is.

I’m not aware of people routinely sending money back to their employer. That said it may not be illegal but there are likely internal regulations forbidding it. In every organization I’ve ever worked for a person may not buy their supervisor a gift, for example, because of the obvious potential conflict that arises.

And even if they did so there is a world of difference between an employee giving $1000 to a corporation and a union and its members giving hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to the campaigns of people who then oversee them.

My 1000 dollars buys me nothing but if you seriously think a mayor who got into office in part by getting a wad of cash from the police union won’t be influenced them and potentially put the needs of the union ahead of the needs of the electorate you are seriously naive.

 

[TheGoverness]

Exactly, the crux of the issue, I think, is that the police are in their own little societies outside of the society they police. This inherent tribalism is what is creating an us vs them mentality that promotes these kinds of abuses. There needs to be forced social mixing.

They need to live in the communities that they are supposed to be serving.

 

[SoCal]

These aren't the coal mine days of the 1890s. All unions do is breed mediocrity, shield bad employees who should otherwise be shown the door, and act a reliable voting bloc for politicians--- mainly democrats.

No wonder you applaud them.

It might not be the 1890's, but corporate greed will never stop.

Keep your thumbs on the, "bad employees" (many being minimum wage workers), who elect Democrats who's first priority are American's employees. The alternative are Repubs who's first priority is corporate welfare in exchange for funding their campaigns.

In case you're unaware, it's our small businesses that run America and which party tries to fund small bushiness verse our largest corporations? Plus, regardless of who creates more jobs, small independent businesses provide diversity, we don't need huge corporations merging into ever larger corporations until well'l have, one for farming, one for meat processing, one for buying online, one for?

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.
Privatizing profits and socializing losses.

 

[btthegreat]

I’m not aware of people routinely sending money back to their employer. That said it may not be illegal but there are likely internal regulations forbidding it. In every organization I’ve ever worked for a person may not buy their supervisor a gift, for example, because of the obvious potential conflict that arises.

And even if they did so there is a world of difference between an employee giving $1000 to a corporation and a union and its members giving hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to the campaigns of people who then oversee them.

My 1000 dollars buys me nothing but if you seriously think a mayor who got into office in part by getting a wad of cash from the police union won’t be influenced them and potentially put the needs of the union ahead of the needs of the electorate you are seriously naive.

'Influence' is not bribing and you damn well know it. Unless there is a discussion of a vote for money direct exchange, there is no bribe. Have we discovered that money buys influence? I have a whole list of stories to tell about businesses that send those same checks to politicians and the zero that libertarians will want to anyone to do about that. If you are unwilling to regulate that , leave the police union alone. An organization that advocates for rank and file cops is far less dangerous to the body politic than a host of others who spend fourscore their money on any election.

Any libertarian who wants to pass a law to ban public employee unions, is not a libertarian. Any libertarian who wants to impede a public employee union from donating to a political campaign is also not a libertarian.

 

[Gaius46]

'Influence' is not bribing and you damn well know it. Unless there is a discussion of a vote for money direct exchange, there is no bribe. Have we discovered that money buys influence? I have a whole list of stories to tell about businesses that send those same checks to politicians and the zero that libertarians will want to anyone to do about that. If you are unwilling to regulate that , leave the police union alone. An organization that advocates for rank and file cops is far less dangerous to the body politic than a host of others who spend fourscore their money on any election.

Any libertarian who wants to pass a law to ban public employee unions, is not a libertarian. Any libertarian who wants to impede a public employee union from donating to a political campaign is also not a libertarian.

Spare me the libertarian rant. Unions in practice are anti libertarian because compulsory membership is anti free association. Public service unions specifically are artificial monopolies and not subject to market forces. Wages and work rules have no free market component informing how they are determined. Police unions specifically and because they are monopolies force work rules into contracts that make it next to impossible to fire bad cops at the expense of the rights and safety of the citizenry.

And again private companies are constituents. Public sector unions represent employees. They are not the same thing.

And stop harping on my use of the word bribe. You are right legally it isn’t a bribe. Call it what you want. In practice employees pay their bosses lots of money and get favorable treatment. Would the shateholders allow the UAW to do that with GM?

 

[Court Jester]

It might not be the 1890's, but corporate greed will never stop.

Profit motive is why were aren't still living in trees and peeling bananas with our feet.

Keep your thumbs on the, "bad employees" (many being minimum wage workers), who elect Democrats who's first priority are American's employees.

Newsflash! Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be for primary income earners. Minimum wage jobs are generally meant for part time students, retired people looking to earn a few extra bucks, and 2nd or 3rd household income earners.

Anyone who goal was to get zero education and skills and is stuck in a minimum wage job, I really doubt that 2 dollars more will really help them figure life out.

The alternative are Repubs who's first priority is corporate welfare in exchange for funding their campaigns.

Where do you think the majority of the tax base comes from? Starbucks baristas and Taco Bell employees, or the people earning higher middle class salaries working as engineers, skilled professionals, and such?

In case you're unaware, it's our small businesses that run America and which party tries to fund small bushiness verse our largest corporations?

In case you are unaware it is the tax and spend and regulatory heavy democrats who kill small businesses--- or make it harder for them to get started.

Plus, regardless of who creates more jobs, small independent businesses provide diversity, we don't need huge corporations merging into ever larger corporations until well'l have, one for farming, one for meat processing, one for buying online, one for?

We don't have that, so stop spreading FUD (fear-uncertainty-doubt).

 

[Court Jester]

Wow....you hate the right of Americans to freely organize and represent themselves

I'm not against the right, but in terms of public employee unions getting in cahoots with liberal politicians, that is un American.

Besides, anyone worth their own weight negotiates their own deals. Unions only breed mediocrity.

 

[Airyaman]

Unions are horrible. All of them. They protect bad employees and promote mediocrity at best.

 

[Linc]

Never underestimate the ability of the moronic left to piss away an election. Beginning with the 1976/1977 school year, it took until my 4th year of teaching until I grossed over $10,000.

I’d like to see any one of you stupid ****-heads be a policeman, fireman, teacher, nurse, or any other first responders on that salary paying back college loans. As it is, you’re all too chicken-**** to be a first-responder in the first place.

The word is REFORM, dumb ****s, not DISMANTLE. Way to continue to push away the Union Democrats that flipped from Obama to Trump. Way to scare the **** out of suburban women.

And on the day Biden has his biggest lead. Kiss that good-bye, dip-****s.

 

[btthegreat]

Spare me the libertarian rant. Unions in practice are anti libertarian because compulsory membership is anti free association. Public service unions specifically are artificial monopolies and not subject to market forces. Wages and work rules have no free market component informing how they are determined. Police unions specifically and because they are monopolies force work rules into contracts that make it next to impossible to fire bad cops at the expense of the rights and safety of the citizenry.

And again private companies are constituents. Public sector unions represent employees. They are not the same thing.

And stop harping on my use of the word bribe. You are right legally it isn’t a bribe. Call it what you want. In practice employees pay their bosses lots of money and get favorable treatment. Would the shateholders allow the UAW to do that with GM?

We know that public service unions are not subject to 'market forces' because of the structure of the local government unit that employs them but then again almost nothing else is either - unless you are naïve enough to think the modern corporation is subject to market forces! But we both know both unions and corporations are structured to bind separate market units into one legal personality, one legal unit thus reducing legal liability of shareholders/ members . Not much market force at work in a world full of holding companies, mergers, insolvency plans, and modern anti-trust laws.

That 'market force' ship sailed long long ago over the course of two centuries of collusion between governments and the business class. The less market force at work, the more you need unions, regardless of whether your employer is public or private.

 

[Gaius46]

We know that public service unions are not subject to 'market forces' because of the structure of the local government unit that employs them but then again almost nothing else is either - unless you are naïve enough to think the modern corporation is subject to market forces! But we both know both unions and corporations are structured to bind separate market units into one legal personality, one legal unit thus reducing legal liability of shareholders/ members . Not much market force at work in a world full of holding companies, mergers, insolvency plans, and modern anti-trust laws.

That 'market force' ship sailed long long ago over the course of two centuries of collusion between governments and the business class. The less market force at work, the more you need unions, regardless of whether your employer is public or private.

We’re going to have to agree to disagree since we’re clearly not going to change each other’s minds.

I think we can agree that there are serious problems with the way policing is done. Let’s see if unions actively help or hinder the fixing of those problems.

 

[Moderate Right]

Public employee unions are facing enough attacks these days without having to deal with people on their own side at them. Do not take pubic employee unions for granted. They are worth every penny of your tax payer dollars to keep the right-wing from stealing elections in blue states and large cities. We need to focus on what the real problem is: racism in society. Don't allow the GOP and alt right to change the narrative.

Oh but it is so fun to watch liberals attack liberals, liberals burning down liberal cities, liberals vandalizing and looting liberal cities, liberals demanding the police be defunded, liberals attacking liberal mayors and governors, liberals attacking unions, and liberals blaming Trump for liberals attacking liberals. I just get my bowl of popcorn and enjoy the show.

 

[SoCal]

Profit motive is why were aren't still living in trees and peeling bananas with our feet.

I agree, everyone's looking to make a profit, from the bottom to the top, greed effects everyone. But who's greed poses a greater threat to America, the rich and powerful or minimum wage earners?

...Newsflash! Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be for primary income earners. Minimum wage jobs are generally meant for part time students, retired people looking to earn a few extra bucks, and 2nd or 3rd household income earners.

Anyone who goal was to get zero education and skills and is stuck in a minimum wage job, I really doubt that 2 dollars more will really help them figure life out.

Minimum wage job meant for a particular segment of society is a great theory, but like the conservative, libertarian and reactionary theory that you don't need taxes to run a country, it just doesn't work in the real world.

Don't confuse a minimum wage with a living wage. Two dollars an hour, earning $320 more a month, will go a long way for folks living paycheck to paycheck. Unless you're making the libertarian and reactionary claim that the poor refuse to work because they're given to much, 'free stuff', tell it to the 40 million Americans who go hungry. Their goal isn't trying to figure life out, they're just trying to survive it...

 

[Logician Man]

Oh but it is so fun to watch liberals attack liberals, liberals burning down liberal cities, liberals vandalizing and looting liberal cities, liberals demanding the police be defunded, liberals attacking liberal mayors and governors, liberals attacking unions, and liberals blaming Trump for liberals attacking liberals. I just get my bowl of popcorn and enjoy the show.

You know what isn't funny, or fun to watch? People such as yourself who post " It is better to elect a pedophile than a Democrat." Is that really the message you want our/your children, grand children, and great-grand children to take to heart, and embrace?

 

[Nickyjo]

At the center of the current law enforcement problems are TWO key factors:

1) qualified immunity for police officers

2) PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS and the ridiculous contracts they have had approved largely BY LIBERAL DEMOCRAT politicians which have been in exchange for votes from those powerful public employee unions.

I do not like any unions, but there is a vast difference between unions which negotiate for workers with private corporations and businesses. In a business the management will not usually agree to union contracts which will eventually cause their business to go bankrupt. But when politicians agree to ridiculous unsustainable public employee union contracts for pay and pensions they do so on the backs of taxpayers. And then when they cannot be sustained they just go back to taxpayers and ask to raise taxes.

Liberals and progressives can complain about police agencies and police unions, but they created the very conditions which lead to a lack of accountability and abuse.

Here is how a right thinking politician deals with public employee unions.

Yeah the guy who fired all those people who had legit gripes about their working conditions. (He was great as well on civil rights and support for death squads, who in other countries deal with unions even more effectively.)

I used to be a public employee. I saw the harm that sexual harassment or corrupt actions could do, when their wasnt union protection for employees who wanted to blow the whistle.